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Defense of the Post Trib Rapture


George

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Here is a very good teaching on the post trib rapture that proves the wrath is after the tribulation:

https://sumofthyword.com/2016/10/04/the-rapture-of-the-church-is-after-the-tribulation/

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32 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

 

Hi n2thelight & Uriah,

Yes God`s throne is operating on the earth, (David`s throne) and in the city, however we need to understand that the word `throne` means authority and not an ornate chair. God`s throne, His actual seat of power is in the highest - the angelic realm, the third heaven.

`Heaven is my throne and earth is my footstool.` (Isa. 66: 1)

God is a spirit and is omnipresent. The glorified Lord Jesus will rule and reign from the highest realm in the created order and all other thrones/ authorities will come under Him.

regards, Marilyn.

 

Hi Marilyn

I don't think that we can dismiss an ACTUAL throne. Rev.7:9- After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

There has to be a place where real people actually stand, before it for example. I tried transposing the word "throne" with "authority, conceptual seat of power, and omnipresence" in many verses. It doesn't work. Would have liked to hear your position on the City, where God is sitting on a throne with people before Him..."descending out"..of heaven. 

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1 hour ago, Uriah said:

Hi Retro

Wow, the sky rolls up twice? Never heard THAT before. So let me ask....

Rev. 6:14- every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

Rev. 16:20- And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

Are THESE two separate events too?

Shalom, Uriah.

Absolutely. "Being moved out of place" is not the same as "fleeing away" and "not being found," even IF these verses were talking about "every island and every mountain" on the whole planet.

Consider: All earthquakes have a focal point, an epicenter, where the slippage between techtonic plates occurred. An earthquake can trigger another such quake IF the point of contact is under enough stress that a vibration from the first has enough energy to push the point of contact in the second into kinetic energy from its potential energy state.

It would take an extremely potent event to trigger EVERY potential epicenter into kinetic energy! I believe that such an event could occur, triggered by a near, passing meteor, asteroid or comet, but this will only happen ONCE. After that, there will be no more stress points under pressure.

It is possible, however, for a SINGLE earthquake, if its magnitude is great enough, to relocate "every mountain and island" in a geographical area. People use mountains and islands (and coastlines) as landmarks for maps and directions. IF, however, those landmarks were MOVED, EVER SO SLIGHTLY, even global positioning systems would be interrupted!

But, let's keep it simple. If a mountain is "MOVED," it is still a mountain, just in a different location. If a mountain "FLEES AWAY," then the mountain no longer exists. Islands are simply mountains under water. If a mountain is LEVELED, then it will cease to be a mountain and will become a rocky or hilly plateau or plain.

So, just because both verses use the two words "mountain" and "island," these events are still two separate events.

What is MORE important is that the breaking of the sixth seal gives rise to the seventh seal introducing the first five trumpet warnings - the first five "air-raid sirens." Look at them in sequence:

Revelation 6:12-17 (KJV)

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the [full] moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

Revelation 8:1-13; 9:1-12 (KJV)

1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. 2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. 4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand. 5 And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.

6 And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.

7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood; 9 And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.

10 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters; 11 And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.

12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.

13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, "Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!"

1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him [it] was given the key of the bottomless pit. 2 And he [it] opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. 3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. 4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. 5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man. 6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

7 And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men. 8 And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions. 9 And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle. 10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months. 11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.  (Note: Both words mean "destruction," NOT "destroyer," as some claim.)

12 "One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter."

These events are sequential and are NOT reduplicating the seal judgments. In fact, the air-raid sirens begin to sound when the seventh seal is broken.

These events ALL have a point in common: bodies from the sky fall to and strike the surface of the earth.

The sixth seal are "HERALD meteorites!" They are the smaller bodies that fall from the sky. This is not actually talking about real "stars," as we know them today - huge bodies of hydrogen and helium, each several times larger than the earth and generated by nuclear fusion! These are "asteres" that can be ANY body in the sky that gives off light!

The first trumpet is hail, fire, and blood mixed together thrown to the ground! This may also be describing these "herald meteorites," but I think it goes farther than that. I believe this is the AFTERMATH of the meteorites striking birds, planes, helicopters, etc. Hail is made in thunderheads (cumulonimbus clouds) as water is pushed upward by updrafts that push it so far aloft that it freezes and falls as ice. It is then pushed upward again, and the ice grows on the existing ice, making them larger. Several times this cycle occurs until at last the ice is heavy enough to fall out of the cloud. The atmosphere will be quite unstable and therefore clouds, even thunderheads, are inevitable.

