Defense of the Post Trib Rapture

[Uriah]

14 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

I do not deny that this is the same event as in Revelation 19;

And, regarding reigning with Him, YES, it begins when Yeshua` returns and it lasts for that one thousand years that haSatan is incarcerated before the earth is renewed!

 

Hi Retro

Ok, so you see Is. 34 and Rev. 19 as being the same? Fine. Bozrah is also seen mentioned in Is. 63 and Jesus has a garment red from treading the wine press in the "day of vengeance". Compare that to Rev 19.

It is analogous to "the great day of His wrath" in Rev 6. Paul spoke of Him "in flaming fire taking vengeance" in that day too. There is no 1,000 yr gap.

That is when Isaiah continues and goes into speaking of the new heavens and the new earth.

 

[Retrobyter]

7 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Uriah,

Good thoughts there. I appreciate them. I would also like to just bring in one more point and that is the New Jerusalem comes down out of heaven from God. We, the Body of Christ are not in that group but are in `Mount Zion` the heavenly ruling realm. (Heb. 12: 22)

Mount Zion on earth was where King David ruled from and the city was further down. Jerusalem is made up of both those areas, the Mount and the city. Thus Mount Zion above is the ruling area while the city part, will come down near the earth as you said.

We will rule and reign with Christ in the highest realm. All other areas - the city and the earth will have delegated authorities under Christ.

regards Marilyn. 

Shalom, again, Marilyn.

You've made a serious error that must be corrected. You've separated "Mount Zion" from the city. However, the Greek uses them together in the same case and in the same way! They BOTH are descriptions of the ONE New Jerusalem!

Just as you have separated these terms, you've separated God's people! THAT'S what makes this so serious!

Your teaching above is a DIRECT POLAR OPPOSITE to the best teaching in the Messianic Jewish synagogues: "We are ONE NEW MAN in the Messiah!"

Ephesians 2:11-22 (KJV)

11 Wherefore remember, that ye (the Gentile Ephesians to whom Paul is writing) being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ (separated from the Messiah), being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God ([having] no God) in the world: 

13 But now in Christ Jesus (in the Messiah Yeshua`) ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ (the blood of God's Messiah). 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ (Yeshua` the Messiah) himself being the chief corner stone (the head angle stone); 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Paul is NOT telling them there are three groups of people; he is telling them there are TWO groups: the Uncircumcision and the Circumcision, those far off and those who are nigh (close/near), those who are strangers and foreigners and those who are fellowcitizens with the holy ones who are also of the household of God. Through God's MESSIAH - God's ANOINTED - God's CHOICE for King - both have access to the Father by the Spirit.

We don't come out of the Gentiles and out of the children of Israel to become the "Church"; we come out of the Gentiles to become children of Israel! That's a VERY IMPORTANT distinction! What we also find is that those who were "left desolate" also regain their status as "children of Israel" when they recognize Yeshua` as God's Messiah!

Now, let's look at Hebrews 12:22 in the Greek; look at the endings and their close proximity:

Pros Hebraious 12:22-24 (UBS Greek New Testament)

22 Alla proseleeluthate Zioon orei kai polei Theou zoontos, Ieerousaleem epouranioo, kai muriasin aggeloon,
23 paneegurei kai ekkleesia proototokoon apokegrammenoon en ouranois, kai Kritee Theoo pantoon, kai pneumasi dikaioon teteleioomenoon,
24 kai diatheekees neas mesitee Ieesou, kai haimati hrantismou kreitton lalounti para ton Abel.

