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Defense of the Post Trib Rapture


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2 hours ago, childoftheking said:

Therefore, I believe Revelation 13:

(7) And it was given unto him (([[to make war with the saints]])), and to overcome them:

sums it up pretty well.   This specifies the antichrist will be able to make war with the Saints and to overcome them.

Verse 7 clearly is not speaking about refusing the "MARK" and being beheaded, but about being able to confront real Saints that are saved and to overcome them.   The best example is the antichrist being able to kill the Two Witnesses.   But nonetheless, this proves this can only take place during the Tribulation, not prior nor afterward.   

Only a proof according to your understanding.

Another understanding, which I hold, is that these saints are the "remnant of Jacob" left on earth after the Rapture, which Rapture takes place after the 6th Seal is opened. Those who ascend are the "great multitude" of Rev. 7. But many of those who remain, having not been ready when the Lord came, will also become saints, being converted when they see the Lord's coming, and

Zech. 12:10 ...look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.

These are the saints that go through the 1260 days of "the time of Jacob's trouble," being the same 1260 days foretold in Dan. 7 and 12, and Rev. 11-12-13, to test the earthly believers, "the ones keeping the commandments of God, and having the testimony of Jesus Christ." Rev. 12:17

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1 hour ago, WilliamL said:

Only a proof according to your understanding.

Another understanding, which I hold, is that these saints are the "remnant of Jacob" left on earth after the Rapture, which Rapture takes place after the 6th Seal is opened. Those who ascend are the "great multitude" of Rev. 7. But many of those who remain, having not been ready when the Lord came, will also become saints, being converted when they see the Lord's coming, and

Zech. 12:10 ...look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.

These are the saints that go through the 1260 days of "the time of Jacob's trouble," being the same 1260 days foretold in Dan. 7 and 12, and Rev. 11-12-13, to test the earthly believers, "the ones keeping the commandments of God, and having the testimony of Jesus Christ." Rev. 12:17

 

First of all, like I mentioned in my beginning post on this thread just (4 posts above this one), there are no scripture references to literally comply with the Pre-Trib False Doctrine:   my posts refuting Pre-Trib scripture:

 

***   One of the scriptures Pre-Tribbers use, are the scriptures describing the Second Coming.   And I love how they use Paul in 1 Thessalonians.   The verses before the infamous Paul describing how we that are alive [[REMAIN]] until Yeshua comes for us, specifically reveal, "the Church in Thessalonica asking Paul if they would ever see their dead family and friends who were believers and had died."  And Paul properly answered them.

+

The verse they use in Luke, is the answer to the verses before speaking about surviving the snares and traps of this world.   And somehow the snares and traps like alcoholism and addiction equate to the 7 year Tribulation for them.   ***

 

 

And Revelation scriptures are even easier to refute and all prove the Second Coming, not the magical second (pre-trib) before 7 years later the incorrect third coming...

 

With that in mind, that leaves both the Saints who are saved through Yeshua and the Saints who will be saved during the Tribulation.   

Revelation makes this clear the number of Tribulation Saints are so great in number (MULTITUDE) that John was unable to count them + the Angel specifically told John these Saints are from EVERY known language, every known tribe, every known clan, every known kin...in other words...the Gentile Saved + the Jews to be Saved.......Because Revelation 20 then reveals the "Beheaded Saved."

 

And Revelation 12 makes it clear that the antichrist will attack the Jews when they realize he is not their Messiah (mostly because he will stop the "Daily Sacrifice like Daniel 12 refers to).

 

But, Revelation 13:7 is specific that the antichrist will have authority and power to make war on the SAINTS (Gentile + convert Jews) at any given time + will overcome them (be able to defeat them like the Two Witnesses).   In my "opinion," only a few Gentile Saved will fall under this category and I am not talking about being Beheaded (except for those who believe the Pre-Trib and get suckered into believing the antichrist is the Second Coming (Pre-Trib) Messiah coming for them)(I feel they are just that ignorant, since they believe in such a stupid theory, brought to us by a literal heretic that has no factual scripture reference to stand on).