The second trumpet is a mountain-shaped meteorite striking the sea.

The third trumpet is a sputtering meteorite, sputtering like a torch, that contaminates the rivers and streams and all fresh water sources. It is named "Apsinthos," from which we get the word "absinthe."

Quote

absinthe | ˈabˌsinTH | (also absinth) noun 1 a potent green aniseed-flavoured liqueur, originally made with the shrub wormwood. 2 another term for wormwood (sense 1) .ORIGIN late Middle English: from French absinthe, via Latin from Greek apsinthion wormwood.

Note: This liqueur had been outlawed in the United States since 1912 until a new form was developed called "thujone-free" in 2007. It also has a very high rate of alcoholic content, 55% to 75% (110 to 144 proof). In any case, these may be the chemicals with which this meteorite contaminates the fresh water sources, making them cloudy and dangerous.

The fourth trumpet is talking about the "nuclear winter" effect that such an event would have associated with it. There would be so much dust, smoke, and water in the air as to blot out the sun, the moon, and the stars for that third of the earth's rotation.

The fifth trumpet is also a meteorite that falls and strikes the earth, only this meteorite has the key coordinates to the bottomless pit! It cracks open the pit and releases this antediluvial species of locusts that have stingers like those of scorpions.

Also, the thing about disasters and warning sirens for those disasters is that one doesn't have to stop before another is started! I believe these will COMPOUND and the sirens will be blaring for quite a while!

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7 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Absolutely.

Hi Retro

Any others? Like:

7th trumpet- Rev. 11:19- And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

7th vial-Rev. 16:18- And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

 

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On 12/12/2018 at 12:19 AM, Marilyn C said:

Hi Retro,

It`s not that I don`t want to talk with you but we will be going over old ground together. We know what each other thinks and thus we need to not wrangle with words.

all the best, bro, Marilyn.

Shalom, Marilyn.

Okay. Thanks for at least saying, "Hi," sis. I do love you in the Messiah (even if I don't always agree with you)! God bless you, sis.

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On ‎12‎/‎13‎/‎2018 at 2:26 PM, Uriah said:

Hi Marilyn

I don't think that we can dismiss an ACTUAL throne. Rev.7:9- After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

There has to be a place where real people actually stand, before it for example. I tried transposing the word "throne" with "authority, conceptual seat of power, and omnipresence" in many verses. It doesn't work. Would have liked to hear your position on the City, where God is sitting on a throne with people before Him..."descending out"..of heaven. 

Hi Uriah,

Throne - Gk. word `thronos,` a stately seat by implication power or a potentate, seat, throne.  (Strong`s)

That great multitude that come out of the tribulation before God`s throne, (the seat of His power and authority), will go into the new earth for they have `palm branches` indicating the feast of `Tabernacles.` And that is what the city is called `The Tabernacle of God`  (Rev. 21: 3). God will be with them, as He is omnipresent in ALL of His great kingdom, from the highest realm through the universe to the earth. With the fall, there had been a separation from God, but in the New Heavens and New Earth God will be with ALL His children in ALL the different realms.

We need to remember that God`s `throne,` His eternal seat of power and authority is always, and has been always, FAR ABOVE ALL.

regards, Marilyn. 

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9 hours ago, Uriah said:

Hi Retro

Any others? Like:

7th trumpet- Rev. 11:19- And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

7th vial-Rev. 16:18- And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

Shalom, Uriah.

Sure. Again, these are simply two verses that use the same words "lightnings, voices, thunders (or thunderings), and an earthquake." However, the similarities do NOT force the two verses to be about the same event!

"Great hail" simply means "large hail." If you ask Google, "How big can hail get?" You'll get one response from www.nssl.noaa.gov that says:

Quote

Hail is usually pea-sized to marble-sized, but big thunderstorms can produce big hail. The largest hailstone recovered in the U.S. fell in Vivian, SD on June 23, 2010 with a diameter of 8 inches and a circumference of 18.62 inches. It weighed 1 lb 15 oz.

And, another response (to the question "Can hail kill you?") is this:

Quote

We have reports of one child dying from a hailstone strike in 1893 and another in 1928. ... In Bangladesh, a giant storm of “grapefruit-sized” hail killed almost a hundred people in 1986. Some of the stones weighed more than 2 pounds. Americans may be less likely to get killed by hail because we spend so much time indoors.

So, ANY large hail would do in Revelation 11:19. Furthermore, the "earthquake" in that verse is just an earthquake. There's nothing in the verse that would suggest this is a special earthquake.

However, in Revelation 16:18, we see the largest, most powerful earthquake EVER!