22 Alla = 22 But
proseleeluthate = you-are-in-the-process-of-coming-to
Zioon = Tsiown (Zion)
orei = a-mountain
kai = and
polei = a-city
Theou = of-God
zoontos, = living,
Ieerousaleem = Yerushalayim (Jerusalem)
epouranioo, = of-above-the-sky,
kai = and
muriasin = to-myriads
aggeloon, = of-messengers,
23 paneegurei = to-a-festival-assembly
kai = and
ekkleesia = to-a-called-out-[group]
proototokoon = of-firstborn
apokegrammenoon = having-been-enrolled
en = in
ouranois, = skies,
kai = and
Kritee = to-Judge
Theoo = God
pantoon, = of-all,
kai = and
pneumasi = to-winds/breaths/attitudes
dikaioon = of-justified-ones
teteleioomenoon, = having-been-completed,
24 kai = 24 and
diatheekees = of-a-covenant
neas = new
mesitee = a-mediator
Ieesou, = of-Yeshua` ("Jesus")
kai = and
haimati = blood
hrantismou = of-sprinkling
kreitton = stronger-things
lalounti = speaking
para = than
ton = that-of
Abel. = Hevel ("Abel").

Don't you yet realize that the city IS a mountain?!!! It's 1,379.868687 MILES HIGH! I'd call that a "mountain," wouldn't you? Mount Everest is only 5.5 miles high! HAHAR TSIOWN = YERUSHALAYIM HACHADASHAH! They are NOT two different things!

Notice, too, that there are other instances where the mountain is "confused" with the city, speaking of the future New Jerusalem:

Isaiah 2:2-3 (KJV)

2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. 3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

and

Psalm 48:1-2 (KJV)

1 {A Song and Psalm for the sons of Korah.}

Great is the LORD, and greatly to be praised in the city of our God, in the mountain of his holiness.
2Beautiful for situation, the joy of the whole earth, is mount Zion, on the sides of the north (aligned with north), the city of the great King.

Edited December 12, 2018 by Retrobyter

[Retrobyter]

3 hours ago, Uriah said:

Hi Retro

Ok, so you see Is. 34 and Rev. 19 as being the same? Fine. Bozrah is also seen mentioned in Is. 63 and Jesus has a garment red from treading the wine press in the "day of vengeance". Compare that to Rev 19.

It is analogous to "the great day of His wrath" in Rev 6. Paul spoke of Him "in flaming fire taking vengeance" in that day too. There is no 1,000 yr gap.

That is when Isaiah continues and goes into speaking of the new heavens and the new earth.

 

Shalom, Uriah.

Sorry, bro', but Revelation 6 and (Isaiah 34, 63, and Revelation 19) are TWO separate events (periods), but BOTH of them occur BEFORE the 1,000 years, and the Messiah does indeed return between these events!

When the Messiah returns, the FIRST 1,000 years of His reign begins. That's a THOUSAND YEARS!!! In point of fact, the "THOUSAND YEARS" are DEFINED BY the locking away of haSatan in the Bottomless Pit (the Abussos, which is Greek for "no bottom," or Abyss)! That event begins the "thousand years"; the period of a "thousand years" ends when haSatan is freed. And, a "thousand years" is a VERY LONG TIME!  JUST THINK ABOUT THAT! Where was the United States of America a thousand years ago? What was society like in 1018? Henry III of the Holy Roman Empire had just been born (on my birthday) the year before!

Furthermore, AFTER the 1,000 years, with haSatan freed, he begins his campaign to gather an army for one last stand against God's Messiah, and then the Global Fire occurs.

It's AFTER the Global Fire, the Great White Throne Judgment occurs (with the guilty thrown into the Lake of Fire and Sulfur), and THEN the New Earth and the New Sky are re-formed and the New Jerusalem descends to the New Earth.

I know we live in an "instant" world where everything has to be done quickly like at a fastfood restaurant, but God's plan for the future isn't "instant." There's MUCH yet to be fulfilled!

Edited December 12, 2018 by Retrobyter
Oops! Okay, one gets tired, right?

[Marilyn C]

4 hours ago, Uriah said:

Hi Marilyn,

I don't think we should make different groups. As I said previously, Jesus said, "that where I am, THERE will my servant be".                                                                    John 10:16- And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Heb. 12:22-  But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

Mt. Zion and the heavenly city of New Jerusalem are shown to be the same. So it is one flock in one place at one time as I see it. 

