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Defense of the Post Trib Rapture


George

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On 11/16/2021 at 11:27 PM, MrBear said:

Great topic

I have been listening to both sides of the argument lately, despite the movies like “ left behind” I can honestly say the spirit is pushing me more toward the post trib stance

I know pre trib people say “ no mention of the church after Chp.6”

I myself go with scripture that we are grafted onto the vine with Isreal 

where pre trib says church=\= Isreal

its been a fascinating subject and one I’m not at all claiming to be experienced with, BUT I do look forward to more Bible study on this subject

Without inciting scriptural sword fighting I’m interested to see others stances

pre trib?

post trib?

pre Wrath?

I hate pain like the next person, but I can’t follow pre- trib , the spirit isn’t leading me in that direction 

SHALOM❤️

 

Blessings. I think it is great you are exploring. I have listened and watched almost 20 hours of the greatest debates on the subject. In fact, I often challenge myself in proving my own position against the best of other arguments. I have not found one honestly that contends with pretrib. I was pretrib....then midtrib...now pretrib again. But I was only midtrib like for a year out of 20. What I don't like about pretrib is sometimes it seems like they like to stretch things instead of honest study. But as I have done rigorous honest study, I do not see any of the other positions taking the proverbial football away from pretrib. 

Of all the passages, if Revelation is future and Rev 12 is future to John, how is it that Rev 12:5 is a sign of the past? A sign is pointing to the future. Theologians seem to look at that and assign a sign a new meaning. That sign is future to John. And that future sign indicates something in the future of the sign (for the sign is not the thing it points to). So, what is it pointing to? 

Blessings. 

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From Corrie Ten Boom:

 

“There are some among us teaching there will be no tribulation, that the Christians will be able to escape all this. These are the false teachers that Jesus was warning us to expect in the latter days. Most of them have little knowledge of what is already going on across the world. I have been in countries where the saints are already suffering terrible persecution . . . .

“In America, the churches sing, ‘Let the congregation escape tribulation,’ but in China and Africa the tribulation has already arrived. This last year alone more than two hundred thousand Christians were martyred in Africa. Now things like that never get into the newspapers because they cause bad political relations. But I know. I have been there. We need to think about that when we sit down in our nice houses with our nice clothes to eat our steak dinners. Many, many members of the Body of Christ are being tortured to death at this very moment, yet we continue right on as though we are all going to escape the tribulation”

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5 hours ago, AandW_Rootbeer said:

From Corrie Ten Boom:

 

“There are some among us teaching there will be no tribulation, that the Christians will be able to escape all this. These are the false teachers that Jesus was warning us to expect in the latter days. Most of them have little knowledge of what is already going on across the world. I have been in countries where the saints are already suffering terrible persecution . . . .

“In America, the churches sing, ‘Let the congregation escape tribulation,’ but in China and Africa the tribulation has already arrived. This last year alone more than two hundred thousand Christians were martyred in Africa. Now things like that never get into the newspapers because they cause bad political relations. But I know. I have been there. We need to think about that when we sit down in our nice houses with our nice clothes to eat our steak dinners. Many, many members of the Body of Christ are being tortured to death at this very moment, yet we continue right on as though we are all going to escape the tribulation”

Fox news put out a few years back that a last recent decade has seen 1 million Christians killed. And I think you make a great point that we should be mindful of this. I think those believing families during the Crusades and Inquisitions might see your well made point as well. But our smug virtue cuts both ways unfortunately. 

What is stronger than your or my opinion is the revealing of scripture giving Israel her 70th week. That is between them and God. Its his 70th week, not yours to decide what its suppose to mean and how to look down on others. I get frustrated with all the Christians so fascinated with the NWO and the Wizard of Oz power given to Satan to be sovereign over the world as we fall into the tribulation. But that's a different story...lol. 

It boils down to what scripture means. Not competing our piety with climate change virtuosos. Would we say that Christ was wrong by the same measure in giving the same wage for a worker who worked all day and one who worked for one hour? I agree the USA has not had recent doses of healthy hard times to reflect and come down off the selfie bandwagon. But I don't automatically think that means I am more caring and thoughtful for not being pretrib. Especially if pretrib is His prophecy...and that's how it goes down. Would you want to meet Him with that chip on your shoulder? It sounds like a issue to take to prayer though friend. 

