Defense of the Post Trib Rapture

[Uriah]

Hello Steve,

Yes, the pre-trib/pre-wrath teachings are impossible. So I will start with the Rev. 15: scenario. NOBODY can enter until the plagues are completed-period. If people have already been raptured, where are they. The only place shown in scripture is in the presence of God. Guess where He is.  

And if they are already raptured before the end, will there be another rapture for those who come to believe and remain to the end? Just like pre trib teaching, eh? An insurmountable dilemma. Even more so with resurrections. The number of resurrections in pre trib/wrath exceeds what scripture teaches. A resurrection at the rapture and no more resurrections until 1,000 yrs later. But you would need yet another for those who die before the end of the tribulation. Impossible. 

As to the sequential version of seals, trumpets, vials, more impossible scenarios arise:                                                                                                                                        The 6th seal shows the entire world already seeing JESUS and cowering at His presence. And did you notice it says , "the Great Day of His wrath is come". ???  So is there another "Great Day" we don't know about? The heaven (sky) also departs in this chapter while it says global geographic changes take place. Can you say, "New Heavens and New Earth"? But then He would have to destroy  this new world (with all the following plagues)and get a re-do of a re-do. NOT!

Yes the "similarities" are PROOF of a non sequential story. They ALL end with lightning, voices, thunders, hail and a quake. The Euphrates is mentioned in TWO places, as is the sun being affected, the sea, and geological upheavals-mountains &islands flee away- twice, you think?

So I don't believe the pre trib/wrath teachings because they collide with scripture.

Additionally, your quote in Rev. 7:1 shows you stop at ...:after this..." Why?  The next two words tell the story. (which can be found elsewhere in Rev.) "After this I saw..." John tells us what he saw in visions one after the other. (sequentially) You have cut off his words to make it appear he is saying what happened next not what he SAW next.

 

Edited July 2, 2018 by Uriah

[Steve Conley]

13 hours ago, Uriah said:

Hello Steve,

Yes, the pre-trib/pre-wrath teachings are impossible. So I will start with the Rev. 15: scenario. NOBODY can enter until the plagues are completed-period. If people have already been raptured, where are they. The only place shown in scripture is in the presence of God. Guess where He is.  

And if they are already raptured before the end, will there be another rapture for those who come to believe and remain to the end? Just like pre trib teaching, eh? An insurmountable dilemma. Even more so with resurrections. The number of resurrections in pre trib/wrath exceeds what scripture teaches. A resurrection at the rapture and no more resurrections until 1,000 yrs later. But you would need yet another for those who die before the end of the tribulation. Impossible. 

As to the sequential version of seals, trumpets, vials, more impossible scenarios arise:                                                                                                                                        The 6th seal shows the entire world already seeing JESUS and cowering at His presence. And did you notice it says , "the Great Day of His wrath is come". ???  So is there another "Great Day" we don't know about? The heaven (sky) also departs in this chapter while it says global geographic changes take place. Can you say, "New Heavens and New Earth"? But then He would have to destroy  this new world (with all the following plagues)and get a re-do of a re-do. NOT!

Yes the "similarities" are PROOF of a non sequential story. They ALL end with lightning, voices, thunders, hail and a quake. The Euphrates is mentioned in TWO places, as is the sun being affected, the sea, and geological upheavals-mountains &islands flee away- twice, you think?

So I don't believe the pre trib/wrath teachings because they collide with scripture.

Additionally, your quote in Rev. 7:1 shows you stop at ...:after this..." Why?  The next two words tell the story. (which can be found elsewhere in Rev.) "After this I saw..." John tells us what he saw in visions one after the other. (sequentially) You have cut off his words to make it appear he is saying what happened next not what he SAW next.

 

12

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Uriah, there is no reason for you to get so testy, I'm just asking questions and making observations. I have had little interaction with those who call themselves posttribulationists.

Concerning Rev 15:8, I'm afraid you are reading a lot into that. It means exactly what it says. It makes no reference to our gathering unto Christ. It just says that no man can enter during the execution of the seven last plagues.

Rev 15:8  And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.

It appears that you don't really know what it means to hold the pre-wrath model. The gathering of the elect to Christ takes place at His appearing and revelation which happens on the first day of His parousia and the first day of the day of the Lord. This only happens once. It is immediately preceded by the resurrection of those who are Christ's at His coming, which is the first resurrection. Which also only happens once. I don't know where you are getting what you are saying.

Rev 6:12-17 describes the cosmic sign which announces that the day of the Lord is impending. On the very same day, Jesus is revealed from Heaven with His holy angels and the earth-dwellers who had been persecuting the church and Israel to near extinction (Matt 24:22; Luke 18:8) in fear attempt to hide from His wrath which follows.

