Defense of the Post Trib Rapture

[Montana Marv]

On 12/12/2018 at 6:55 PM, Uriah said:

Hi Retro

Wow, the sky rolls up twice? Never heard THAT before. So let me ask....

Rev. 16:14- every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

Rev. 16:20- And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

Are THESE two separate events too?

Two steps to Pangaea.  What was the earth like before the flood and then before Peleg (Gen 10:25). Now we see two major earthquakes to reunite the Continents, one land mass.  Zech 14:16 - Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, and to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles.  For this to take place there needs to be a land bridge between the Continents.

Another point: Gen 2:10-14 - A river watering the garden flowed from Eden; From there it was separated into four headwaters.  The names are Pishon (through Havilah), Gihon (through Cush -Nile river), Tigris, Euphrates both East and to the North.

Zech 14:8 - On that day living water will flow out from Jerusalem, half to the eastern sea, and half to the western sea, in summer and in winter.

For this to take place, Jerusalem must be or have been elevated.  As in the Garden of Eden, Jerusalem must have been elevated or at the highest point on earth.   A total reversal in topography, from which we have today and as in the beginning.  Isa 19:23 - In that day there will be a highway from Egypt to Assyria.

Things will change (the topography), and things will be different from what they have been, especially during the 1000 years.

This maybe a different concept, but think about it.

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

 

[Uriah]

35 minutes ago, Montana Marv said:

Two steps to Pangaea.  What was the earth like before the flood and then before Peleg (Gen 10:25). Now we see two major earthquakes to reunite the Continents, one land mass.  Zech 14:16 - Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, and to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles.  For this to take place there needs to be a land bridge between the Continents.

Another point: Gen 2:10-14 - A river watering the garden flowed from Eden; From there it was separated into four headwaters.  The names are Pishon (through Havilah), Gihon (through Cush -Nile river), Tigris, Euphrates both East and to the North.

Zech 14:8 - On that day living water will flow out from Jerusalem, half to the eastern sea, and half to the western sea, in summer and in winter.

For this to take place, Jerusalem must be or have been elevated.  As in the Garden of Eden, Jerusalem must have been elevated or at the highest point on earth.   A total reversal in topography, from which we have today and as in the beginning.  Isa 19:23 - In that day there will be a highway from Egypt to Assyria.

Things will change (the topography), and things will be different from what they have been, especially during the 1000 years.

This maybe a different concept, but think about it.

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

 

Hi Marv

Not sure what the connection is in your post to mine. Please explain

[Montana Marv]

14 minutes ago, Uriah said:

Hi Marv

Not sure what the connection is in your post to mine. Please explain

Two separate earthquakes. (not one)  To achieve a purpose, one global land mass.  One earthquake the mountains are moved, the second earthquake the mountains are not found and no more islands.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Marilyn C]

16 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Marilyn.

I've got to say it, but say it quickly. We're not talking about GOD'S throne (that is, the Father); we're talking about the SON-of-God's throne! This is what happens if you take things too universally.

Hi Retro,

I believe God`s word tells us that the glorified Son of God will have His throne, His seat of authority and power in the highest realm, over all, (yet under the Father).

regards, Marilyn.

[Marilyn C]

7 hours ago, Uriah said:

Hi Marilyn

Still wish you could address the city "descending out of heaven". God is omnipresent NOW. This prophecy is about something that takes place in the future. What do you think about this?

Hi Uriah,

Not sure what you want me to say about that. We are told that the city descends to near the earth. It will have God the Father and the Son`s authority and power (throne) there and be the interlocking of the spiritual and physical realms. Those given authority there will rule over Israel on the earth.

Note the city descends, but God`s seat of power and the Son`s seat of power do not move to below where the angels are or even where Lucifer was a kingpriest. The Lord Jesus Christ in His glorified body has His authority & power (symbol of throne) in the highest realm and will rule every realm under the Father.

regards, Marilyn.