I understand underneath it all there is a heart expressed beyond Corrie or you in you with benevolent intention before God. But His prophecy has the last word, right? 

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Hi...I'm Gary  - I was going to read all the previous posts on this subject but then I realized there were over 100 pages, so what I would like to say might have already been said at some point.

Although we don't know the day nor the hour there is a sequence of events, in the sense that one thing has to happen before another thing happens.

So when it says in 1 Thess. 4:16 that '....For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout...and with the trump of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first:  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds...." 

So looking closely at this we can see that there is an event that must happen before we are caught up or raptured. So it would be wrong to say 'the rapture can happen at any time, there is nothing that has to happen first." because clearly the dead in Christ must rise first before the living are caught up. 

So what does it mean that the dead in Christ must rise first? For them to rise, or be 'caught up' first, what does that mean? It means before they can rise or be raptured, there must be a resurrection from the dead.

So the living saints of course will not need to be resurrected before they rise, because they are still alive, but for the dead in Christ to rise, they must first be physically resurrected. 

Paul says '...we shall not all sleep, (die) but we shall all (both dead and living) be changed, in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye, at the Last Trump.

There are five things to note in the mystery Paul was revealing to us. 

1) We shall not  all sleep (There will be some believers that will be alive when this happens)

2) We shall all be changed (All the dead believers and the living believers will be changed)

3) In a moment (All believers, dead and alive will be changed (get glorified bodies) at the same time, in a moment)

4) In the twinkling of an eye (Making it clear that the time involved for all believers to receive their glorified bodies does not happen over an extended period of time, but in the twinkling of an eye) 

5) At the last trump (making it known these events will not take place until the last trumpet sounds)

Seeing the resurrection of the dead in Christ must take place before the rapture, we know there can be no rapture before the resurrection. Its not that we know the day nor the hour, but we know that one specific event (the resurrection) must take place before the rapture (catching away) can occur.

So when does the scripture say the believers will be resurrected? Lets look at 4 verses in John 6 to see not only when this resurrection will happen, but who will be included in this resurrection.

John 6:39 -"And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day." 

1) John 6:40 "And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him may have everlasting life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 

2) John 6:44 -"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him; and I will raise him up at the last day."

3) John 6:54 -"Whoso eats my flesh and drinks my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day."

The first reference says that all whom God has given to Christ he will raise them up (or resurrect) them at the last day.

So lets look seriously at the first reference....it says ALL those who God has given to Christ will be raised at the last day. Remember Paul used the same words when he said we shall ALL be changed in a moment. So ALL does not mean PART of the believers will be resurrected at one time and then the other PART resurrected at the last day, it means ALL those who God gave to Christ will be resurrected in a moment, in a twinkle of an eye, at the last trump.

 

So lets compare this to the Pre Trib doctrine that only PART of the believers will be resurrected before the tribulation and the other PART of the believers will be resurrected at the last day. Does this correlate according what both Paul and Jesus have said? No, it does not. They both said ALL believers would be resurrected at one time.

Pre-trib doctrine asserts that the phrase 'the dead in Christ' only refers to the believers from the time of Pentecost until the pre trib rapture, but does agree with what Jesus said in the first reference? No. The phrase 'All those who God has given me,' would not mean 'the believers that had died from Pentecost to the alleged pre trib rapture.' That would be a PART of those who God had given to Christ, but it would not be ALL those who God had given to Christ.

How many believers has God given to Christ?

John 17:9-10 "...I pray for them; I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. And all mine are thine, and thine are mine..."

Here Jesus is saying that all those that belong to God are his. In other words, Jesus is saying he will resurrect all God's people on the last day, for these are the one's he said that God gave to him. Do God's people consist of just those who have lived from Pentecost to the alleged pre trib rapture? No, of course not. God's people have existed from the time of Adam and will continue to the end of this age. 

Lets look even further to see if the phrase 'the dead in Christ' only pertains to believers from Pentecost to the alleged pre trib rapture. Even saints who die in the tribulation are said to 'die in the Lord'

Rev. 14:12-13 "...Here is the patience of the saints...Blessed are the dead which 'die in the Lord from henceforth..." It is apparent that dying in the Lord is the same as dying in Christ, for Jesus is the Lord.