 

That does leave us with the remaining Gentile Saved.

 

The Book "Ascension of Isaiah" (Scholars believe should had been a part of our current Canon), has a few verses in it that I think best explains what the Gentile saved will be doing:

the antichrist:

4. This ruler in the form of that king will come and there will come and there will come with him all the powers of this world, and they will hearken unto him in all that he desires.

5. And at his word the sun will rise at night and he will make the moon to appear at the sixth hour.

6. And all that he hath desired he will do in the world: he will do and speak like the Beloved and he will say: "I am God and before me there has been none."

 

the Pre-Trib Saints that are deceived:

13 (a) And many believers and saints having seen Him for whom they were hoping was crucified Yeshua (these will be DECEIVED believing the antichrist is the Pre-Trib Messiah and be like Revelation 13:7 claims, war between Saints vs antichrist and antichrist wins, + the possibility of them being Beheaded)...

 

the Believers (Saints/Elect) (not fooled into believing the False Doctrine of Pre-Trib):

13 (b) ...and those also who were believers in Him (Yeshua) - of these (Gentile Saints) in those days (7 year Tribulation) will be left as His (Yeshua) servants , while they flee from desert to desert, awaiting the coming of the Beloved (Yeshua returns after Tribuation ends).

 

 

A side note here:

I believe Yeshua will protect us (those not fooled by the False Doctrine of Pre-Trib and be DECEIVED when the antichrist comes) (Yeshua will make us invisible/hard to locate to those searching for us) going through the Tribulation.   I even can believe, since it will be impossible to buy food and grow food (we will not take the "Mark" obviously because we won't be found and forced to choose between the Mark and Beheading), that Yeshua might provide us with "Manna" like He did for the Hebrews who He brought out of Egypt.

 

 

That also then leaves the question, WILL the Holy Spirit be present during the Tribulation?

Pre-Tribbers preach "NO!!"

But, had they stopped to think for a moment, they would understand, that the TWO WITNESSES for first 3 1/2 years of the 7 year Tribulation will also do great wonders and miracles.   They won't be doing these great wonders and miracles by their own power.   It will be by the Power of the Holy Spirit!!

 

So YES, the Holy Spirit will be present during the Tribulation!! (...and is another indication that the "Bride" will also be here during the Tribulation)...

Which is why I can believe that God will keep us hidden and feed us possibly with "Manna."

 

 

 

Edited by childoftheking
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6 hours ago, childoftheking said:

 

Quote

First of all, there are only 2 types of Books, the ONE Book is the Lamb's Book of life which ONLY the Lamb could take (your verse 8)(and that is speaking about JUDGEMENT which comes after Tribulation and the 1,000 year reign).   The other Books (the Books) represent those destined for the Lake of Fire.

Your statement is incorrect. You say that it is JUDGEMENT which occurs after the Tribulation. The 1st 6 seals ARE THE TRIBULATION. Please reference Matt 24:2-28. Then we see the coming of Christ and the and the wrath of God, immediately after the Tribulation. See Matt 24 and Rev 6.

Matt 24

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Rev 6

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

The Tribulation is the 1st 6 seals. When the seventh seal is opened, the wrath of God begins.


 

Quote

 

Therefore, I believe Revelation 13:

(7) And it was given unto him (([[to make war with the saints]])), and to overcome them: 

sums it up pretty well.   This specifies the antichrist will be able to make war with the Saints and to overcome them.

Verse 7 clearly is not speaking about refusing the "MARK" and being beheaded, but about being able to confront real Saints that are saved and to overcome them.   The best example is the antichrist being able to kill the Two Witnesses.   But nonetheless, this proves this can only take place during the Tribulation, not prior nor afterward.   

 

The Church has been raptured before the tribulation and we can see in Rev 5. The saints being killed during the tribulation are the twelve tribes that are scattered across the earth. We can prove that by looking at the first fruits in Rev 7 and Rev 14.