Uriah, it is the day that has arrived, the day of the Lord. The day has a beginning point, which is Jesus' arrival to reveal Himself and resurrect the dead in Christ, change the survivors of the great tribulation, and gather all the elect to Himself. Once we are safely before the throne and the 144,000 are sealed for protection through the plagues of God's wrath, He begins to pour out His wrath upon the Beast worshipping earth-dwellers in the form of the trumpet and vial judgements. These expressions of God's fierce wrath begin when the day of the Lord begins, and they last for many months at minimum and for no more than just short of 3.5 years.

Apparently, you don't know the pre-wrath model because it is a synthesis of what is true within the pre, mid, and post trib models.

Similarities are proof of nothing but that they are similar. Your hermeneutic should be one that recognizes every statement of the Scriptures to be true and that a proper understanding will yield no contradictions.

Finally, concerning my quote of Rev 7:1, I have nothing to hide. "After these things" is clear indication that the 144,000 are sealed after the events described by John at the opening of the first 6 seals. There is no way around that. Your model collides with the Holy Scriptures. See full text below.

Rev 7:1  And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
Rev 7:2  And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
Rev 7:3  Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
Rev 7:4  And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
Rev 7:5  Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
Rev 7:6  Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
Rev 7:7  Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
Rev 7:8  Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.
Rev 7:9  After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Rev 7:10  And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
Rev 7:11  And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 7:12  Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
Rev 7:13  And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
Rev 7:14  And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Rev 7:15  Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
Rev 7:16  They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
Rev 7:17  For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
 

Hallelujah

 

[Uriah]

Hi again Steve

I don't mean to sound "testy". Just trying to b direct. Even in your latest response there is proof of the things I said. There even seems to be a reliance on the "argument form silence" at one point. So let me ask you, in your chart showing the rapture in the second half of a 7 yr. period, what happens to believers in the time following-right up to the end?

[Steve Conley]

3 hours ago, Uriah said:

Hi again Steve

I don't mean to sound "testy". Just trying to b direct. Even in your latest response there is proof of the things I said. There even seems to be a reliance on the "argument form silence" at one point. So let me ask you, in your chart showing the rapture in the second half of a 7 yr. period, what happens to believers in the time following-right up to the end?

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Uriah, the only ones I know of that will be upon the earth is the Israelites that have the seal of God in their foreheads and those hidden in the wilderness for 1260 days (Rev 12). These are said to be protected from the plagues (Rev 7:1-8; Rev 9:4). However, there will be unbelievers during the day of the Lord who in their mortal bodies will be ruled by Christ in His Kingdom (Zech 14:16; Matt 25:31-46).

I don't pretend to understand every aspect of what is going to take place. I just believe what has been revealed to us in the Scriptures.

Hallelujah

[Uriah]

I see, Thanks, Steve,

There are believers present right up to the end. This can be seen in Rev. 7 and 20. (came out of great tribulation standing before the throne etc.) They resist the mark of the beast and are in the FIRST resurrection. There could not have been a resurrection before this or yet another one AND another rapture would be needed. But we would have run out of resurrections listed in the bible. Soem call these people "tribulation saints" and claim they will re-populate the Earth. Nowhere can this be found in in scripture either. In fact, if they believe the SAME Gospel as we do, and ALL of those things in the Gospel are not afforded to them, it is another gospel.

[Steve Conley]

2 hours ago, Uriah said:

There are believers present right up to the end. This can be seen in Rev. 7 and 20. (came out of great tribulation standing before the throne etc.) They resist the mark of the beast and are in the FIRST resurrection. There could not have been a resurrection before this or yet another one AND another rapture would be needed. But we would have run out of resurrections listed in the bible. Soem call these people "tribulation saints" and claim they will re-populate the Earth. Nowhere can this be found in in scripture either. In fact, if they believe the SAME Gospel as we do, and ALL of those things in the Gospel are not afforded to them, it is another gospel.

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Uriah, there is no way of getting around the fact that the day of our gathering to Christ will be the day that God's wrath begins to be poured out upon the unbelieving, Beast worshipping, earth-dwellers (Lk 17:26-30; 2Thes 1:6-10). There is also no getting around the fact that the trumpet and vial judgements will take many months at a minimum. The fifth trumpet alone is given 5 months.