But lets look at some other scriptures to confirm what is being said. Who did Jesus say would be resurrected in John 5:28-29?

'...the hour is coming in which ALL that are in the graves shall hear his voice and come forth; they THAT HAVE DONE GOOD, unto the resurrection of life..."

Did he say the hour was coming in which those who have died from Pentecost unto the alleged pre trib rapture would be resurrected? No, again he said ALL those in the graves would be resurrected and he identified them as 'those who have done good..' Are the only saints who have done good the ones who died from Pentecost unto the alleged pre-trib rapture? No, of course not...all his saints are 'those who have done good, not just certain ones.

Lets look at some other scriptures  of what happens at the 7th trumpet in Rev. 11:18

"The nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great..." 

So first look that the seventh trumpet is called the time of the dead that they should be judged. The words 'the time of the dead,' means the time when all the dead will be resurrected. The words 'the dead' does not just mean the righteous dead, as anyone can see there are dead people who were good and there are dead people who were wicked. This is the same resurrection Jesus was talking about in John 5:28-29...this is the time when ALL those who are the graves shall hear his voice and come forth...in other words, the time of the dead mentioned here is the resurrection of all the dead, both good and bad, and is also the time they will be judged as it says, the time of the dead that they should be judged.

But in the pre trib doctrine the saints have already been resurrected, judged and rewarded. This is not true, as the scripture here states that it is at the seventh trumpet that all the saints will be rewarded as stated here:

Rev. 11:18 "....and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great..."

So this is a completely different scenario than the pre-trib allegations. Here it states there is one resurrection at the seventh trumpet in which God would give reward unto:

1) His servants the prophets

2) And to the saints

3) To them that fear his name, small and great

Here we see the time frame for this resurrection to be at the seventh trumpet and we also see that this is not specific to a certain grouping of saints, but one that would include all the saints who were in the graves whether they were small or great, plus it includes the prophets which means it is not even restricted to New Testament saints, but from the time of Adam down to when this seventh trumpet sounds which is at the Second Coming, at the end of this age.

There are more scriptures that confirm this:

In Matthew 13 Jesus gives us the parable of the wheat and the tares. He says let both the wheat and the tares grow together until the harvest...He does not say 'let the tares grow until the end of the age but let the wheat be caught away before the end of the age. No, he says let them both grow together UNTIL THE HARVEST.   Matthew 13:37-43 he gives the interpretation of it so we don't have to speculate as to what it means. He explains it here:

1) He that sowed the good seed is the Son of man

2) The field is the world

3) The good seed are the children of the kingdom 

4) The tares are the children of the wicked one

5) The enemy that sowed the tares is the devil

6) The harvest is the end of the world (age)

So lets see how Jesus said this would play out in verse 40:

"As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so shall it be in the end of THIS WORLD.' (AGE) The word 'world' is better translated 'age' in that the world is not destroyed at the second coming. But notice that he specifically says the tares will be gathered and burned in the fire, not at the end of the NEXT AGE, which would be at the end of the  1000 year reign, but at the end of THIS AGE, which would be at the Second Coming. But also note that this is the same time the wheat is gathered into the barn as it says in verse 43 "THEN (at the same time) shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their father..."

So again we have a completely different scenario being depicted than that which is shown in the Pre trib doctrine.

We have here the wicked and the righteous being rewarded at the same time AT THE END OF THE AGE, whereas the pre-trib doctrine states that some saints have been rewarded BEFORE the end of the age, and no wicked are punished until the end of the NEXT AGE...which would be the end of the 1000 years.

So lets look at another scripture in Matt. 13:47

"Again the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered  of every kind; Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away. So shall it be at the end of the world, the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked form among the just and shall cast them into the furnace of fire; there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

Here again we have a scenario that is going to take place at the end of the age...not at the end of the next age. The distinction between 'this age' and 'the age which is to come' is shown when Jesus said they 'have no forgiveness in this age nor that which is  to come...' meaning they will have no forgiveness at the Second Coming or at the White Throne judgment at the end of the 1000 years. But continuing on here notice what happens:

1) The net is let down one time and one time only

2) It is not drawn to shore until is is full of good and bad fish

3) When it was drawn to shore the good were separated from the bad

So consider:

1) The pre-trib doctrine has a net that is let down one time before the tribulation to pick up PART of the good fish, i.e. only those who have lived and died from Pentecost until the alleged pre trib rapture.