Rev 7

And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.

Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.

Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.

Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

Rev 14

And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.s=

If a farmer came and showed you a basket of corn and said, these are the first fruits of the harvest, you could determine that the harvest will be corn. Since we know that the first fruits of the harvest are of the twelve tribes that are scattered across the earth, we know that the harvest is the twelve tribes. As I said, the church is already in heaven before the tribulation begins. Immediately after the tribulation there will be a harvest of the 12 tribes from the earth and the church will come with Christ for this gathering from heaven.

Matt 24

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13

27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

 

 

6 hours ago, childoftheking said:
Quote

Now, from Matthew 24 and Revelation 7 we know the Saints gathered at the end of Tribulation amounted to a number so great it could not be numbered. 

Exactly, the saints are gathered after the Tribulation. The Tribulation period is the 6 seals. At the 6th seal "immediately after the tribulation" we have a gathering from earth (the twelve tribes) and from heaven (the Church). The return to heaven for the marriage supper and the wrath of God begins.

Quote

 Therefore, the Saints mentioned most likely are those immediately in the vicinity of the antichrist when he comes onto the scene, and a second scenario when the Jews figure him out around mid-trib when he stops "Daily Sacrifice."

The saints that are hunted down are the twelve tribes that are scattered across the earth. When the fullness of the Gentiles comes in at the pretribulation rapture, the Jews will become jealous and realize what has happened.

Rom 11

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

Additionally, don't forget that there is a 7th and 8th king to come.

Quote

But there are no scripture references to factually verify a Pre-Trib.   That is clearly a False Doctrine, introduced by what has been perceived to be from a heretic!!

There are plenty of scriptures that confirm there will be a pretrib rapture. Here's one.

Matt 24

42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

How is it possible for Jesus to tell us that immediately after the tribulation, He is coming. And yet he tells us that the Goodman will not know when He is coming.

You probably should learn the parable of the fig tree.

 

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7 hours ago, The Light said:

 

 

 

First of all, your original scripture referenced to WHO was able to "Open the Book."  Yeshua is the ONLY ONE able to open any of the Books plus I specified some of the Books.   But I should have also mentioned the Book held by the 7 seals.

I find it interesting that you are a Pre-Tribber and still believe the "Wrath of God" begins AFTER the Tribulation ends, which is correct.   But the typical Pre-Tribber believes the Wrath of God is the Tribulation, which technically is the Wrath of the Adversary.

 

Your scripture reference Revelation 7:

4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

 

^which SPECIFIES 144,000 of ALL the Tribes of Israel = 12 tribes times 12,000 persons from each tribe = a grand total of 144,000 persons

DOES NOT MATCH what the Angel tells John in verse 9

 

9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

 

Verse (4) SPECIFIES 144,000 Jews

Verse (9) is a GREAT MULTITUDE no one could count (you obviously can count 144,000, but not the people the Angel is discussing in verse 9)

 

Verse (4) = Jews

Verse (9) = Great Multitude that can't be counted = of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues (this clearly is not the 12 Tribes because it SPECIFIES all nations (Gentile Nations), all kindreds (More than the Jews = Gentiles like you and me), and people (More than the Jews = Gentiles like you and me), and tongues (More than just Hebrew/Yiddish but EVERY LANGUAGE of the Gentile speaking people).

 

Who are the people Verse 9 speaks about?

13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

 

Verse 9 clearly IS NOT the 144,000 because we can count that number.

Verse 9 is answered in Verse 14 = Saints of the Great Tribulation (and we know those people are GENTILES = the Church/the Bride)

 

And Chapter 20 is about the Beheaded 

Revelation 20:4 

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

 

 

 

Knowing just that much, makes it even clearer and obvious that WE ARE GOING THROUGH the TRIBULATION.

 

 

You put a lot of emphasis on the 144,000.   You do know that amount of people is not even enough to fill a town just bigger than a farm community.   And you act like it's a great number.   That is about 20,000 more people than you find in a National Football league game/even some college football stadiums, or the NCAA Basketball tourney.

