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Defense of the Post Trib Rapture


George

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11 hours ago, The Light said:

You can't seem to find it in scripture because the Lord tells you He is going to come when you think not. The Lord is obviously not going to spell out when he is coming. He tells you that. Why would there be shock and surprise that he is not spelling out when he is coming?

Matt 24

43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

"For in such an HOUR as ye think not the Son of man cometh." This does not speak the timing of His return in relation to other events. It's a truth, but not the whole truth.

11 hours ago, The Light said:

IF the Lord spelled it out and gave you a clear indication of when He was coming most would just clean up their act right before He comes. And yet HERE He tells people EXACTLY when He is coming.

Matt 24

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

How is it that we have been told that He will come in an hour that we think not and He has also given us signs of His coming and said, WHEN YOU SEE THESE THINGS BEGIN TO COME TO PASS, LOOK UP YOUR REDEMPTION DRAWS NIGH?

Does it matter when the sinner repents? Early, late, in between? It's a poor argument as it's based on emotion and not fact. No where does scripture say everybody needs to repent before a certain time. In fact as the time grows near more and more will repent and find salvation in Jesus.

So now he says EXACTLY when he is coming and then you ask your question. It's a good question. It's answered in the passage you quoted; IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS!

Clear timing of Jesus return in relation to another event. If his coming is after the 'tribulation of those days' and that is the GT, which only comes after the A of D then the return of Jesus is post trib, not pre.

11 hours ago, The Light said:

And then in Luke we see

Luke 21

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

In Luke we are told that we can escape all the things that will come to pass. Why are we instructed to look up when these things begin to come to pass? If we can escape all the things that will come to pass, how can we be here to see the things that begin to come to pass. Further, how can we escape all the things that come to pass and yet we see that immediately after the tribulation we see signs of his coming. That would mean that we went through the tribulation and did not escape all the things that would come to pass.

Indeed. Lets look.

"Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."

The hat is hung on the word 'escape' in this verse. That word is defined as follows:

ekpheugó: to flee away
Definition: to flee away
Usage: I flee out, away, escape; with an acc: I escape something.

This is an individual act of running from trouble, not harpazo, which many need to equate with ekpheugo to prove there is a pre-trib rapture. The idea here is we will be worthy to flee away from everything in Luke 21:10-24, but more likely is the escape, fleeing away, from the temptation to give into the spiritual death which accompanies the beast and his followers; taking the mark, for example.

11 hours ago, The Light said:

If you are having trouble finding the pretrib rapture you might look here.

Rev 5

And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

These 24 elders that are speaking for those that are redeemed from every kindred, tongue, people and nation have already been made kings and priests. This OCCURS BEFORE any seals have been opened. Which means that they have escaped the false Christs, wars, famines, pestilences etc. That means they have escaped the tribulation, which are the 1st 6 seals that we can also see in Matt 24.

It's always nice to have a conversation with a person who brings up fact. So many times the exchange is simply void of reason, sucked down the black hole of fleshy desire. 

Yes, this is an interesting scene, but it does not prove pre-trib and only strengthens what has been previously written on this topic. 

This phrase, "and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood", is not speaking to the gathering or rapture. The elders are praising the Lord for His saving work of shedding His blood to remit the sins of all that would call on His name, a fact contained throughout the entire canon. I agree, redemption by the blood happened before the seals opened, around 2000 years ago practically, but was the plan from the fall of man.

Verse 10 here also happened two millennia past, to wit:

"But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;" - 1 Peter 2

Again the elders are praising the Lord Jesus for that which was done during His work on earth, He already made all those saved by His shed blood royalty, and priests of the Most High God, two millennia past. The proof is in the definition of the two ideas important in Rev 5:9, has redeemed, and has made.

The idea of "has redeemed" is as  follows:

agorazó: to buy in the marketplace, purchase 

Definition: to buy in the marketplace, purchase
Usage: I buy.

"To buy", ongoing, not yet finished purchasing, in the act of redeeming still.

"Has made"

poieó: to make, do

Definition: to make, do
Usage: (a) I make, manufacture, construct, (b) I do, act, cause.

Again this is active at present. It's not 'I made', it's 'I make', still welcoming more friends into the royal priesthood.

So the elders are saying in effect the power and right to redeem and elevate status is in effect, 'has and is'. It's not about 'rapture', Jesus is being praised for His great worth. It's most probable in my mind this song that is sung is based on the prayers of the saints contained in the vials of odours which the elders hold as the context suggests. 