 

Hi Uriah,

Note that you said -  `It actually fits with the idea of the New Jerusalem being above and in sight of the Earth instead of landing on it and crushing Israel and other nations.` See you have mentioned two groups - those in the city and those on the earth.

Now had you thought that the Lord is omnipresent by His Holy Spirit and also that in His glorified body He can go anywhere in God`s great kingdom. However, and most  importantly is that the Lord Jesus Christ`s seat of  power and authority, His throne is in the highest created realm - the third heaven. The city comes down and the Lord`s seat of power and authority is definitely NOT coming down lower than the angelic realm.

Marilyn,

[Retrobyter]

6 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Uriah,

Note that you said -  `It actually fits with the idea of the New Jerusalem being above and in sight of the Earth instead of landing on it and crushing Israel and other nations.` See you have mentioned two groups - those in the city and those on the earth.

Now had you thought that the Lord is omnipresent by His Holy Spirit and also that in His glorified body He can go anywhere in God`s great kingdom. However, and most  importantly is that the Lord Jesus Christ`s seat of  power and authority, His throne is in the highest created realm - the third heaven. The city comes down and the Lord`s seat of power and authority is definitely NOT coming down lower than the angelic realm.

Marilyn,

Shalom, Marilyn.

I can see you don't want to talk to me, and that's fine. But, this is NOT RIGHT! The Messiah MUST reign in JERUSALEM and ON DAVID'S THRONE!

There are MANY prophecies in the Tanakh (the OT) that DEMAND He do so or they make God out to be a liar!

Read what Gavri'el (Gabriel) said to Miryam (Mary) again:

Luke 1:30-33 (KJV)

30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS (Greek: Ieesous = Hebrew: Yeeshuwa`). 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

(And you have a wrong understanding of "third heaven." It's a third sky CHRONOLOGICALLY, NOT SPATIALLY! Read 2 Peter 3:3-13.)

[Marilyn C]

29 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Marilyn.

I can see you don't want to talk to me, and that's fine.

Hi Retro,

It`s not that I don`t want to talk with you but we will be going over old ground together. We know what each other thinks and thus we need to not wrangle with words.

all the best, bro, Marilyn.

[n2thelight]

13 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Uriah,

Note that you said -  `It actually fits with the idea of the New Jerusalem being above and in sight of the Earth instead of landing on it and crushing Israel and other nations.` See you have mentioned two groups - those in the city and those on the earth.

Now had you thought that the Lord is omnipresent by His Holy Spirit and also that in His glorified body He can go anywhere in God`s great kingdom. However, and most  importantly is that the Lord Jesus Christ`s seat of  power and authority, His throne is in the highest created realm - the third heaven. The city comes down and the Lord`s seat of power and authority is definitely NOT coming down lower than the angelic realm.

Marilyn,

Sorry to intrude

When Christ feet touch this earth everything over there will be obliterated ,people say that happened in ad70 ,and it did,however that was just a type

Zechariah 14:4 "And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south."

This will happen on "the day of the Lord". God will shake the earth and send fire and brimstone upon it. The earthquakes will flatten the cities to where not one stone will stand upon another. Those two great mountains will shake, and the mount of Olives will split. All prophecies concerning Christ return include Mount Zion, and the Mount of Olives will be fulfilled. This is where Christ's feet will touch the earth, when He returns.

When Jesus and His disciples were departing out of Jerusalem before he would be delivered up to be crucified, they asked Him what it would be like at His second coming.

Matthew 24:2 "And Jesus said unto them, "See ye not all these things [Temple buildings]? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down."

Sure the city of Jerusalem has been destroyed from time to time, but there are still many stones stacked upon each other from the original construction. A simple trip to Jerusalem reveals that, for the wailing wall is one of the most popular markings of that city. Before that time another temple shall be built, and the Antichrist shall rule from that spot.