[Uriah]

4 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

Two separate earthquakes. (not one)  To achieve a purpose, one global land mass.  One earthquake the mountains are moved, the second earthquake the mountains are not found and no more islands.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Hi Marv

Rev 21:1- And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Yeah, there it is. No more sea=one global land mass.

[Uriah]

13 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Uriah,

Not sure what you want me to say about that. We are told that the city descends to near the earth. It will have God the Father and the Son`s authority and power (throne) there and be the interlocking of the spiritual and physical realms. Those given authority there will rule over Israel on the earth.

Note the city descends, but God`s seat of power and the Son`s seat of power do not move to below where the angels are or even where Lucifer was a kingpriest. The Lord Jesus Christ in His glorified body has His authority & power (symbol of throne) in the highest realm and will rule every realm under the Father.

regards, Marilyn.

Hi Marilyn

Rev 21:3- Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

John 12:26- and where I am, there shall also my servant be

This seems to clearly be something other than "omnipresence". Because one could say, "He is with me" even now, there is a difference in these passages. What makes the, "highest realm", the highest realm?  And why would we not be allowed there? Consider an example that may help. Because of confusion in the past, changes had to be made in how air traffic controllers would understand which plane is "air force one". During repairs etc, the pres. would aboard another plane. The decision was made that whenever he flew on a plane- THAT PLANE became "air force one". Therefore when God is with men in the New Jerusalem, which the scripture shows, that city IS the highest realm.

 

[HAZARD]

"Uriah wrote, 

Hi Marilyn

Still wish you could address the city "descending out of heaven". God is omnipresent NOW. This prophecy is about something that takes place in the future. What do you think about this? "

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

God is not a universal nothingness floating around in nowhere.  He is not impersonal, immaterial, intangible, an unreal being. God is not a universal mind as some suggest, soul, spirit, conscience. goodness, principle, an abstract power or force filling the whole of space and solid matter, as false cults teach. God is not Omni-body; that is, His body is not everywhere at all places at the same time. He is just as visible, tangible, and material as the bodies of all other spirit beings. Even resurrected bodies of flesh and bone saints are called "spiritual" (1 Cor. 15:44), so spiritual bodies are of materialised, spiritualized substance, something we know nothing about, as far as experience is concerned, at the present time. Further more, the soul and spirit or the inner man is just as spiritual as God and His angels. The inner man out of His body, which is the outer man, is a spiritual body itself and has been seen with bodily parts corresponding with those of the outer man. The inner man or spiritual part of one person, after leaving the physical body, has been seen by another such spiritual part, as being fully conscious, capable of wearing cloths, and being carried by other spirits beings into material places of either rest and comfort or torments (Luke 16:19-31; Eph. 4:8; Heb. 12:22-23; Rev. 6:9-11).

Each member of the Godhead has His own personal spirit body, His own soul with all the soul feelings of other beings, His own personal spirit with all the spirit attributes and powers that other spirits of persons have. This is proved by the bodily presence of God to men.  Angels and all other kinds of spirits have also been seen with the natural eyes of men. The only difference between men and spirits is that men have earthly, "flesh and bone" bodies whereas spirit being have spirit bodies which are not mortal and fleshy like the bodies of men.

Spirit beings, including God Himself, cannot be omnipresent in body, for their bodies are of ordinary size and must be at one place at a time, in the same way that bodies of men are always localized, being in one place at a time. God, angels, and other spirit beings go from place to place bodily as men do; but their presence can be any place in the universe, wherever there are other persons who also have the sense of presence enough to feel the presence of others regardless of bodily distance between them. Christ is a true example of what we mean by omnipresence. He said, "Where two or three are gathered  together in my name, there am I in the midst of them" (Matt. 18:20).

In what sense is He in the midst of so many daily gatherings world wide? This could not mean that He is bodily present, for His body is in Heaven seated at the right hand of God as Scriptures declare (Psa. 110:1, 5; mark 16:19; Col. 3;1; Heb. 1;3: etc.)