How do we know the elders were not there in heaven from eons past? We don't. To assume the condition of existence or non-existence at any point in time cannot be reliably determined sans facts. Basing a conviction on a lack of fact is dangerous territory especially concerning this book in particular.

 

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3 hours ago, Diaste said:

"For in such an HOUR as ye think not the Son of man cometh." This does not speak the timing of His return in relation to other events. It's a truth, but not the whole truth.

Exactly. He is telling you He is coming when you think not. How is that possible when He tells us exactly when He is coming?

 

Does it matter when the sinner repents? Early, late, in between? It's a poor argument as it's based on emotion and not fact. No where does scripture say everybody needs to repent before a certain time. In fact as the time grows near more and more will repent and find salvation in Jesus.

It's only a poor argument because you are missing the point of the argument. Not important enough to rehash.

 

So now he says EXACTLY when he is coming and then you ask your question. It's a good question. It's answered in the passage you quoted; IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS!

He does say exactly when He is coming, doesn't He. So the question is if He tells us EXACTLY when He is coming, how can He come at a time we are not expecting?

 

Clear timing of Jesus return in relation to another event. If his coming is after the 'tribulation of those days' and that is the GT, which only comes after the A of D then the return of Jesus is post trib, not pre.

Yes, He does tell us EXACTLY when He is coming. He is coming after the tribulation. He is saying there will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. He is saying to look up, your redemption draws nigh. And as we can see in scripture, he will come. You say we have a clear timing of Jesus return, and you're right, it's post trib. But that does not prove that He won't come in an hour that we think not, because He will. He is also coming pre trib. He comes pre trib for the Church and He comes post trib for the 12 tribes that are scattered across the earth. Do you think God will not keep His promise to His people that are scattered across the earth?

Rom 11

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

As the word says, salvation comes to the Gentiles (pretrib rapture of the Church). It will provoke the 12 tribes that have been scattered across the earth to jealousy, as they will see the salvation of the Gentiles. Then it is the time of Jacobs trouble. The twelve tribes that are scattered across the earth will be raptured, after the tribulation, before the wrath of God. The multitude that you see in Rev 7 is not only the church, but the 12 tribes whose eyes are opened. Only the remnant of the nation of Israel will go through the wrath of God.

 

 

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8 hours ago, Diaste said:

Indeed. Lets look.

"Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."

The hat is hung on the word 'escape' in this verse. That word is defined as follows:

ekpheugó: to flee away
Definition: to flee away
Usage: I flee out, away, escape; with an acc: I escape something.

This is an individual act of running from trouble, not harpazo,

You say it's an individual act of running, but where are you running to. Safety? Where? But if we go by the Word we see He is talking to all believers who will escape and stand before the son of man. That's where the escape is to.

 

which many need to equate with ekpheugo to prove there is a pre-trib rapture.

I certainly don't need it to prove a pretrib rapture. There are plenty of scriptures that prove a secret pretribulation rapture.

 

It's always nice to have a conversation with a person who brings up fact. So many times the exchange is simply void of reason, sucked down the black hole of fleshy desire. 

I'm a facts type guy. Scriptural facts. There are many reasons that there will be a pretribulation rapture. Proving that there is a post tribulation is not proof that there will not be a pretrib rapture.

 

Yes, this is an interesting scene, but it does not prove pre-trib and only strengthens what has been previously written on this topic. 

This phrase, "and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood", is not speaking to the gathering or rapture. The elders are praising the Lord for His saving work of shedding His blood to remit the sins of all that would call on His name, a fact contained throughout the entire canon. I agree, redemption by the blood happened before the seals opened, around 2000 years ago practically, but was the plan from the fall of man.

They were people (elders and the church) around the throne because they were redeemed from the earth in the pretribulation rapture.

 

Verse 10 here also happened two millennia past, to wit:

"But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;" - 1 Peter 2

And yet they are not around the throne.

 

How do we know the elders were not there in heaven from eons past? We don't. To assume the condition of existence or non-existence at any point in time cannot be reliably determined sans facts. Basing a conviction on a lack of fact is dangerous territory especially concerning this book in particular.

It's like the police pulling up on a group of 20 people. One of them yells out, YOU'RE NOT TAKING US TO JAIL. That person spoke for all 20. We see that the elders also speak for a group of people from every kindred, and tongue, and people and nation. They can't be just speaking for themselves because they cannot come out of every kindred, and tongue, and people and nation.

