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Defense of the Post Trib Rapture


George

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 Revelation 14:13   And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

 

The serpent says "You don't need works, you are washed clean from the blood of Christ, your sins are covered, do as you like, your sins are already forgiven"

God says your "works" follow you to the grave.

We are not "saved" because of our works, but when we do follow Christ, those works we produce are the fruits of the spirit, of what type it was. 

I.e.  Who did we "labour for"?  Isn't that working?  Did we labour for the truth, so we could find it, or for other things?

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On 12/8/2016 at 9:43 AM, Quasar93 said:

Scriptural proof for the pre-tribrapture of the Church 

The Scriptures are crystal clear where Jesus will meet His Church, in 1 Thess.4:17: "After that, we who are still alive and are left, WILL BE CAUGHT UP TOGETHER with them in the clouds TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. And so we will be with the Lord forever." In the FIRST of His TWO comings, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16, yet to take place, confirming Jn.14:2-3, 28! From where the Church is seen in heaven BEFORE the tribulation begins, in Rev.4:1-2. Where Jesus used John to symbolically represent the Church. Confirming 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8! Where the Church is seen in heaven later, at the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus. While the tribulation is taking place on earth, recorded in Rev.19:7-8. From where Jesus will return to the earth in the SECOND, of His TWO comings, seven years later, yet to take place, WITH HIS CHURCH, riding white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, in His armies from heaven, recorded in 19:14, confirming Zech.14:4-5 and Acts 1:6; 1:11; 2:29-30 and 15:16! From which the above Scriptures leave no other options!

The difference between the pre-trib rapture of the Church, as delineated above, and the SECOND coming of Jesus are the following facts:

1. Jesus returns to the earth in His second coming, recorded in Zech.14:4-5 and in Acts 1:11.

2. No one meets Jesus in the sky when He returns in His second coming, recorded in Rev.19:14, as they will when He returns for the first time, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16!.

3. Jesus will return from the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus, in heaven, in His second coming, to the earth, with His Church, recorded in Rev.19:14, He came for in His first coming, in the clouds of the sky, seven years before, recorded in Jn.14:2-3, 28, 1 Thess.4:16-17 and 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8.

4. No one returns to the present heaven at Jesus second coming to the earth, because He has come to establish His 1,000 year reign on the throne of David, in the restored kingdom of Israel, as recorded in Acts 1:6; 2:29-30; 15:16; Zech.6:12-13 described in Ez.40-47 and Rev.20:6. In addition to the present heaven and earth being destroyed and will pass away, as recorded in 2 Pet.3:7 and in Rev.21:1.


Quasar93

1. There is only 1 time written in God's Word that Jesus comes to gather His Church, and that is the event of 1 Thess.4 and 1 Cor.15 on the "last trump" (or 7th trumpet), on the final day of this world. That also is when the Biblical "day of the Lord" will occur burning the elements of man's works off the earth. It will end the time of great tribulation upon the saints.

2. Apostle Paul in 1 Thess.4 did not cover the 'when' of Jesus' coming to gather His Church, but instead he was covering the 'how'. Paul says there Jesus on His DESCENDING to this earth He brings the "asleep" saints with Him when He comes, and then the saints still alive on earth are "caught up" with them in the clouds. It does NOT say they all go into Heaven from there. Instead, God showed in Zechariah 14 that we all go with Jesus to the area of Jerusalem on earth. Thus this rapture event for the alive saints is an event similar to when after Apostle Philip had baptized the Ethiopian, Philip was then caught up and relocated to another area on earth (Acts 8:39-40).

3. Per Matt.22, the wedding supper at Christ's return happens when the guests are seated in their wedding garments. Those without the garments that try to sneak in are cast out. In Rev.21 we are shown new Jerusalem coming down out of Heaven as The Lamb's wife, and God's bride. In 2 Cor.11, Paul said he wanted to present us to Christ as "a chaste virgin". All these symbolic metaphors to a wedding, bride, and faithful virgins represent the sole one-time event of the return of Jesus Christ to this earth, to the area of Jerusalem, with gathering His faithful Church to Him and starting to reign for His 1,000 years Millennium of Rev.20. That of course is to occur on the last day of this world, at the end of the tribulation, which is when the "day of the Lord" events occur.

