Defense of the Post Trib Rapture

[Retrobyter]

1 minute ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Retro,

Those in the Body of Christ are NOT resurrected BUT CHANGED.

Also as you can see from Heb. 12: 22 & 23, those who have gone on ahead of us are WITH THE LORD in the angelic realm, and certainly NOT in the grave.

`you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the first-born who are registered in heaven, to God the judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant...` (Heb. 12: 22 & 23)

regards, Marilyn.

Shalom, Marilyn.

Sorry, but in context, Hebrews 12:22-23 is talking about the fact that our future Resurrection is a "DONE DEAL!" It is most certainly NOT a literal thing that we "have come (or 'have already arrived,' as some would interpret this) to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem!"

Look at the context:

Hebrews 11:1-40; 12:1-29; 13:1-14 (KJV)

1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.

3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh. 5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. 6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. 7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. 9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles (tents) with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: 10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God. 11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised. 12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. 15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. 16But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, 18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called: 19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

20 By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come. 21 By faith Jacob, when he was a dying, blessed both the sons of Joseph; and worshipped, leaning upon the top of his staff. 22 By faith Joseph, when he died, made mention of the departing of the children of Israel; and gave commandment concerning his bones.

23 By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months of his parents, because they saw he was a proper child; and they were not afraid of the king's commandment. 24 By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter; 25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season; 26 Esteeming the reproach of Christ (the Anointed) greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward. 27 By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible. 28 Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them. 29 By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry land: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned.

30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell down, after they were compassed about seven days.

31 By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.

32 And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets: 33 Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, 34 Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens. 35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection: 36 And others had trial of cruelmockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment: 37 They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented; 38 (Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.

39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: 40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect (complete).

1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses (those listed in chapter 11), let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, 2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.

4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:

6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? 8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. 9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? 10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness. 11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

12 Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees; 13 And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.

14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord: 
15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled; 16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright. 17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

18 For ye are not come unto the mount (Sinai) that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest, 19 And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more: 20 (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart: 21 And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake:) 22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the general assembly (gathering) and church ("called-out" group) of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect (made complete), 24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven: 26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven. 27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. 28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: 29 For our God is a consuming fire.

13:1 Let brotherly love continue. 2 Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares. 3 Remember them that are in bonds, as bound with them; and them which suffer adversity, as being yourselves also in the body. 4 Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.

5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, "I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee." 

6 So that we may boldly say, "The Lord is my helper, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me."

7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation. 8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. 9 Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein. 
10 We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle. 11 For the bodies of those beasts, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without (outside) the camp. 12 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without (outside) the gate. 13 Let us go forth therefore unto him without (outside) the camp, bearing his reproach. 14 For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.

And, actually, "those in the Body of Christ," or rather "in the Body of the Messiah" (since the Greek word "Christos" is just the Greek translation of the Hebrew word "Mashiyach"), are both RESURRECTED AND CHANGED! Those who are already asleep in the Lord are resurrected and changed while those who are still alive at the moment the Messiah returns are just changed, since they do not yet need a resurrection being still alive! Look at the Scriptures from that point of view:

1 Corinthians 15:50-57 (KJV)

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible (unable to decay), and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible (able to decay) must put on incorruption (unable to decay ever again), and this mortal (able to die) must put on immortality (never able to die again). 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory (i.e., the Resurrection) through our Lord Jesus Christ.

[Marilyn C]

Hi Retro,

Always good to read God`s word. As usual we see differently.

Blessings, Marilyn.

[Uriah]

Hi Retro

Jesus begins to reign when He returns, not 1k yes. later. " The kingdom s of this world have become the kingdom s of our God and of His Christ" " Thou hast taken up the power and begun to reign." 

You make it sound like we have to wait for the 1k yrs before we reign with Him.

Read the parable you quoted again. He reigns...! Wherever He is we are.