 

 

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2 hours ago, The Light said:

It's only a poor argument because you are missing the point of the argument. Not important enough to rehash.

Not missing the point. The argument goes that if people know when the rapture happens they will believe they can live willfully sinful lives and then repent moments before Jesus comes and then be saved; hence the need for a secret rapture like a thief in the night, and hour which they think not.

It's a poor argument because even if we know the general time of His return, after GT, we will never know the hour or the day as His coming is based on a single factor not associated with politics, theology, feasts, holidays or seasons, etc., a factor only the Most High watches. Also, pressure has a way of changing the heart of a sinner, there are no atheists in foxholes, the saying goes. It's more important to save the soul and not the body and so death for us is life, crisis reveals character which is why GT is coming, and it's coming for what you call the church.

2 hours ago, The Light said:

Yes, He does tell us EXACTLY when He is coming. He is coming after the tribulation. He is saying there will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. He is saying to look up, your redemption draws nigh. And as we can see in scripture, he will come. You say we have a clear timing of Jesus return, and you're right, it's post trib. But that does not prove that He won't come in an hour that we think not, because He will. He is also coming pre trib. He comes pre trib for the Church and He comes post trib for the 12 tribes that are scattered across the earth. Do you think God will not keep His promise to His people that are scattered across the earth?

Well, no specific language exists for a pre-trib gathering of believers where specific language exists for a post-trib gathering. There is no such thing as the 'church' separate from the seed of Abraham. Either we are the seed of Abraham or we are not, there is no alternative. Scripture is very specific, "If you are in Christ, you are the seed of Abraham." Also, we are the wild branch grafted into the natural olive tree; except we are grafted in to the olive tree that is Israel we have no salvation or redemption. Part of the natural tree is the nation of Israel which has slid back but has not been forgotten as they are the people of the Most High God. If the natural tree is going to be spoiled, why do you think you are exempt from the pressure of what's coming?

Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!

I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.

If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

 

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2 hours ago, The Light said:

You say it's an individual act of running, but where are you running to. Safety? Where? But if we go by the Word we see He is talking to all believers who will escape and stand before the son of man. That's where the escape is to.

As explained in a earlier post the escape is not from the death of the body but the temptation of the pressure of the mark, the taking of which will most likely doom a person to eternal death. It's a spiritual escape from the mark and the deception of the beast and the false prophet, as well as the dragon. It seems that we should be able to flee from the assault on our minds and belief and a physical fleeing from the war for our souls, if we pray and are found worthy. 

I never understand the pre-trib epistemology when it comes to this. What makes the adherents believe they are some super righteous group exempt from any trouble? Especially since our Lord endured terrible treatment and a horrible death, as did the apostles, as did the prophets of the OT. And what of the 100,000 believers that die each year for the name of Jesus Christ and for the testimony they hold?

Where is their pre-trib rapture?

3 hours ago, The Light said:

I certainly don't need it to prove a pretrib rapture. There are plenty of scriptures that prove a secret pretribulation rapture.

There are none. All we see are facts of the gathering in the so called pre-trib rapture verses in the NT. There is only one gathering that is described in full and that is after the GT. Any other pre-trib rapture verse is just details of the gathering in the Gospels and lacks timing, except for 2 Thess 2:1-8. This passage clearly says the coming and gathering occur after the revealing of the beast,  and at the same time refutes in toto the pre-trib rapture lie.

 

3 hours ago, The Light said:

They were people (elders and the church) around the throne because they were redeemed from the earth in the pretribulation rapture.

The redemption is through the blood and at the same time we were made kings and priests; "and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood" does not mean "has redeemed us to God through a pre-trib rapture."

The redemption to God here is through the shed blood when our sins were forgiven and we were made new creatures; it has nothing whatsoever to do with a fake rapture.

3 hours ago, The Light said:

And yet they are not around the throne.

I'm pretty sure you got the point I made.

3 hours ago, The Light said:

It's like the police pulling up on a group of 20 people. One of them yells out, YOU'RE NOT TAKING US TO JAIL. That person spoke for all 20. We see that the elders also speak for a group of people from every kindred, and tongue, and people and nation. They can't be just speaking for themselves because they cannot come out of every kindred, and tongue, and people and nation.

That's an interesting supposition. It's not analogous as there is no such idea in the passage in question. 

You'll see at some point in the future. The beast will come first and there will be no pretrib rapture. Best pray and be ready for battle.