God personally dwells in Heaven, not everywhere. Jesus addressed His Father and referred to Him as being in Heaven, EIGHTEEN TIMES Jesus said, Father which is in Heaven" (Matt. 5:16, 45, 48; 6:1-9; 7:11, 21, etc.). Shall we conclude that Jesus did not know what He was talking about? Not one time does one Scripture refer to God as being bodily everywhere. God is Omni-present but not Omni-body, that is He presence can be felt by moral agents who are everywhere, but His body cannot be seen by them everyplace at the same time. God has a body and goes from place to place like anybody else.

Presence is governed by relationship, not by bodily sight. When the body of anyone is not literally present, one cannot say that it is present. The presence of two persons may be felt though thousands of miles may separate them bodily. I such a case presence consists of union, relationship, memory, acquaintance, and association to the same end in life. The closer tow persons are to each other in any relationship, the more they feel each others presence in the thought life. So it is with God. God dwells in Heaven and persons on Earth that know Him and are in union with Him is spirit can feel His presence in their lives regardless of where they are on the Earth. This is what is meant by statements men use to prove that God personally fills the whole of space and matter. In Ps. 139:7 the paslmist said ,"whither shall I go from the spirit? Or whither shall I fell from they presence?" God said to Jeremiah, "Do not I fill heaven and earth?" (Jer. 23:23-24). Paul said, "In Him we live, and move, and have our being" (Acts 17:27-28).

We must understand all like passages, as teaching the omnipresence of God, but not omnibody of God. While I write I feel the presence of my wife and children who are many mile away at this time. They are alwaysin my thoughts, my plans, my life, and all that I do. I do nothing without them, yet they are far away. I am designing a new home for them to move into. I plan for them. I see them in their new home. I experience the thrill of having them with me. They are here with me in spirit and presence, planning with me, and we are working together to the same end in life. This presence is constant, though distance separates bodily at times. I don't feel the presence of other families I have never met and to which there is no union what so ever.

Man has the same faculty that God has to make his presence felt by others, only it is on a finite scale. God's attributes of presence is infinite, but it works literally on the same principle as that of man. It is governed by relationship and knowledge as well as bodily sight. men who do not know God seldom if ever feel His presence. Men can worship God at any time and place and their union with God in spirit will make the presence of God real. The greater the knowledge of God and the consecration to Him, the greater His presence is felt. In this sense Jesus Himself, who has a flesh and bone body and who is local in body - one place at a time, is with all men everywhere even to the end of the age (Matt. 28:19-20). In this same sense Paul was with the Corinthians in spirit when they delivered the fornicator to Satan for the destruction of the flesh (1 Cor. 5:1-8). In this sense Paul and other believers dwelled in each other regardless of bodily distance from each other (2 Cor. 7:3; Phil. 1:7). We know that the personal body of Christ, or those of believers, are not omnipresent when they are in the lives of others in spirit presence, so the same thing is true of the Father and the Holy Spirit.

 

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Edited December 14, 2018 by HAZARD

[Uriah]

Hi Hazard

I will go over this more. I liked the phrase about not having an "omnibody", but I have seen some bad things done with the idea of a "spirit body".
 

[Retrobyter]

8 hours ago, Uriah said:

Hi Retro

And so you see it the same here? Just a coincidence of words?

Sixth trumpet - Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.

Sixth vial - angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up

 

Shabbat shalom, Uriah.

Let's look at the whole context of each:

Revelation 9:13-21 (KJV)

13 And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God, 14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet,

"Loose the four angels which are bound in (Greek: epi) the great (large; wide) river Euphrates."

15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men. 16 And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them. 17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone. 18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths. 19 For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.

20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk: 21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

Revelation 16:12-16 (KJV)

12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. 

15 "Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame."

16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

While the first may be precursor to the second, these are NOT descriptions about the same event. Again, there is MUCH that happens between and the first LEADS INTO the second.