4. No one goes into Heaven at Jesus' coming of 1 Thess.4 either, since that event is the same event of Matt.24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 which Jesus said will occur after that tribulation of those days. The Matt.24 version covers the gathering of the "asleep" saints He brings with Him from Heaven, and the Mark 13 version covers the catching up of the alive saints on earth, which is in perfect agreement with what Paul taught in 1 Thess.4.

Jesus comes only ONE time, and that is the time He gathers His Church and also defeats His enemies on earth, and begins His 1,000 years reign on earth with His elect kings and priests. The timing for that He showed happens at the "as a thief in the night" timing. In 1 Thess.5 and 2 Pet.3:10, we were shown the "day of the Lord" will come "as a thief in the night". Jesus also warned His Church on the 6th Vial that He comes "as a thief", and to keep their garments lest they appear in shame. The very next event to occur after that is the 7th Vial with the battle of Armageddon, which is the final battle of this present world that will end Antichrist's reign on earth. That timing is... the "day of the Lord" timing of the OT prophets where God He pours out His Wrath upon the earth on the wicked on that final day of this present world.

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On 7/4/2013 at 0:27 PM, Elhanan said:

There are weaknesses in your pointing out the weaknesses of the post-trib stance.  You state that "those who are in Christ are not under condemnation and will never experience the wrath of God" using Rom 8:1 as your reference.  The context of Rom 8:1 is a salvivic issue not a wrath issue. We are alive in the Spirit and free in Christ and therefore not condemned to spiritual death.  There is no reference to wrath here except that one might infer that God's wrath remains on the unsaved.  Furthermore, the claim that God's wrath is never directed at his people is a questionable one.  Israel experienced God's wrath while living through the plagues of Egypt.  One might explain that God's wrath was directed at the Egyptians and not the Israelites - which is true. However even so, there are multitudes of verses in the OT where it specifically attributes God's wrath against his own people as a direct result of their repeated willful disobedience.  In regards to the church, I cannot find anywhere in the NT where it says that the church is immune from the wrath of God and will not experience the manifestations of his wrath upon the earth.  If you find such a scripture, please point it out to me.  Your 2nd objection is weak first of all because it is based upon an argument from silence which is an inherently weak argument to begin with. The claim that the word "church" is not found after the first few chapters of Rev supposedly means that the church is no longer addressed in the tribulation as she has already been raptured.  If that is truly the case, then the same thing would have to be said for some of the Epistles since the word "church" is not found in some of them either such as 1 & 2 Peter.  Using your logic, the letters of 1 & 2 Peter have nothing at all to do with the church - although they do contain that pesky word (for pre-tribbers) again - "saints."

Your argument is also weak, because Apostle Paul did address the subject of God's Wrath not being appointed to His faithful Church. The misunderstanding you and Marv both have is exactly upon whom... is God's Wrath ordained for, what is it, and when is it.

In 1 Thess.5 I'm sure is where Marv is pulling from with the idea that God's Wrath is not upon Christ's faithful Church. He's right, that's where Apostle Paul taught that idea (1 Thess.5:9, and also in 1 Thess.1:10).

1 Thess 1:10
10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, Whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus, Which delivered us from the wrath to come.
KJV

 

That is the wrath of God which Paul was speaking of in 1 Thess.5 that we are not appointed to. Instead, that wrath from God is appointed to the wicked on the last day of this world:

Heb 10:27
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and
fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
KJV

Luke 3:7
7 Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
KJV

Why would Paul use ideas like "fiery" and "which shall devour" in that verse about God's judgment of His adversaries? It's because on the final day of this world, when God's cup of wrath is poured out upon the wicked on the 7th Vial, that is the "day of the Lord" event where Peter showed God's fire will burn the elements of man's works off the earth (see 2 Pet.3:10). Only by knowing what that "day of the Lord" event of God's consuming fire is could one understand what timing Heb.10:27 is actually speaking about.