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1 hour ago, Diaste said:
Quote

Not missing the point. The argument goes that if people know when the rapture happens they will believe they can live willfully sinful lives and then repent moments before Jesus comes and then be saved; hence the need for a secret rapture like a thief in the night, and hour which they think not.

It's a poor argument because even if we know the general time of His return, after GT, we will never know the hour or the day as His coming is based on a single factor not associated with politics, theology, feasts, holidays or seasons, etc., a factor only the Most High watches. Also, pressure has a way of changing the heart of a sinner, there are no atheists in foxholes, the saying goes. It's more important to save the soul and not the body and so death for us is life, crisis reveals character which is why GT is coming, and it's coming for what you call the church.

We see a group of people that are told that that day will not take them unaware.  And yet we see that the GOODMAN will not know when He is coming. As usual, there is a reason for that contradiction.

 

Quote

Well, no specific language exists for a pre-trib gathering of believers where specific language exists for a post-trib gathering.

Yep, exactly.  And yet there is a specific language on who will be harvested at the post tribulation rapture. That would be the 12 tribes that are scattered across the earth as proven by 144,000 first fruits. Additionally there are plenty of ways to tell that there will be a pretrib rapture.

Quote

There is no such thing as the 'church' separate from the seed of Abraham.

Never made such a claim. The word says that Israel will be blind until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. When the pretribulation rapture occurs Israel will become jealous and there eyes will be opened.

Rom 11

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Quote

Either we are the seed of Abraham or we are not, there is no alternative. Scripture is very specific, "If you are in Christ, you are the seed of Abraham." Also, we are the wild branch grafted into the natural olive tree; except we are grafted in to the olive tree that is Israel we have no salvation or redemption. Part of the natural tree is the nation of Israel which has slid back but has not been forgotten as they are the people of the Most High God.

This is nothing I have said. I agree we are the seed of Abraham which has absolutely nothing to do with WHEN God remove the scales from Israels eyes. God clearly says UNTIL the fulness of the Gentiles comes in blindness in part happened to Israel.

Quote

If the natural tree is going to be spoiled, why do you think you are exempt from the pressure of what's coming?

Because God says that the salvation of the Gentiles provokes Israel to jealously. I only believe what the Word is saying and He says that we will not know when the master is coming. The twelve tribes and the gleanings of the Gentiles are told to look up their redemption draws nigh. Two different circumstances.

 

Quote

 

I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.

If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

 

Nothing I disagree with so I am not understanding what point you are trying to make. I certainly understand that two (Israel and Gentiles) will be brought into one fold, and yet they, for the most part, are not brought in at the same time which we can prove by the 144,000 first fruits of the coming harvest of the 12 tribes that are scattered across the earth.

 

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On 3/5/2019 at 9:12 PM, Diaste said:

Yes, it is a hope the pretrib rapture is the truth. I can't seem to find it in scripture.

The purpose of the rapture is to resurrect the just from the dead and take all the saints out of the world before the tribulation comes, , in order that they may have fulfilled in them the purpose for which God has saved them. Jesus told the disciples that some would escape the terrible things that were to transpire on the Earth in the last days. He said, “Pray that you may be accounted worth to escape all these things of, Matt. 24, 25; Luke 21:1-19, 25-28, that shall come to pass, and stand before the Son of man,” Luke 21:34-36. These two passages in Luke 21:34-36 and John 14:1-3, are the only ones in the Gospels that are clear concerning the Rapture. Jesus did not reveal this, it was revealed by Paul many years later in 1 Cor. 15:51.

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16 hours ago, Diaste said:
Quote

As explained in a earlier post the escape is not from the death of the body but the temptation of the pressure of the mark, the taking of which will most likely doom a person to eternal death. It's a spiritual escape from the mark and the deception of the beast and the false prophet, as well as the dragon. It seems that we should be able to flee from the assault on our minds and belief and a physical fleeing from the war for our souls, if we pray and are found worthy. 

I never understand the pre-trib epistemology when it comes to this. What makes the adherents believe they are some super righteous group exempt from any trouble? Especially since our Lord endured terrible treatment and a horrible death, as did the apostles, as did the prophets of the OT. And what of the 100,000 believers that die each year for the name of Jesus Christ and for the testimony they hold?

Where is their pre-trib rapture?