In Revelation 11:19, we see just "large hail" ("great hail"); but in Revelation 16: we read,

Revelation 16:21 (KJV)

21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

Again, when Google is asked, "How big is a talent of hail?" Google gives Wikipedia's response:

Quote

Some authorities say that the talent typically weighed about 33 kg (75 lb) varying from 20 to 40 kg.

A conservative understanding of a "talent" is 75 pounds. The mathematician in me wanted to see just how big this hail would be. Knowing that the density of ice, less than that of water, is 0.916 gm/cc and that the volume of a sphere is V = 4/3 x pi x radius cubed, one gets general formulas for ice (in cubic centimeters)...

a. Volume (in cc) = 1 lb x (453.592 gm/lb) / (0.916 gm/cc) for each pound of ice = 495.187 cc/lb

Plugging in the weight of 75 lb into this result, we get 75 lb x 495.187 cc/lb = 37,139.1 cc.

b. radius (in cm) = (Volume x 3/4 / pi)^(1/3) = (37139.1 cc x 3/4 / pi)^(1/3) = (8866.30 cc)^(1/3) = 20.6970 cm

Converting that to inches, 

radius (in inches) = 20.6970 cm / (2.54 cm/in) = 8.14855 in.

Thus, the diameter would be = 2r = 2 x 8.14855 in = 16.2971 in., and
the circumference would be = 2r x pi = 51.1989 in.

That is, the diameter would be 1 ft 4.3 in, and the circumference would be 4 ft 3.2 in! 

***

However, some versions put "one talent" at 100 lb! How would that differ?

Plugging in the weight of 100 lb. into the result of equation (a.) above, we get 49,518.8 cc., and plugging that into (b.) above, we get 27.5964 cm. or 10.8647 inches for the radius.

Thus, its diameter would be = 2r = 2 x 10.8647 inches = 21.7295 inches, and
its circumference would be = 2r x pi = 68.2651 inches.

That is, the diameter would be 1 ft 9.7295 in, and the circumference would be 5 ft 8.3 in! That's an ice ball nearly a foot and 9-3/4 inches across! Imagine one of THOSE coming crashing down on you! Even the former calculation gives you a foot and a third across! With either one, if you get hit from one of these babies, you're TOAST!

HOWEVER, even in this terrible tragedy, it's NOT GLOBAL! The second hail storm, however, is far worse than the first hail storm.

Remember, too, that chapter divisions are "made-up." That is, they were added many years AFTER the book was written! The original text did not have chapter divisions (or even verse divisions). Try to ignore them as you read Revelation.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Uriah,

Throne - Gk. word `thronos,` a stately seat by implication power or a potentate, seat, throne.  (Strong`s)

That great multitude that come out of the tribulation before God`s throne, (the seat of His power and authority), will go into the new earth for they have `palm branches` indicating the feast of `Tabernacles.` And that is what the city is called `The Tabernacle of God`  (Rev. 21: 3). God will be with them, as He is omnipresent in ALL of His great kingdom, from the highest realm through the universe to the earth. With the fall, there had been a separation from God, but in the New Heavens and New Earth God will be with ALL His children in ALL the different realms.

We need to remember that God`s `throne,` His eternal seat of power and authority is always, and has been always, FAR ABOVE ALL.

regards, Marilyn. 

Shalom, Marilyn.

I've got to say it, but say it quickly. We're not talking about GOD'S throne (that is, the Father); we're talking about the SON-of-God's throne! This is what happens if you take things too universally.

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9 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Uriah,

Throne - Gk. word `thronos,` a stately seat by implication power or a potentate, seat, throne.  (Strong`s)

That great multitude that come out of the tribulation before God`s throne, (the seat of His power and authority), will go into the new earth for they have `palm branches` indicating the feast of `Tabernacles.` And that is what the city is called `The Tabernacle of God`  (Rev. 21: 3). God will be with them, as He is omnipresent in ALL of His great kingdom, from the highest realm through the universe to the earth. With the fall, there had been a separation from God, but in the New Heavens and New Earth God will be with ALL His children in ALL the different realms.

We need to remember that God`s `throne,` His eternal seat of power and authority is always, and has been always, FAR ABOVE ALL.

regards, Marilyn. 

Hi Marilyn

Still wish you could address the city "descending out of heaven". God is omnipresent NOW. This prophecy is about something that takes place in the future. What do you think about this?

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8 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

...these are simply two verses that use the same words

Hi Retro

And so you see it the same here? Just a coincidence of words?

Sixth trumpet - Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.

Sixth vial - angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up

 

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