Uriah Posted May 5, 2019 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 11 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,364 Content Per Day: 0.59 Reputation: 277 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/03/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted May 5, 2019 1 hour ago, Diaste said: Good morning Uriah, I agree. However, Paul says 'last trump'. Only one last trump I know of and that's the 7th trump of Revelation. Paul had insight to the future as Isaiah does not mention a 'last trump' but a 'great trumpet'. Given the rest of the evidence in Isaiah 26-27 I would concur both chapters are end of the age at the time of Jesus 2nd coming, the resurrection of His people, the defeat of the armies of the beast, and the capture of Satan. Doesn't change the fact that 'last trump' has nothing to to do Jewish tradition surrounding the celebration of trumps in Lev 23 and everything to do with a real 'last trump' from the only series of trumps so recorded in scripture. Good morning Diaste, I think I understand what you are saying and would like you to consider a few more comments regarding these things. It looks like you have an "argument from silence" at work, relying on on what something doesn't say rather than what is actually there. Secondly, Paul;s "last trump" certainly indicates there were others before it. For all we know he may not have listed the previous trumpets because he felt it was unnecessary because the readers were familiar with his teachings. We have no idea whether or not he taught the readers in Corinth that there were seven or not. Yet there is in Isaiah a great trumpet sound in proximity of dead people living again. I would think the 7th trumpet would actually be a great trumpet too, likely the greatest. The serpent is punished according to Isaiah, and the serpent being punished in Rev. 20 coincides with the first resurrection. Unless there is another resurrection before the thousand years are expired I think we have a match. I am not looking for God's word to be written exactly the way I prefer but instead compare what is there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Light Posted May 5, 2019 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,078 Content Per Day: 1.12 Reputation: 201 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/17/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted May 5, 2019 On 5/3/2019 at 4:28 AM, Diaste said: Those are the commands of the Lord God, not traditions of men. Another example of forcing scripture to say what one desires instead of hearing. I am quite aware that those things are what God told the Israelite's to do. They are the feasts of God. Thought you might need a refresher course, because if you don't understand the feasts of God, you will not understand what will occur in the future. And being Jewish, Paul certainly knew what the last trump was when he wrote about it, and also the first trump and the great trump. As I said before......... In Judaism, there are three trumpets that have a name. They are the first trump, the last trump, and the great trump. Each of these trumpets occur in the Jewish year and represent a specific day. The first trump is blown on the Feast of Shavuot (Pentecost) . The last trump occurs on Rosh HaShanah, the Feast of Trumpets. The great trumpet is blown on Yom Kippur, which will herald the return of the Messiah back to earth. Paul and the Jews know what the last trump is, as they blow it every year. It is the Gentile that is clueless of Gods feast and what they represent. Many believe that the last trump is the 7th trump, that is blown by an angel, which wasn't even known about until John had his revelation, many decades later. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Light Posted May 5, 2019 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,078 Content Per Day: 1.12 Reputation: 201 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/17/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted May 5, 2019 On 5/3/2019 at 4:42 AM, Diaste said: Paul did not have to explain because he was speaking of the future not the past. Paul also taught we should not rely on tradition, that Christ and the resurrection is our future hope and it's not based on the past. Paul did not have to explain because the Jews knew what the last trump was, as it is blown every year, on God's feast day. On 5/3/2019 at 4:42 AM, Diaste said: Quote It's doesn't matter when the Revelation was given to John, Paul and John both heard from the same Spirit and the same Lord, Paul knew about the last trump because he heard it from Jesus himself, remember the road to Damascus? And if Paul and John were referencing different trumps, and if Paul was referring to some old Jewish tradition then they contradict each other and Paul contradicts his own words. Weak, very weak. So now you claim that Paul got the information on the road to Damascus and thought it best to teach confusion. He would be purposely leading the Jew astray. Not likely or logical or spiritual. Quote You'll see. Such an HOUR as you think not could be any hour of any day of any year throughout time. Consider, "...such an hour as ye think not..." You are thinking it must come before certain events when the words of our Lord specify it will not come as you think, or when. Jesus is giving a warning to watch and be ready. He give this warning after telling people exactly when He will come. He will come after the tribulation. Immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened and the moon will not give light and the stars will fall from heaven and then will appear the sign of the son of man. He says to look up your redemption draws nigh. There is reason He says exactly when He will come and then says He will come in an hour you think not. That would be the pretrib rapture that we can see in Rev 5. And there are unicorns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uriah Posted May 5, 2019 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 11 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,364 Content Per Day: 0.59 Reputation: 277 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/03/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted May 5, 2019 Hi guys, I just wanted to add a few comments on these things too. If we think Paul would contradict Jesus, we would be mistaken. Jesus said no man knows the day or hour. So if we think it is on the feast of trumpets, we would know the day. The same goes for the Day of atonement with a great trumpet. We would know the day. Any other trumpets? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uriah Posted May 6, 2019 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 11 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,364 Content Per Day: 0.59 Reputation: 277 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/03/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted May 6, 2019 29 minutes ago, Da Puppers said: But "that day" is not the day of his coming, NOR to the great tribulation that will precede that day. But it refers to the Day of the Lord. It's not about the when it shall come, it's about WHAT shall come to pass when that day arrives. He is not coming on the Day of the Lord? There were things being said about the 7 trumpets etc. Jesus Himself said there would be a trumpet when He comes. And it is at the very end of the tribulation. Paul and Peter both refer to the Day of His coming as the Day of the Lord. My point was that pinning that day to a Jewish feast would make it so Jesus would be wrong about no man knowing the day and hour. So we can surmise that it is not on one of those days. Yet those are not the only places to look. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diaste Posted May 6, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 14 Topic Count: 67 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 6,625 Content Per Day: 1.99 Reputation: 2,366 Days Won: 2 Joined: 03/17/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted May 6, 2019 21 hours ago, Uriah said: Good morning Diaste, I think I understand what you are saying and would like you to consider a few more comments regarding these things. It looks like you have an "argument from silence" at work, relying on on what something doesn't say rather than what is actually there. Secondly, Paul;s "last trump" certainly indicates there were others before it. For all we know he may not have listed the previous trumpets because he felt it was unnecessary because the readers were familiar with his teachings. We have no idea whether or not he taught the readers in Corinth that there were seven or not. Yet there is in Isaiah a great trumpet sound in proximity of dead people living again. I would think the 7th trumpet would actually be a great trumpet too, likely the greatest. The serpent is punished according to Isaiah, and the serpent being punished in Rev. 20 coincides with the first resurrection. Unless there is another resurrection before the thousand years are expired I think we have a match. I am not looking for God's word to be written exactly the way I prefer but instead compare what is there. I agree with Isaiah 26-27 referring to the end of the age and the great events that will take place. I agree the 'great trumpet' is the last trump, there is more than enough evidence for that conclusion. "And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years." This is the first resurrection before the millennium consisting of those who went through GT, those raised at the great trumpet, the last trump, a loud trump, the trump of God; all the same trumpet from Isaiah, Matthew and Paul. We don't disagree on this unless I'm missing something. On occasion it's been pointed out I'm using logical fallacy as an argument but it's not often. What is not there in a text is as important as what is there, and what is missing compels the reader to question but not assume nor conclude. I believe I was pointing out that assumptions are made from the Jewish traditions surrounding the feast of trumpets when the passage concerning the command of God says no such thing. There is no first or last trump in Lev 23:23-25 and since the text is silent we cannot conclude there is proof of a last trump, or how many, being referred to here; even as for obvious reasons there would at some point be a last trumpet sound on the this day, whether one or many. There is only one series of trumps where there is clearly a last one in the whole of scripture and those are the 7 trumps of Revelation. If you could, please give an example of my argument from silence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uriah Posted May 6, 2019 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 11 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,364 Content Per Day: 0.59 Reputation: 277 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/03/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted May 6, 2019 (edited) 5 hours ago, Diaste said: I agree with Isaiah 26-27 referring to the end of the age and the great events that will take place. I agree the 'great trumpet' is the last trump, there is more than enough evidence for that conclusion. "And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years." This is the first resurrection before the millennium consisting of those who went through GT, those raised at the great trumpet, the last trump, a loud trump, the trump of God; all the same trumpet from Isaiah, Matthew and Paul. We don't disagree on this unless I'm missing something. On occasion it's been pointed out I'm using logical fallacy as an argument but it's not often. What is not there in a text is as important as what is there, and what is missing compels the reader to question but not assume nor conclude. I believe I was pointing out that assumptions are made from the Jewish traditions surrounding the feast of trumpets when the passage concerning the command of God says no such thing. There is no first or last trump in Lev 23:23-25 and since the text is silent we cannot conclude there is proof of a