Your questions just gave the answers. The 100,000 believers that die each year should be enough proof. Now and the last 2000 years has been mostly about Gentiles. The exception was Jesus being sent to the Jews. It wasn't until Paul came along and Peter got the word from the Lord to accept the Gentiles that the Gentiles were ministered to. The pretribulation rapture brings in the fullness of the Gentiles. Soon after that the 70th week will start and God will turn his attention to His people. Then at the end of the 70th week the post tribulation rapture will occur. As we can see by the 144,000 first fruits, the harvest will be the twelve tribes that are scattered across the earth. It's really just all about Gods plan, which He tells us about.

 

Quote

There are none. All we see are facts of the gathering in the so called pre-trib rapture verses in the NT. There is only one gathering that is described in full and that is after the GT.

The verses and timing are everywhere and yet you see nothing. The word says "seek and you will find" Are you seeking? Or have you turned a blind eye. God already tells you are not going to know when He comes and yet He tells us exactly when he will come. Two different events. Two different people, Gentiles and Jews. THAT'S WHY NO ONE CAN FIGURE IT OUT. One group, Gentiles, He says, SUMMER IS NIGH. One group of people, the Jews in the nation of Israel He says pray that your flight be not in the winter.

Here we see the secret pretrib rapture in the early summer. Here's your timing.

Song of Solomon 2

The voice of my beloved! behold, he cometh leaping upon the mountains, skipping upon the hills.

My beloved is like a roe or a young hart: behold, he standeth behind our wall, he looketh forth at the windows, shewing himself through the lattice.

10 My beloved spake, and said unto me, Rise up, my love, my fair one, and come away.

11 For, lo, the winter is past, the rain is over and gone;

12 The flowers appear on the earth; the time of the singing of birds is come, and the voice of the turtle is heard in our land;

13 The fig tree putteth forth her green figs, and the vines with the tender grape give a good smell. Arise, my love, my fair one, and come away.

 

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Any other pre-trib rapture verse is just details of the gathering in the Gospels and lacks timing, except for 2 Thess 2:1-8. This passage clearly says the coming and gathering occur after the revealing of the beast,  and at the same time refutes in toto the pre-trib rapture lie.

Like I said, understanding that there is a post trib rapture sure doesn't prove that there will not be a pre trib rapture.  The pre trib rapture is certainly no lie. If you knew nothing else, the feasts of Israel should tell you there is both a pretrib and post trib rapture.

 

16 hours ago, Diaste said:

The redemption is through the blood and at the same time we were made kings and priests; "and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood" does not mean "has redeemed us to God through a pre-trib rapture."

The redemption to God here is through the shed blood when our sins were forgiven and we were made new creatures; it has nothing whatsoever to do with a fake rapture.

I'm pretty sure you got the point I made.

That's an interesting supposition. It's not analogous as there is no such idea in the passage in question. 

You'll see at some point in the future. The beast will come first and there will be no pretrib rapture. Best pray and be ready for battle.

The battle is now. I suggest that you do as instructed. Watch and be ready, for in an hour that you think not, the son of man cometh.

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On 4/14/2019 at 6:15 PM, HAZARD said:

The purpose of the rapture is to resurrect the just from the dead and take all the saints out of the world before the tribulation comes, , in order that they may have fulfilled in them the purpose for which God has saved them. Jesus told the disciples that some would escape the terrible things that were to transpire on the Earth in the last days. He said, “Pray that you may be accounted worth to escape all these things of, Matt. 24, 25; Luke 21:1-19, 25-28, that shall come to pass, and stand before the Son of man,” Luke 21:34-36. These two passages in Luke 21:34-36 and John 14:1-3, are the only ones in the Gospels that are clear concerning the Rapture. Jesus did not reveal this, it was revealed by Paul many years later in 1 Cor. 15:51.

"Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must be clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality." - 1 Cor 15

What you are saying is that the last trump will sound before the first trump, or there are two 'last trumps'.

"When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come to pass: “Death has been swallowed up in victory." - 1 Cor 15

Over what then would this victory come? Traffic jams? Slow Wi-Fi? 

"For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own turn: Christ the first fruits; then at His coming, those who belong to Him."

Seems apt to think Paul was talking about the instant change we will experience at His coming and at the last trumpet, since Paul does mention both of those things in this chapter. Paul's conclusion here is that 1 Cor 15:51-52 occur at Jesus' coming and at the last trump; both of which occur at or near to the 6th seal.

A hundred thousand people around the world die every year for Jesus. Where is their rapture? Or is the rapture just for white, western, affluent, Christian churches? 