 

The wrath that we the Church must suffer during the tribulation is Satan's wrath:

Rev 12:12
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you,
having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
KJV

 

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Quote

 

The wrath that we the Church must suffer during the tribulation is Satan's wrath:

Rev 12:12
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you,
 having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
KJV

 

Well said,most can't see that there shall be two tribulations,one of God and one of satan....

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On 10/29/2016 at 9:17 PM, Sister said:

Revelation 14:8   And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

  Revelation 14:9   And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

  Revelation 14:10   The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

  Revelation 14:11   And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

  Revelation 14:12   Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

 

The wrath of God here is given to only those who receive the mark of the beast.

Pre tribbers say, we are not given to wrath, but to salvation. 

God says if you worship the beast and his image, or receive the mark of his name, You WILL be given to his wrath.

Pre-tribbers say, "that's not talking about us, we have been raptured already, that's the others who come to Christ after we've gone"

There's no getting out of it.  The scriptures state "here is the patience of the saints".  You will now see who keeps the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus, and who doesn't.  There will be a division now, and lip service will mean nothing.  It's our actions.
 

Mark 8:35   For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.

I hope you realize there is an entirely different way of looking at this. There will be millions of lukewarm believers who will be left behind. I suspect there will be other believers left behind because they are not watching for His coming.  And there will be millions to know about the rapture but were not ready, but when they see that it has happened, they turn to Jesus then. So there will be millions of saints on the earth during the 70th week. In NO WAY is this proof of a postrib rapture.

Satan is sure that he can cause believers to take the mark and be lost. It probably will happen. Thirst can be a very powerful motivator. So can fear.  As God has told us twice, the tribulation saints will be give over to the power of the Beast. Therefore, if you are thinking you will survive this time, go back and read those verses again. If saints are given over to the power of the Beast, they will be put to death.

In fact, for those who miss the pretrib rapture, losing their head will be the ONLY WAY into heaven from that point.

Did you not realize that Rev. 19 as written makes a posttrib rapture IMPOSSIBLE? The marriage and supper will be in heaven, BEFORE Jesus descends. Are you planning on being there? The raptured believers will already be there in heaven long before jesus descends as shown in Rev. 19.

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On 12/13/2016 at 6:17 PM, Salty said:

Your argument is also weak, because Apostle Paul did address the subject of God's Wrath not being appointed to His faithful Church. The misunderstanding you and Marv both have is exactly upon whom... is God's Wrath ordained for, what is it, and when is it.

In 1 Thess.5 I'm sure is where Marv is pulling from with the idea that God's Wrath is not upon Christ's faithful Church. He's right, that's where Apostle Paul taught that idea (1 Thess.5:9, and also in 1 Thess.1:10).

1 Thess 1:10
10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, Whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus, Which delivered us from the wrath to come.
KJV

 

That is the wrath of God which Paul was speaking of in 1 Thess.5 that we are not appointed to. Instead, that wrath from God is appointed to the wicked on the last day of this world:

Heb 10:27
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and
fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
KJV

Luke 3:7
7 Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
KJV

Why would Paul use ideas like "fiery" and "which shall devour" in that verse about God's judgment of His adversaries? It's because on the final day of this world, when God's cup of wrath is poured out upon the wicked on the 7th Vial, that is the "day of the Lord" event where Peter showed God's fire will burn the elements of man's works off the earth (see 2 Pet.3:10). Only by knowing what that "day of the Lord" event of God's consuming fire is could one understand what timing Heb.10:27 is actually speaking about.