 

And stressing the 144k like you do, puts me in mind of the Jehova Witnesses.

 

 

I believe you have built a case for Pre-Trib by misusing scripture, which is typical for the average Pre-Tribber, no matter their Denomination or beliefs.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by childoftheking
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15 hours ago, The Light said:

 

There are plenty of scriptures that confirm there will be a pretrib rapture. Here's one.

Matt 24

42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

How is it possible for Jesus to tell us that immediately after the tribulation, He is coming. And yet he tells us that the Goodman will not know when He is coming.

 

 

 

Even though Yeshua does claim it is immediately after Tribulation ends,  He does give us some warning signs, that when we see them we can believe it will be sooner rather than later for His return.

 

He tells us when Tribulation ends, the sun will darken, the moon will fail, the heavens will shake and cause stars to fall.

Even Revelation's verifies this:

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

 

Now, in all of those signs listed, we only know of 2 sure things:

(1) when these signs take place, Tribulation has definitely ended

(2) when these signs take place, the Second Coming is about to happen

 

But NOWHERE, do we know what "IMMEDIATELY" to God means.

We don't even know from the time we can see these signs, to specifically how long as in how many days will pass before Yeshua actually returns.

 

Technically, from Adam to Yeshua = 4,000 years and using the 1,000 years equals one day method =4 days

From Yeshua to now = 2,000 years or 2 days

Thousand Year Reign = 1 day

7,000 years = 1 week

 

So to even think we understand what Yeshua means by IMMEDIATELY, and then, by the time between seeing the signs till He actually comes, is honestly at best just a guess.  

I do not believe it's a year, 6 months, 3 months, 1 month.

But even 7 24 hour days, will seem like an eternity after witnessing the signs.

 

I do believe, for those of us waiting for His Return during the time between the signs and His Second Coming, it will be like the greatest revival has kick started.

It will definitely get us prepared, to fulfill Revelation 7:

9After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

10And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

11And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

12Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

 

Edited by childoftheking
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21 hours ago, childoftheking said:
Quote

I find it interesting that you are a Pre-Tribber and still believe the "Wrath of God" begins AFTER the Tribulation ends, which is correct.   But the typical Pre-Tribber believes the Wrath of God is the Tribulation, which technically is the Wrath of the Adversary.

Exactly. You know that the Wrath of God begins after the Tribulation, and most Pretribbers know that the Church is raptured before the Tribulation. Quite interesting.

 

Quote

 

Your scripture reference Revelation 7:

4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

^which SPECIFIES 144,000 of ALL the Tribes of Israel = 12 tribes times 12,000 persons from each tribe = a grand total of 144,000 persons

DOES NOT MATCH what the Angel tells John in verse 9

9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

 

Clearly it does not match and clearly it tells us it does not match.

9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

 

Verse (4) SPECIFIES 144,000 Jews

Verse (9) is a GREAT MULTITUDE no one could count (you obviously can count 144,000, but not the people the Angel is discussing in verse 9)


 

Quote

 

Verse (4) = Jews

Verse (9) = Great Multitude that can't be counted = of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues (this clearly is not the 12 Tribes because it SPECIFIES all nations (Gentile Nations), all kindreds (More than the Jews = Gentiles like you and me), and people (More than the Jews = Gentiles like you and me), and tongues (More than just Hebrew/Yiddish but EVERY LANGUAGE of the Gentile speaking people).

 

Who are the people Verse 9 speaks about?

13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

 

Verse 9 clearly IS NOT the 144,000 because we can count that number.

 

Clearly they are not the same, so we are in agreement.

 

Quote

Verse 9 is answered in Verse 14 = Saints of the Great Tribulation (and we know those people are GENTILES = the Church/the Bride)

No, we know there are Gentiles among those people. We also know the Church is already in heaven in Rev 5 before the Tribulation.