[Uriah]

22 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

 However, the New Sky and the New Earth with its New Jerusalem descending out of that Sky, is NOT "here right after Jesus defeats the a/c." While the sky in one area is "separating" and "rolled up like a scroll" in Revelation 6, that's NOT the same as the sky "flying by" (2 Peter 3:10) or "fleeing from the face of the One sitting upon the throne" (Revelation 20:11), since "our God is a consuming fire" (Hebrews 12:29).

The "1k yrs" is YET TO COME; it's the time when Yeshua` begins His reign here on this earth...

Hi Retro

Not making sense here. Are there 2 different skies you are talking about? When the sky departs in Rev. 6, what replaces it? ...The NEW one of course.

This is the same as Is. 34:4 and is what Peter was referring to also: And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.

You'll notice this chapter contains reference to ALL nations and fury on their armies. That is the scene at Armageddon. As I said above, THAT is when He begins to reign. And in the parable you cited, we can the noble man RECEIVED the kingdom and returned. THAT is when He reigns! Not a thousand years later.

2 Tim 2:12- If we suffer, we shall also reign with him:

Rev. 5:10- And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

As stated above, this happens at the 7th trumpet. NOT a thousand yrs. later.

[Marilyn C]

2 hours ago, Uriah said:

Hi Retro

Not making sense here. Are there 2 different skies you are talking about? When the sky departs in Rev. 6, what replaces it? ...The NEW one of course.

This is the same as Is. 34:4 and is what Peter was referring to also: And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.

You'll notice this chapter contains reference to ALL nations and fury on their armies. That is the scene at Armageddon. As I said above, THAT is when He begins to reign. And in the parable you cited, we can the noble man RECEIVED the kingdom and returned. THAT is when He reigns! Not a thousand years later.

2 Tim 2:12- If we suffer, we shall also reign with him:

Rev. 5:10- And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

As stated above, this happens at the 7th trumpet. NOT a thousand yrs. later.

Hi Uriah,

That scripture in Rev. 5: 10 should read - `And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign OVER the earth.`  The Greek word is `epi` and means over or on. Thus more information is needed. We reign with the Lord on His throne in the third heave. (Rev. 3: 21) That is His seat of power and authority, the earth comes UNDER that, and there are those who will just be priests upon the earth. (Rev. 20: 4 - 6)

regards, Marilyn.

[Uriah]

3 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Uriah,

That scripture in Rev. 5: 10 should read - `And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign OVER the earth.`  The Greek word is `epi` and means over or on. Thus more information is needed. We reign with the Lord on His throne in the third heave. (Rev. 3: 21) That is His seat of power and authority, the earth comes UNDER that, and there are those who will just be priests upon the earth. (Rev. 20: 4 - 6)

regards, Marilyn.

Hi Marilyn,  

That's fine. It actually fits with the idea of the New Jerusalem being above and in sight of the Earth instead of landing on it and crushing Israel and other nations. It also fits with what I wrote hear before how one could reign ON the Earth FROM above as monarchs have done from across the sea for example from England. 

epi-

1. upon, on, at, by, before

2. of position, on, at, by, over, against

3. to, over, on, at, across, against

 

Also...Jer 49:38- I will set My throne in Elam,
And will destroy from there the king and the princes,’ says the LORD.

This is not considered to teach us that God has a plan to place His throne in what is now Iran. But it is an example of just what I mean about having authority in another distant place  where the Kingdom has expanded to.

[Retrobyter]

7 hours ago, Uriah said:

Hi Retro

Not making sense here. Are there 2 different skies you are talking about? When the sky departs in Rev. 6, what replaces it? ...The NEW one of course.

Shalom, Uriah.

Sorry for getting back to you late. Yesterday was a busy day at work, and I fell asleep early.

No, there's not two different skies, but the event in Revelation 6 is like that of an atomic bomb! (Please note: In saying that, I am NOT saying that is WAS an atom bomb.) It rushes away from a location purely because of the intensity of the energy released, but it SNAPS back once that energy has subsided. And, like the lightning that does the same thing on a minor scale, when the air snaps back, we hear it as thunder! It doesn't destroy the atmosphere, nor does the atmosphere "depart." In fact, the Greek word there is "apechooristhee" (using "oo" for omega and "ee" for eta) the aorist indicative passive of "apochoorizoo." It means to SEPARATE, to SPLIT, to REND (RIP) APART! However, it's the same sky that "replaces it."