last trump, or how many, being referred to here; even as for obvious reasons there would at some point be a last trumpet sound on the this day, whether one or many. There is only one series of trumps where there is clearly a last one in the whole of scripture and those are the 7 trumps of Revelation. If you could, please give an example of my argument from silence. Hi Diaste Indeed the argument from silence when carefully appropriated can have very valuable usefulness. Even Paul did so. I also agree with you on the 7th trumpet in Revelation. We just aren't told other details about it. I do have a theory about the timing if you would like, but I claim no knowledge of day/hour. I thinkthis is where I got the argument from silence......"I agree. However, Paul says 'last trump'. Only one last trump I know of and that's the 7th trump of Revelation. Paul had insight to the future as Isaiah does not mention a 'last trump' but a 'great trumpet'." If you say this merely a contrast, that's fine. One cannot always discern immediately another's intention. Edited May 6, 2019 by Uriah further info Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uriah Posted May 6, 2019 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 11 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,364 Content Per Day: 0.59 Reputation: 277 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/03/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted May 6, 2019 8 hours ago, Da Puppers said: You are totally missing my point. Joel said that the day of the Lord will be the worst of all days, before and after: *[[Joe 2:2]] KJV* A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations. The truth of the matter is that I said that the day that no man knows refers to the severity of that day of his wrath, and is not referring to the timing element of His coming. I said nothing of him NOT coming on that day. That is irrelevant to what "no man knows the day " means. The truth of the matter also, is that he will come on that day, but it is only the beginning of the "time, times, and the dividing of time" [found in Daniel 7:25] that the saints will be given into the hand of the 4th beast from the earth. This gathering of the elect is told and portrayed in Rev 14. There Jesus is first seen on mount Zion with the 144,000, then he is seen in the cloud gathering the grapes with his sickle. Be Blessed, The PuP Hell again Da Puppers Yeah, misunderstandings happen. Especially on complex issues of scripture. Thanks for clearing things up. Your response shows also a scenario where it looks like a mid trib,or pre trib interpretation if I am getting it right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uriah Posted May 6, 2019 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 11 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,364 Content Per Day: 0.59 Reputation: 277 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/03/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted May 6, 2019 54 minutes ago, Da Puppers said: Jesus appears/ comes in the clouds with power & glory BEFORE (as one of the events detailed in the discourse) the kingdom comes at the 7th trumpet. This is when the rapture takes place. Neither of which would be pretrib. The error in understanding the end times is when we misconstrue the great tribulation as being the time of Jacob's trouble OR as being the wrath of God. I would recommend taking a closer lookat the book of Joel. The theme of that book is things that take place BEFORE the DOTL comes. You find a great parallel between Joel and the 7 trumpets. What didn't seem to add up was that if the DOTL (7th trumpet) is the worst day, how so? There is very little found in the book of revelation that tells us what happens on that day. Then I recalled the 7 thunders found in chapter 10. John said that those things were to be sealed up until the "days" of the 7th trumpet. Being that the 7th trumpet is when the day of his wrath comes, the severity of his wrath must be found in those 7 thunders. Verse list: Amo 5:18-20 KJV Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light. As if a man did flee from a lion, and a bear met him; or went into the house, and leaned his hand on the wall, and a serpent bit him. Shall not the day of the LORD be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it? Be Blessed, The PuP Hi PuP Man, I like this post. I have also considered the 7 thunders. I know the thunders are sealed up but I have thought along the same lines as you on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Light Posted May 6, 2019 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,078 Content Per Day: 1.12 Reputation: 201 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/17/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted May 6, 2019 (edited) 7 hours ago, Da Puppers said: Quote Jesus appears/ comes in the clouds with power & glory BEFORE (as one of the events detailed in the discourse) the kingdom comes at the 7th trumpet. This is when the rapture takes place. Neither of which would be pretrib. There is not a rapture at the 7th trumpet. We see that the pretribulation rapture has already occured in Revelation 5. This is before any seals are opened. We also see a rapture in Rev 6 (Matt 24 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. This is the pre wrath rapture of the 12 tribes. Quote The error in understanding the end times is when we misconstrue the great tribulation as being the time of Jacob's trouble OR as being the wrath of God. The tribulation begins with the opening of the 7 seals. The 1st six seals are the time of Jacobs trouble, which is the tribulation. The Church is already in heaven, pretrib. The wrath of God is times, time and half a time which begins with the opening of the seventh seal. The last is blown on the feast of trumpets. There is also a first trump blown on Pentecost and a great trump. Edited May 6, 2019 by The Light Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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