 

Quote

 

And Chapter 20 is about the Beheaded 

Revelation 20:4 

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

 

Knowing just that much, makes it even clearer and obvious that WE ARE GOING THROUGH the TRIBULATION.

 

I would recommend that you study the feast of Israel, learn what God says about the harvest and learn the parable of the fig tree. Then you might understand why the Church will not go through the Tribulation.


 

Quote

 

You put a lot of emphasis on the 144,000.   You do know that amount of people is not even enough to fill a town just bigger than a farm community.   And you act like it's a great number.   That is about 20,000 more people than you find in a National Football league game/even some college football stadiums, or the NCAA Basketball tourney.

 

I think God put a lot of emphasis on 144,000. Telling us that 12,000 come from each tribe and showing that they are the 1st fruits of a coming harvest.

 

Quote

I believe you have built a case for Pre-Trib by misusing scripture, which is typical for the average Pre-Tribber, no matter their Denomination or beliefs.

Earlier you found that it is interesting the I know that the wrath of God is after the Tribulation. Now I'm just a typical average Pre Tribber.

I believe you are drawing conclusions without the facts.

 

 

 

 

 

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11 hours ago, childoftheking said:


 

Quote

 

Even though Yeshua does claim it is immediately after Tribulation ends,  He does give us some warning signs, that when we see them we can believe it will be sooner rather than later for His return.

 

He tells us when Tribulation ends, the sun will darken, the moon will fail, the heavens will shake and cause stars to fall.

Even Revelation's verifies this:

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

 

So we agree.

Quote

 

Now, in all of those signs listed, we only know of 2 sure things:

(1) when these signs take place, Tribulation has definitely ended

(2) when these signs take place, the Second Coming is about to happen

 

We know that the tribulation has ended but the second coming, when Jesus sets up his Kingdom on earth is not about happen. What will happen is a rapture as proven by Matt 24. And it will be the gathering by the angels from HEAVEN AND EARTH. Here we see those gathered from earth.

Matt 24

40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

 

 

Quote

I do believe, for those of us waiting for His Return during the time between the signs and His Second Coming, it will be like the greatest revival has kick started.

It will definitely get us prepared, to fulfill Revelation 7:

9After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

10And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

11And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

12Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

 

The second coming is Rev 19

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

 

 

 

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It's really odd how the similarities in how we view and interpret scripture are pretty close and then on the issue of "rapture," we disagree.

 

Now, I totally believe we will be caught up in clouds to meet Yeshua and live with Him forever more.   The thing is, the "rapture" is an event where Yeshua makes an appearance.   And the scriptures are firm that Yeshua only makes TWO APPEARANCES:

(1) to be our Sacrificial Lamb

(2) the Second Coming

 

You really have to bend scripture in order to be convinced it reveals a 3rd Appearance.

 

The antichrist will come onto the scene at first and will portray being Yeshua.   He will have power, be able to perform miracles and literally wow those who witness him.   He will Declare that he is God.    BUT, if 1/3 of the entire population disappears before the antichrist comes onto the scene.   No one will accept the antichrist is actually God.   They will have that reminder of people just up and disappearing.   And the Tribulation does not begin until ALL have heard the Gospel, which means, ALL will also have heard of this "rapture" idea.   I do not believe Yeshua is going to give such a BIG CLUE away like that.   For one, we no doubt are in the Dispensation of Laodecia, where many so-called believers are fence riders.   That specific Dispensation God claims to be LUKEWARM will get you spewed out!!   That specific Dispensation also claims SOME BELIEVERS will be DECEIVED.   The ONLY THING left to Deceive some believers, is the antichrist.   Which means, those believers have to go through the Tribulation in order to be Deceived.

 

And that ^ (what I said about Believers in Laodecia) matches these verses to a T:

 

the antichrist:

4. This ruler in the form of that king will come and there will come and there will come with him all the powers of this world, and they will hearken unto him in all that he desires.