 

The wrath that we the Church must suffer during the tribulation is Satan's wrath:

Rev 12:12
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you,
having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
KJV

 

Sorry, but your theory of "the day of the Lord" does not fit scripture. John is very clear that God's wrath (the day of His wrath) begins at the 6th seal, WAY before the last 24 hour period. Then, the vials of His wrath must come before the final day also. There can be no doubt that the Day of the Lord is an extended period of time taking in the entire 70th week and the millennial reign of Christ.

Finally, if we study 1 Thes. 5, Paul gives is the timing of his rapture.

He tells us a SUDDENLY is coming, at a time of peace and safety: it will be the sudden event of the dead in Christ flying up out of their graves. This event will cause a great earthquake, which is Paul's "sudden destruction," and the first part of the 6th seal.  Just two verses after Paul's classic rapture verse Paul mentions the Day of the Lord. Why? Because the rapture will be the trigger for the day. Then Paul compares the wrath of God to the Day of the Lord.

In short, Paul gives us a perfect paradigm, showing us two kinds of people that get two different results at this sudden event of the dead in Christ rising: those living in the darkness get the sudden destruction earthquake, and since they will not be raptured, they cannot escape. On the other hand, those living in the light of the gospel get "salvation" (get raptured) and get to "live together with Him." Or  from chapter 4, "so shall we ever be with the Lord." 

Paul is telling us that the rapture will come before and as the trigger for the Day.

This fits perfectly with John in Revelation: the rapture will be a moment before the 6th seal. It was no mistake that John saw the raptured church in heaven in the very next chapter.

 

It seems we are in agreement that the rapture comes before the Day.

Edited by iamlamad
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On June 5, 2003 at 6:54 AM, boblandis said:

I just don't see any truth in thr pre-trib rapture in scripture. I believe the church age actually ends the moment Jesus descends from heaven.

That's how I see it too. A straight reading doesn't produce a pre-trib scenario.

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9 minutes ago, Daniel 11:36 said:

Here is the proof of the pre-tribulation event to immortalize those of the past and present [Corinthians 15:20-23; 15:51-58; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1 Thessalonians 5:1-9; Matthew 25:1-13; Revelation 3:10; 4:4; 5:9-14; 12:12; 13:6; 17:14; 19:1-9; 19:14; 20:1-4 .... those on thrones]

Once they are made immortal the tribulation will begin in Revelation chapter 8 and end in Revelation 19:19-21]

Are you trying to give proof of the pre trib rapture?

 

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5 minutes ago, HAZARD said:

 

The Rapture of the Church will occur before the tribulation. The purpose of the rapture is to resurrect the just from the dead and take all the saints out of the world before the tribulation comes, in order that they may have fulfilled in them the purpose for which God has saved them. Jesus told the disciples that some would escape the terrible things that were to transpire on the Earth in the last days. He said, “Pray that you may be accounted worth to escape all these things of, Matt. 24, 25; Luke 21:1-19, 25-28, that shall come to pass, and stand before the Son of man,”  Luke 21:34-36. These two passages in Luke 21:34-36 and John 14:1-3, are the only ones in the Gospels that are clear concerning the Rapture. Jesus did not reveal this, it was revealed by Paul many years later in 1 Cor. 15:51. The disciples did not have the slightest idea as to how they were to escape, unless they thought that Christ would deliver them from these things through His power. The how was not revealed or even mentioned before Paul explained how they were to escape.

This thread was made For people who believe in the Post Trib rapture

George made this thread for those that believe in the Pre Trib rapture 

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On 6/5/2003 at 11:54 AM, boblandis said:

I just don't see any truth in thr pre-trib rapture in scripture. I believe the church age actually ends the moment Jesus descends from heaven.

Well said, in fact that is obvious, the idea of disincarnate spirits (souls) reigning with fully human people, both the lost and saved upon this earth during some 1,000 years, when Christ is ruling from Jerusalem as King, yet at the end of this period when Christ is here on this earth, there is a rebellion against him, oh come on, that's nonsense. So yes I agree with you, at the second coming eternity begins.

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