Then at the seventh trumpet, and Jesus Christ's return there will be a great shaking that will level the city of Jerusalem. At that shaking not one stone will be left upon another. Yet God will make a way of escape for his elect on that day. Then the "east gate", the one facing the "sun to the temple" will open a way of escape for God's people. That way will be there, and this destruction is not to be feared by one of God's elect.

Revelation 21:2 "And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband."

 

Psalms 132:13 "For the Lord hath chosen Zion; He hath desired it for His habitation."

Our Heavenly Father has chosen Zion, Jerusalem as the site of His throne for ever. The creator of all things has chosen Jerusalem and mount Zion to place His temple and throne. It is the place of God's eternal home.

Psalms 132:14 "This is My rest for ever: Here will I dwell; for I have desired it."

Father loves that place, and that is why we should be respectful to it, regardless who holds control of it for a short time. Respect not for the people, for great abominations will take place on Zion before the return of Christ, but for the location. It is the location where Jesus ascended into Heaven, and where Abraham offered Isaac as a sacrifice to the Lord. It is still there today, and it will be the final resting place of our heavenly Father.

[Uriah]

20 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Uriah,

Note that you said -  `It actually fits with the idea of the New Jerusalem being above and in sight of the Earth instead of landing on it and crushing Israel and other nations.` See you have mentioned two groups - those in the city and those on the earth.

Now had you thought that the Lord is omnipresent by His Holy Spirit and also that in His glorified body He can go anywhere in God`s great kingdom. However, and most  importantly is that the Lord Jesus Christ`s seat of  power and authority, His throne is in the highest created realm - the third heaven. The city comes down and the Lord`s seat of power and authority is definitely NOT coming down lower than the angelic realm.

Marilyn,

Hi Marilyn, 

Rev. 21:2- And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband           Rev, 21:3-  Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men

These things make it VERY clear that a major event has happened. God's throne, which is definitely seen in the City is now where men live when this happens.

[Uriah]

21 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Sorry, bro', but Revelation 6 and (Isaiah 34, 63, and Revelation 19) are TWO separate events (periods), but BOTH of them occur BEFORE the 1,000 years, and the Messiah does indeed return between these events!

Hi Retro

Wow, the sky rolls up twice? Never heard THAT before. So let me ask....

Rev. 16:14- every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

Rev. 16:20- And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

Are THESE two separate events too?

[Marilyn C]

21 hours ago, n2thelight said:

Psalms 132:13 "For the Lord hath chosen Zion; He hath desired it for His habitation."

Our Heavenly Father has chosen Zion, Jerusalem as the site of His throne for ever. The creator of all things has chosen Jerusalem and mount Zion to place His temple and throne. It is the place of God's eternal home.

Psalms 132:14 "This is My rest for ever: Here will I dwell; for I have desired it."

Father loves that place, and that is why we should be respectful to it, regardless who holds control of it for a short time. Respect not for the people, for great abominations will take place on Zion before the return of Christ, but for the location. It is the location where Jesus ascended into Heaven, and where Abraham offered Isaac as a sacrifice to the Lord. It is still there today, and it will be the final resting place of our heavenly Father.

 

1 hour ago, Uriah said:

Hi Marilyn, 

Rev. 21:2- And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband           Rev, 21:3-  Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men

These things make it VERY clear that a major event has happened. God's throne, which is definitely seen in the City is now where men live when this happens.

Hi n2thelight & Uriah,

Yes God`s throne is operating on the earth, (David`s throne) and in the city, however we need to understand that the word `throne` means authority and not an ornate chair. God`s throne, His actual seat of power is in the highest - the angelic realm, the third heaven.

`Heaven is my throne and earth is my footstool.` (Isa. 66: 1)

God is a spirit and is omnipresent. The glorified Lord Jesus will rule and reign from the highest realm in the created order and all other thrones/ authorities will come under Him.

regards, Marilyn.