The English language has changed in the 400+ years that the King James Authorized Version has been in existence. Now, we think of the word "depart" to mean "leave." However, the key meaning of the word is in the root of the word, "part," which means to "separate." And, according to Answers.com,

The prefix 'de' means a removal, separation, or to indicate privation.

This gives the word emphasis. So, the English of the KJV is not wrong; we just don't understand it the way people used to understand it.

Quote

This is the same as Is. 34:4 and is what Peter was referring to also: And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.

You'll notice this chapter contains reference to ALL nations and fury on their armies. That is the scene at Armageddon. As I said above, THAT is when He begins to reign. And in the parable you cited, we can the noble man RECEIVED the kingdom and returned. THAT is when He reigns! Not a thousand years later.

2 Tim 2:12- If we suffer, we shall also reign with him:

Rev. 5:10- And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

As stated above, this happens at the 7th trumpet. NOT a thousand yrs. later.

I do not deny that this is the same event as in Revelation 19; however, let's look at Yesha`yahu's prophecy:

Isaiah 34: 1-17 (KJV)

1 Come near, ye nations (Hebrew: gowyim = "Gentiles"), to hear; and hearken, ye people (Hebrew: uwl'umiym = "and-to-peoples"): let the earth (Hebrew: haa'aarets = "the Land") hear, and all that is therein (Hebrew: uwmlo'aah = "and-all-that-fills-it"); the world (Hebrew: teeVeel = "[the] inhabited-world"), and all things that come forth of it (Hebrew: vkhaal tse'etsaa'aayhaa = "and-all her-offspring").

2 For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations (Hebrew: kaal hagowiym = "all the-Gentiles"), and his fury upon all their armies: (Hebrew: `al kaal tsVaa'aam = "against all [their]-armies") he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.

All WHICH nations? His anger is upon all the nations who sent ARMIES against His people and His Land!

3 Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood.

This is talking about run-off of their blood being like a downpour that causes gullying.

4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved (Hebrew: vnaamaquw kaal tsVaa' hashaamayim = "and-shall-rot all armies of-the-skies"), and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll (Hebrew: vnaagoluw kaseefer hashaamaayim = "and-shall-be-rolled-up like-a-scroll the-skies"): and all their host shall fall down (Hebrew: vkaal tsvaa'aam yibowl = "and-all their-armies shall-fall"), as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.

5 For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.

6 The sword of the LORD is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the LORD hath a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea.

7 And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness.

8 For it is the day of the LORD'S vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.

9 And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch.

10 It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.

11 But the cormorant and the bittern shall possess it; the owl also and the raven shall dwell in it: and he shall stretch out upon it the line of confusion, and the stones of emptiness.

12 They shall call the nobles thereof to the kingdom, but none shall be there, and all her princes shall be nothing.

13 And thorns shall come up in her palaces, nettles and brambles in the fortresses thereof: and it shall be an habitation of dragons, and a court for owls.

14 The wild beasts of the desert shall also meet with the wild beasts of the island, and the satyr shall cry to his fellow; the screech owl also shall rest there, and find for herself a place of rest.

15 There shall the great owl make her nest, and lay, and hatch, and gather under her shadow: there shall the vultures also be gathered, every one with her mate.

16 Seek ye out of the book of the LORD, and read: no one of these shall fail, none shall want her mate: for my mouth it hath commanded, and his spirit it hath gathered them.

17 And he hath cast the lot for them, and his hand hath divided it unto them by line: they shall possess it for ever, from generation to generation shall they dwell therein.

Where is Yeshua`s first stop? It's at BOTSRAH ("Bozrah") in Idumea ("Edom"). There He begins His revenge! And, I should mention that this passage is talking about their "armies in the skies," their AIRFORCES!