I believe that you think that because the Beast once revealed continues for 42 months that the persecution of the elect continues for 42 months also. That is not the case. Jesus said that the period of great tribulation will be cut short to save some of the elect alive. It is cut short by our gathering to Christ in the clouds and being taken to the Fathers house to stand before the throne (Rev 7:9-17). Once we are removed from the earth (kept from the hour), He will initiate the salvos of His wrath upon our persecutors.

Revelation 20:4-6 isn't describing the event of the first resurrection just the results of it. The persecution that the church is called unto will continue until the middle of the week at which point it will become unprecedented. This time of unparalleled trouble will continue until it is cut short by the return of Christ. It is out of this period of unprecedented persecution that the dead in Christ are resurrected, the surviving elect are changed, and all are gathered to Christ to live and reign with Him.

There is no other resurrection or rapture needed save that of the 2 witnesses unless the timing of their resurrection and rapture is at the same time as ours.

With a small change, I can wholeheartedly agree with your statement as I have amended it below.

There are believers present right up to the arrival of Christ at His parousia. This can be seen in Rev. 7 and 20. (came out of great tribulation standing before the throne etc.) They resist the mark of the beast and are in the FIRST resurrection. There could not have been a resurrection before this or yet another one AND another rapture would be needed. But we would have run out of resurrections listed in the bible. Some call these people "tribulation saints" and claim they will re-populate the Earth. Nowhere can this be found in scripture either. In fact, if they believe the SAME Gospel as we do, and ALL of those things in the Gospel are not afforded to them, it is another gospel. 

Hallelujah

Edited July 4, 2018 by Steve Conley

[Uriah]

So, can I take it that you mean there is a "parousia" and something else? Also, if there are believers present right up to the end, HOW do they get to heaven?

[Steve Conley]

2 minutes ago, Uriah said:

So, can I take it that you mean there is a "parousia" and something else? Also, if there are believers present right up to the end, HOW do they get to heaven?

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

The arrival of Christ with the holy angels will initiate the parousia and the day of the Lord or day of Christ. They are essentially the same thing. The day of the Lord is His eternal reign as best as I can tell. It will start with our rescue and His wrath upon our persecutors. Then judgement will fall upon the nations. He will then rule them with a rod of iron.

The testimony of Revelation is that "they repented not" when the plagues of God's wrath fell upon them. Add to that the eternal condemnation pronounced upon those who take the mark and worship the Beast. Also, there is the strong delusion sent upon them. I don't know of any explicit statement that any is being saved after we are taken to be with the Lord. The remnant of Israel will be saved when they look upon Him whom they had pierced. I believe that is at Christ's revelation right before the resurrection and rapture.

It does appear that there are those who, in their mortal bodies, enter into the Kingdom over which Christ rules.

Hallelujah

[Uriah]

14 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

I don't know of any explicit statement that any is being saved after we are taken to be with the Lord.

Hallelujah

Your chart shows otherwise. If taken sequentially as you say, the mark of the beast is imposed AFTER the rapture. And those before the throne in Rev, 7 who experienced the tribulation and those in Rev. 20 are noted to have resisted the mark. Since they are shown to be with God, the must have gotten saved AFTER the rapture. Thus, to get there they would require ANOTHER rapture for those who are "alive and remain" (Greek + survive) and for those who died ANOTHER resurrection! 

Edited July 5, 2018 by Uriah

[Steve Conley]

7 hours ago, Uriah said:

Your chart shows otherwise. If taken sequentially as you say, the mark of the beast is imposed AFTER the rapture. And those before the throne in Rev, 7 who experienced the tribulation and those in Rev. 20 are noted to have resisted the mark. Since they are shown to be with God, the must have gotten saved AFTER the rapture. Thus, to get there they would require ANOTHER rapture for those who are "alive and remain" (Greek + survive) and for those who died ANOTHER resurrection! 

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Uriah, the mark is forced upon the world beginning in the middle of the week which is when the unprecedented persecution begins. The great tribulation, that is unparalleled persecution of the elect (the church) and Israel, will continue until the day that the sun goes dark and the moon is turned to blood. That cosmic sign will announce the impending arrival of our Great Saviour. It is after His appearing and revelation that we are resurrected and raptured. This must happen in the second half of the week.

Jesus says that the unprecedented persecution will be cut short (shortened) to save some of the elect alive (Matt 24:22). This cutting short is not achieved by stopping the Beast. He is permitted his 42 months. It is cut short by removing the object of Satan's wrath, the elect. When we are resurrected and changed and taken to Christ in the clouds and brought before the throne (Rev 7:9-17), Christ is free to unfurl His fierce indignation upon the earth dwellers who worship the Beast.

I don't understand what you mean, "Your chart shows otherwise."

Hallelujah