5. And at his word the sun will rise at night and he will make the moon to appear at the sixth hour.

6. And all that he hath desired he will do in the world: he will do and speak like the Beloved and he will say: "I am God and before me there has been none."

 

the Pre-Trib Saints that are deceived:

13 (a) And many believers and saints having seen Him for whom they were hoping was crucified Yeshua (these will be DECEIVED believing the antichrist is the Pre-Trib Messiah)

 

 

 

 

I just cannot for the life of me, believe in a Doctrine that the Apostles, the Church Fathers [[did not]] teach or preach and then 1850 years later a literal HERETIC brings forth this False Doctrine.

 

Do you know, this Doctrine is ONLY ACCEPTED in English Speaking nations, because they believe their ENGLISH BIBLE (which IS ONLY a translation and many portions are horrifically mistranslated)?

 

The Greek and Latin Vulgate verses coincide with one another, and on many passages of scripture, the English translation is NOWHERE close to the original!!

The Greek version is 1600 years OLDER than the KJV, the Latin Vulgate is 1100 years OLDER than the KJV.  

So, there ARE NO EXCUSES that the English Bible DOES NOT align with the originals.

And your Pre-Trib idea, CAN ONLY be found in a BADLY MISTRANSLATED English written Bible.

So, it clearly IS NOT FACTUAL!!

 

Why anyone creates a Doctrine from the English written Bibles is beyond me.   For the most part, they are going to automatically believe a lie, like YOU are believing!!

Edited by childoftheking
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17 hours ago, childoftheking said:
Quote

It's really odd how the similarities in how we view and interpret scripture are pretty close and then on the issue of "rapture," we disagree.

God flat out tells us He will come when we think not.

Matt 24

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Do you expect Him to paint a perfectly clear picture when He tells you He will come when you think not.

When you understand what the Feasts of God represents, how the harvest is performed and the parable of the fig tree, you will understand why there will be a pretribulation rapture.

As I have told you, we see 24 elders in heaven in Rev 6, obviously speaking for a group as 24 people cannot come out of every kindred, tongue, people and nation. That's the Church in heaven prior to seals being opened which is the Tribulation.

Quote

Now, I totally believe we will be caught up in clouds to meet Yeshua and live with Him forever more.   The thing is, the "rapture" is an event where Yeshua makes an appearance.   And the scriptures are firm that Yeshua only makes TWO APPEARANCES:

(1) to be our Sacrificial Lamb

(2) the Second Coming

I'm not aware that there are only two comings. What about the SECRET rapture?

 

Quote

  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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18 hours ago, childoftheking said:

It's really odd how the similarities in how we view and interpret scripture are pretty close and then on the issue of "rapture," we disagree.

 

Now, I totally believe we will be caught up in clouds to meet Yeshua and live with Him forever more.   The thing is, the "rapture" is an event where Yeshua makes an appearance.   And the scriptures are firm that Yeshua only makes TWO APPEARANCES:

(1) to be our Sacrificial Lamb

(2) the Second Coming

 

Quote

You really have to bend scripture in order to be convinced it reveals a 3rd Appearance.

I don't bend scripture. I go by exactly what it says. Anyone can find three. Four is the trick. You already see proof of the pretribulation rapture in Rev 5.
 

Quote


And the Tribulation does not begin until ALL have heard the Gospel, which means, ALL will also have heard of this "rapture" idea. 

Your statement is totally incorrect. There will be many that hear the Gospel before the Tribulation. Particularly Gods chosen, who become jealous when they see the Church raptured. The word says that the end will come, not the Tribulation will begin.

Matt 24

14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

 

Quote

the Pre-Trib Saints that are deceived:

No, the pre trib saints are raptured pre trib.
 

Quote


I just cannot for the life of me, believe in a Doctrine that the Apostles, the Church Fathers [[did not]] teach or preach and then 1850 years later a literal HERETIC brings forth this False Doctrine.

If you took the time to research this you would find you are listening to things that just aren't true. It's not wise to make decisions on false information.

 

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