And, regarding reigning with Him, YES, it begins when Yeshua` returns and it lasts for that one thousand years that haSatan is incarcerated before the earth is renewed!

(Gotta go. Shalom for now.)

Edited December 11, 2018 by Retrobyter
to add a quick explanation

[Marilyn C]

12 hours ago, Uriah said:

Hi Marilyn,  

That's fine. It actually fits with the idea of the New Jerusalem being above and in sight of the Earth instead of landing on it and crushing Israel and other nations. It also fits with what I wrote hear before how one could reign ON the Earth FROM above as monarchs have done from across the sea for example from England. 

epi-

1. upon, on, at, by, before

2. of position, on, at, by, over, against

3. to, over, on, at, across, against

 

Also...Jer 49:38- I will set My throne in Elam,
And will destroy from there the king and the princes,’ says the LORD.

This is not considered to teach us that God has a plan to place His throne in what is now Iran. But it is an example of just what I mean about having authority in another distant place  where the Kingdom has expanded to.

Hi Uriah,

Good thoughts there. I appreciate them. I would also like to just bring in one more point and that is the New Jerusalem comes down out of heaven from God. We, the Body of Christ are not in that group but are in `Mount Zion` the heavenly ruling realm. (Heb. 12: 22)

Mount Zion on earth was where King David ruled from and the city was further down. Jerusalem is made up of both those areas, the Mount and the city. Thus Mount Zion above is the ruling area while the city part, will come down near the earth as you said.

We will rule and reign with Christ in the highest realm. All other areas - the city and the earth will have delegated authorities under Christ.

regards Marilyn. 

[Retrobyter]

6 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Uriah,

That scripture in Rev. 5: 10 should read - `And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign OVER the earth.`  The Greek word is `epi` and means over or on. Thus more information is needed. We reign with the Lord on His throne in the third heaven. (Rev. 3: 21) That is His seat of power and authority, the earth comes UNDER that, and there are those who will just be priests upon the earth. (Rev. 20: 4 - 6)

regards, Marilyn.

Shalom, Marilyn.

You shouldn't confuse the man. The word "epi" CAN mean "over," but the word CAN ALSO mean "upon," "on," "at," "by," "before,"  "against," "to," etc., depending on the context and the case, as Uriah has noted and as given in the Greek Dictionary of Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible:

1909 epi (ep-ee'). A primary preposition; properly, meaning superimposition (of time, place, order, etc.), as a relation of distribution (with the genitive case), i.e. Over, upon, etc.; of rest (with the dative case) at, on, etc.; of direction (with the accusative case) towards, upon, etc.
-- about (the times), above, after, against, among, as long as (touching), at, beside, X have charge of, (be-, (where-))fore, in (a place, as much as, the time of, -to), (because) of, (up-)on (behalf of), over, (by, for) the space of, through(-out), (un-)to(-ward), with. In compounds it retains essentially the same import, at, upon, etc. (literally or figuratively).

It's the case of the word which "epi" modifies that makes a difference in how it is interpreted into English:

As my copy of the Beginner's Grammar of the Greek New Testament by William Hersey Davis (Wipf and Stock Publishers, 1999) says,

"It is the case which indicates the meaning of the preposition, and not the preposition which gives the meaning to the case." (p. 44, section 74.)

Frank Nelte (franknelte.net) said, 

Quote

 

A) Epi governs three cases, the Genitive, the Dative, and the Accusative.

B) It denotes superposition.

C) WITH THE GENITIVE it denotes: upon, as proceeding or springing from, and answers to the question "Where?" (e.g. Matt 9:2; Matt. 10:27; Mark 8:4; Luke 22:30; John 6:21).

With the idea of locality it conveys the sense, in the presence of (e.g. Matt. 28:14; Mark 13:9; Acts 24:19; 1Cor. 6:1).

With the idea of time, it looks backward and upward, (e.g. "in the days of", Matt. 1:11; Heb. 1:2).