Luke said we would be counted worthy to flee, not be taken off the earth, if we sincerely prayed for protection. 'To escape' does not hold the meaning; "Jesus is going to come secretly and take all of us from this earth and transport us to heaven in the the twinkling of the eye."

In fact 'to escape' in Luke 21 is this idea;

ekpheugó: to flee away

Original Word: ἐκφεύγω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: ekpheugó
Phonetic Spelling: (ek-fyoo'-go)
Definition: to flee away
Usage: I flee out, away, escape; with an acc: I escape something.

The individual is running away from whatever it is they are confronted with. But I don't think this is restricted to a physical flight and is also a spiritual fleeing from the deception of the beast and the FP and the mark. Will we be counted worthy to steel our minds and reject the strong pull to heed the beast and take the mark to save our flesh? That is what we need to be counted worthy to escape individually.

 

 

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20 hours ago, The Light said:

Your questions just gave the answers. The 100,000 believers that die each year should be enough proof. Now and the last 2000 years has been mostly about Gentiles. The exception was Jesus being sent to the Jews. It wasn't until Paul came along and Peter got the word from the Lord to accept the Gentiles that the Gentiles were ministered to. The pretribulation rapture brings in the fullness of the Gentiles. Soon after that the 70th week will start and God will turn his attention to His people. Then at the end of the 70th week the post tribulation rapture will occur. As we can see by the 144,000 first fruits, the harvest will be the twelve tribes that are scattered across the earth. It's really just all about Gods plan, which He tells us about.

You do know dispensationalism is a farce? It's always been by grace from the time of Abraham. There is no such thing as Jew or Gentile. There are only the saved and the unsaved, those in Christ and those who are not.

Galatians 3:28

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
There is no separation, only false doctrine creates division where there is none.
 
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
It does not matter if we are a Jew or Gentile, it's the same Spirit. Jews are not more or less than the Gentiles, the determining factor is salvation by the blood of the lamb and the guidance and power of the Spirit, not national lineage.
 

Read Romans 11 for the full story.

 

21 hours ago, The Light said:

God already tells you are not going to know when He comes and yet He tells us exactly when he will come. 

Well, not really. He says we will we see the times as they approach, we will not know the hour and the day of his return. Your argument is flat.

 

21 hours ago, The Light said:

Two different events. Two different people, Gentiles and Jews. 

Read Romans 11 then understand there are NOT two groups. All who are in Christ are the seed of Abraham. (Gal 3:29) That means we are in the same group as Moses, Abraham, Elijah, Isaac, and Jacob, who is Israel.

21 hours ago, The Light said:

 THAT'S WHY NO ONE CAN FIGURE IT OUT. 

No, that's why you struggle.

21 hours ago, The Light said:

One group, Gentiles, He says, SUMMER IS NIGH. One group of people, the Jews in the nation of Israel He says pray that your flight be not in the winter.

"Then let them which be in Judea flee into the mountains:  Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.  And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:"

Jesus is speaking to whomever will hear in this portion of Matt. It's an assumption that all of the above is for the Jews only, and a weak proposition at that. The scripture says, "Let them which be in Judea..."

Lets look at that. Are you assuming only Jews live in Judea? That would be wrong. Lots of foreigners live there from many countries and not all are Jews. Scripture says, "Let THEM which be in Judea..." this has to include everyone and anyone in the region which extends from just north of Jerusalem south to the Negev and includes parts the West Bank and then west to the Sea. Jesus is not referencing a specific nationality here and so likewise he is not referencing any specific nationality when He says, "on the housetop not come down, which is in the field return and, your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day."  Jesus would not mention the Sabbath specifically after the other warnings if this was just about the Jews, Jesus is including everyone in Judea; Jews, Christians, Muslims, tourists, foreign nationals, exchange students, etc. Just as an aside the owner of this site is in the Negev, should he not be able to flee? 

21 hours ago, The Light said:

Like I said, understanding that there is a post trib rapture sure doesn't prove that there will not be a pre trib rapture.  The pre trib rapture is certainly no lie. If you knew nothing else, the feasts of Israel should tell you there is both a pretrib and post trib rapture.

True, what proves there is no pre-trib rapture is evidence to the contrary and the refutation contained in the very verses used to exploit a false doctrine.

Look to Jewish tradition if you wish, it will not help.

The beast will rise first and no one will be going anywhere.

You'll see, pray to be ready for the war.

 

 

 

 
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