Defense of the Post Trib Rapture

[missmuffet]

No I do not believe in the post trib.rapture.

[iamlamad]

Really, the final wrath of God is the Lake of Fire.  We are not appointed to this wrath.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

The first trumpet is the beginning of His wrath - we are not appointed to that part of His wrath either. This is the 70th week of DANIEL, not the 70th week of Paul - this time is set aside to finish up the OLD COVENANT with the people of Israel to whom it was given. It really has nothing to do with the church of Jesus Christ. Those that believe in the pretrib rapture will simply not be here. His wrath is designed for this purpose:

 

Dan 12

⁷ And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

 

Other translations use these words:

 

When the power of the holy people has been finally broken

When the shattering of the holy people has finally come to an end

when they have made an end of breaking in pieces the power of the holy people

 

Today Israel thinks they can take care of things on their own. After all, they have nukes too. But God is going to get them to the place where they are completely HOPELESS and about to be destroyed: they MUST call on God then - there is no other hope.

 

Of course, along with getting Israel in the place where they will call on God, he will destroy the earth and all the sinners in the earth too. But for His own children, He has provided a way of escape, the pretrib rapture.

 

Lamad

[Montana Marv]

Lamad

 

Rom 5:9 - Since now we have been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from Gods wrath through Him.  This is present tense.  Those of the Apostles day were justifed by his blood, and thus are saved from Gods wrath; and we who are also justified by his blood are also saved from Gods wrath.

 

Rom 1:18 - The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the thruth by their wikedness.  Rom 2:5 - Because of your subbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed v6 - God will give to each person according to what he has done.   This is the Great White Throne Judgment.  We are not appointed to this wrath.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Elhanan]

No thanks,this interpretation is not for me.

Posttribulationism teaches that the Rapture occurs at the end, or near the end, of the Tribulation. At that time, the church will meet Christ in the air and then return to earth for the commencement of Christ’s Kingdom on earth. In other words, the Rapture and Christ’s Second Coming (to set up His Kingdom) happen almost simultaneously. According to this view, the church goes through the entire seven-year Tribulation. Roman Catholicism, Greek Orthodoxy, and many Protestant denominations espouse a posttribulational view of the Rapture.

One strength of posttribulationism is that Jesus, in His extended discourse on the end times, says He will return after a “great tribulation” (Matthew 24:21, 29). Also, the book of Revelation, with all its various prophecies, mentions only one coming of the Lord—and that occurs after the Tribulation (Revelation 19-20). Passages such as Revelation 13:7 and 20:9 also lend support to posttribulationism in that there will obviously be saints in the Tribulation. Also, the resurrection of the dead in Revelation 20:5 is called “the first resurrection.” Posttribulationists assert that, since this “first” resurrection takes place after the Tribulation, the resurrection associated with the Rapture in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 cannot occur until then.

Posttribulationists also point out that, historically, God’s people have experienced times of intense persecution and trial. Therefore, they say, it should not be surprising that the church also experiences the Great Tribulation of the end times. In relation to this, the posttribulational view distinguishes “Satan’s wrath” (or “man’s wrath”) from “God’s wrath” in the book of Revelation. Satan’s wrath is directed against the saints, and God allows it as a means of purifying His faithful. On the other hand, God’s wrath is poured out on the Antichrist and his godless kingdom, and God will protect His people from that punishment.

One weakness of posttribulationism is the clear teaching of Scripture that those who are in Christ are not under condemnation and will never experience the wrath of God (Romans 8:1). While some judgments during the Tribulation specifically target the unsaved, many other judgments, such as the earthquakes, falling stars, and famines, will affect the saved and unsaved equally. Thus, if believers go through the Tribulation, they will experience the wrath of God, in contradiction of Romans 8:1.

Posttribulationists also face a difficulty in explaining the absence of the word church in all biblical passages related to the Tribulation. Even in Revelation 4–21, the lengthiest description of the Tribulation in all of Scripture, the word church never appears. Posttribulationists must assume that the word saints in Revelation 4–21 means the church, although a different Greek word is used.

And a final weakness of the posttribulational view is shared by the other two theories: namely, the Bible does not give an explicit time line concerning future events. Scripture does not expressly teach one view over another, and that is why we have diversity of opinion concerning the end times and some variety on how the related prophecies should be harmonized.

Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/posttribulationism.html#ixzz2UMUKrVd8

"

There are weaknesses in your pointing out the weaknesses of the post-trib stance.  You state that "those who are in Christ are not under condemnation and will never experience the wrath of God" using Rom 8:1 as your reference.  The context of Rom 8:1 is a salvivic issue not a wrath issue. We are alive in the Spirit and free in Christ and therefore not condemned to spiritual death.  There is no reference to wrath here except that one might infer that God's wrath remains on the unsaved.  Furthermore, the claim that God's wrath is never directed at his people is a questionable one.  Israel experienced God's wrath while living through the plagues of Egypt.  One might explain that God's wrath was directed at the Egyptians and not the Israelites - which is true. However even so, there are multitudes of verses in the OT where it specifically attributes God's wrath against his own people as a direct result of their repeated willful disobedience.  In regards to the church, I cannot find anywhere in the NT where it says that the church is immune from the wrath of God and will not experience the manifestations of his wrath upon the earth.  If you find such a scripture, please point it out to me.  Your 2nd objection is weak first of all because it is based upon an argument from silence which is an inherently weak argument to begin with. The claim that the word "church" is not found after the first few chapters of Rev supposedly means that the church is no longer addressed in the tribulation as she has already been raptured.  If that is truly the case, then the same thing would have to be said for some of the Epistles since the word "church" is not found in some of them either such as 1 & 2 Peter.  Using your logic, the letters of 1 & 2 Peter have nothing at all to do with the church - although they do contain that pesky word (for pre-tribbers) again - "saints."

[Endtime_Survivors]

On 7/4/2013 at 7:27 PM, Elhanan said:

And a final weakness of the posttribulational view is shared by the other two theories: namely, the Bible does not give an explicit time line concerning future events. Scripture does not expressly teach one view over another, and that is why we have diversity of opinion concerning the end times and some variety on how the related prophecies should be harmonized.

Hi elhanan.  I don't think it's an issue of diversity so much as an "either or" scenario.  Before and after can't both be true without changing the nature of what those concepts mean.

Also, I think the Bible does give an explicit timeline, but the start of that time line is marked by the agreement to rebuild the temple in Jerusalem.  When that happens, we'll  have 7 years left, split into two 3.5 year periods, the second of which will be the Great Tribulation, at which time the 7 trumpets of the trib will sound and "immediately after the tribulation of those days they will see me coming with the trump of God" (Matthew 24:29-31).  I've roughly paraphrased it for brevity.  It appears that the 7th trumpet is (at least partially) the return of Jesus.

[Sister]

I am just going to give scriptures why we believe that the saints will not be secretly raptured before the tribulation. These are straight forward verses.  Instead of me arguing with you, you can argue against these scriptures.

 

Daniel 7:21   I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

Daniel 7:25   And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
 

The above is speaking of the False Prophet who was prophesied to come in the last days.  He is called the little horn in the OT.  This is the great tribulation of all time, because it involves all saints of the earth as a whole, at the same time being punished by our legal system.

Where is the "rapture", if the saints are given into his hands for 3 1/2 yrs?

 

Revelation 13:7   And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Confirmed in the New Testament also.  Speaking of the same man, and the same time.  Daniel told us it will only be for 3 1/2 yrs.

 

What does it mean to be given into someone's hands?  What does it mean to have someone prevail over you?  Does it mean you have already been whisked away?  Please explain why we shouldn't believe these scriptures?

[Sister]

 

 Revelation 6:9   And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

  Revelation 6:10   And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

  Revelation 6:11   And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

 

In the previous post, the saints are given into the false prophets hands for 3 1/2 yrs.  This means he has the power to do with them what he likes, and if he "prevails over them", then he has the power to kill them.

This is not a time we are all looking forward to dear brethren, but a time we must be prepared for spiritually.  Not all will die, but persecutions will definately take place for all.  Some will be spared, but put in prison.

 

 Revelation 13:15   And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

  Revelation 13:16   And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

  Revelation 13:17   And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

 

If we still have one foot in Babylon, now is definately the last call to take it out.  Remember Esau lost his inheritance because he was hungry that day.

Revelation 18:2   And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

Revelation 18:4   And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

To come out of Babylon completely is to finally reject the mark of the beast.  This is the big temptation that is coming upon us all.  If we take the mark of the beast, we will receive all of her plagues.  Her plagues are the wrath of God.  To choose Christ is to avoid the wrath that is coming.  With a hungry belly, many will fall.

[Sister]

Revelation 20:4   And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Be strong, build up your faith daily and Christ will provide a little help.  Do not rock the children to sleep but wake them up.  We of the last generation are no better than the others before us.  The watchers must sound the alarm, ...warn the brethren as we were warned,...lest their blood be upon us.

 

 Revelation 13:10   He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

[Sister]

  2 Corinthians 12:10   Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

 

  Daniel 7:25   And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

 

 Revelation 12:17   And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

[Sister]

Revelation 14:8   And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

  Revelation 14:9   And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

  Revelation 14:10   The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

  Revelation 14:11   And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

  Revelation 14:12   Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

 

The wrath of God here is given to only those who receive the mark of the beast.

Pre tribbers say, we are not given to wrath, but to salvation. 

God says if you worship the beast and his image, or receive the mark of his name, You WILL be given to his wrath.

Pre-tribbers say, "that's not talking about us, we have been raptured already, that's the others who come to Christ after we've gone"

There's no getting out of it.  The scriptures state "here is the patience of the saints".  You will now see who keeps the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus, and who doesn't.  There will be a division now, and lip service will mean nothing.  It's our actions.
 

Mark 8:35   For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.