With the idea of place, it denotes dignity and power (e.g. Matt. 23:2; Acts 12:21; Rom. 9:5; Rev. 2:26).

D) WITH THE DATIVE it implies: actual superposition, as one thing resting upon another, as upon a foundation or basis which may be actual (e.g. Mark 6:25,28,39) or moral (e.g. Matt. 18:13; Mark 3:5). Both senses occur in 1Thess. 3:7.

Hence it is used of the moving principle or motive suggesting the purpose or object (e.g. Eph. 2:10), and sometimes including the result (e.g. 2Tim. 2:14).

E) WITH THE ACCUSATIVE it implies: the downward pressure on that upon which a thing rests; active motion being suggested (e.g. 2Cor. 3:15; 1Tim. 5:5).

Hence, it denotes any extended motion downward (e.g. Matt. 13:2; Matt 18:12; Matt. 19:28; Matt. 27:45) from heaven to earth (Mark 4:20; Acts 11:15; 2Cor. 12:9).

Compared with pros (#15 below): pros marks the motion, the direction to be taken, while epi, with the Accusative, marks the point to be reached.

This downward pressure may be that of the mind, or feeling (e.g. Matt. 25:21; Matt. 27:43; Heb. 6:1; 1Pet. 1:13).

For the difference between eis (#6 above) and epi with the Accusative see Rom 9:21 which states: "one vessel unto (eis) honour", and verse 23, which reads: "riches of glory on (epi) the vessels of mercy".

(emphasis mine)

 Sometimes this prepositional adverb will be joined to the noun it modifies, such as "epourania" = "epi" + "ouranios" and "epigeia" = "epi" + "gee." Here's an apropos example:

1 Corinthians 15:35-49 (KJV)

35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? 36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: 37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: 38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. 

39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is 
one kind of flesh of men,
another flesh of beasts,
another of fishes, and 
another of birds. 

40 There are also celestial bodies (Greek: somata epourania = "bodies of/from-above-the-sky"),
and bodies terrestrial (Greek: somata epigeia = "bodies of/from-above-the-ground"): but the glory of the celestial is one (Greek: toon epouranioon = "the-ones of/from-above-the-sky"), and the glory of the terrestrial is another (Greek: toon epigeioon = "the-ones of/from-above-the-ground"). 

41 There is one glory of the sun, and 
another glory of the moon, and 
another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead.

It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory:
it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.

There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written,

The first man Adam was made a living soul;

the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 

48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy:
and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy,
we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

This is a GREAT study in contrasts! Verse 40 uses these two words, considered adjectives, in the plural. My point is this: if "epigeia" refers to people "upon the ground," so the usage of the word "epi" can mean "upon" the ground, rather than "above" or "over" the ground.

To confirm this usage in Revelation 5:10, the words following "epi" are "tees gees" ("the earth" or rather "the ground") and are in the GENITIVE CASE (see point "C)" above). Therefore, the words are translated correctly when MOST of the versions  have the words "upon the earth" or more simply "on the earth" (although I'd prefer "upon the ground" because many today confuse "the earth" with the whole planet), NOT "over the earth" or "above the earth."

[Uriah]

3 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Uriah,

Good thoughts there. I appreciate them. I would also like to just bring in one more point and that is the New Jerusalem comes down out of heaven from God. We, the Body of Christ are not in that group but are in `Mount Zion` the heavenly ruling realm. (Heb. 12: 22)

Mount Zion on earth was where King David ruled from and the city was further down. Jerusalem is made up of both those areas, the Mount and the city. Thus Mount Zion above is the ruling area while the city part, will come down near the earth as you said.

We will rule and reign with Christ in the highest realm. All other areas - the city and the earth will have delegated authorities under Christ.

regards Marilyn. 

Hi Marilyn,

I don't think we should make different groups. As I said previously, Jesus said, "that where I am, THERE will my servant be".                                                                    John 10:16- And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Heb. 12:22-  But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

Mt. Zion and the heavenly city of New Jerusalem are shown to be the same. So it is one flock in one place at one time as I see it.