2)Then at the end of the tribulation the net is let down again to gather up another PART of the good fish which allegedly consists of the Old Testament saints.

3)They have no net let down for any bad fish until the end of the age to come, which is at the end of the 1000 years.

There is hardly any resemblance of what Jesus said as compared to what the Pre trib doctrine puts forth.

Jesus said the net was let down only one time...pre-trib says the net was let down 3 times.  Jesus said this net was let down once at the end of the age...pre trib has a net before the end of the age, another one at the end of the age, and another one at the end of the 1000 years. Pre trib has no separation of the good and bad fish at the end of this age, for they believe no wicked will be resurrected until the end of the 1000 years. 

  There are many other scriptures to look at, but this post is probably too long already....Bless you all- Gary 

 

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On 12/24/2021 at 8:41 PM, transmogrified said:

Hi...I'm Gary  - I was going to read all the previous posts on this subject but then I realized there were over 100 pages, so what I would like to say might have already been said at some point.

Although we don't know the day nor the hour there is a sequence of events, in the sense that one thing has to happen before another thing happens.

So when it says in 1 Thess. 4:16 that '....For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout...and with the trump of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first:  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds...." 

So looking closely at this we can see that there is an event that must happen before we are caught up or raptured. So it would be wrong to say 'the rapture can happen at any time, there is nothing that has to happen first." because clearly the dead in Christ must rise first before the living are caught up. 

So what does it mean that the dead in Christ must rise first? For them to rise, or be 'caught up' first, what does that mean? It means before they can rise or be raptured, there must be a resurrection from the dead.

So the living saints of course will not need to be resurrected before they rise, because they are still alive, but for the dead in Christ to rise, they must first be physically resurrected. 

Paul says '...we shall not all sleep, (die) but we shall all (both dead and living) be changed, in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye, at the Last Trump.

There are five things to note in the mystery Paul was revealing to us. 

1) We shall not  all sleep (There will be some believers that will be alive when this happens)

2) We shall all be changed (All the dead believers and the living believers will be changed)

3) In a moment (All believers, dead and alive will be changed (get glorified bodies) at the same time, in a moment)

4) In the twinkling of an eye (Making it clear that the time involved for all believers to receive their glorified bodies does not happen over an extended period of time, but in the twinkling of an eye) 

5) At the last trump (making it known these events will not take place until the last trumpet sounds)

Seeing the resurrection of the dead in Christ must take place before the rapture, we know there can be no rapture before the resurrection. Its not that we know the day nor the hour, but we know that one specific event (the resurrection) must take place before the rapture (catching away) can occur.

So when does the scripture say the believers will be resurrected? Lets look at 4 verses in John 6 to see not only when this resurrection will happen, but who will be included in this resurrection.

John 6:39 -"And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day." 

1) John 6:40 "And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him may have everlasting life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 

2) John 6:44 -"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him; and I will raise him up at the last day."

3) John 6:54 -"Whoso eats my flesh and drinks my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day."

The first reference says that all whom God has given to Christ he will raise them up (or resurrect) them at the last day.

So lets look seriously at the first reference....it says ALL those who God has given to Christ will be raised at the last day. Remember Paul used the same words when he said we shall ALL be changed in a moment. So ALL does not mean PART of the believers will be resurrected at one time and then the other PART resurrected at the last day, it means ALL those who God gave to Christ will be resurrected in a moment, in a twinkle of an eye, at the last trump.

 

So lets compare this to the Pre Trib doctrine that only PART of the believers will be resurrected before the tribulation and the other PART of the believers will be resurrected at the last day. Does this correlate according what both Paul and Jesus have said? No, it does not. They both said ALL believers would be resurrected at one time.

Pre-trib doctrine asserts that the phrase 'the dead in Christ' only refers to the believers from the time of Pentecost until the pre trib rapture, but does agree with what Jesus said in the first reference? No. The phrase 'All those who God has given me,' would not mean 'the believers that had died from Pentecost to the alleged pre trib rapture.' That would be a PART of those who God had given to Christ, but it would not be ALL those who God had given to Christ.

How many believers has God given to Christ?

John 17:9-10 "...I pray for them; I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. And all mine are thine, and thine are mine..."

Here Jesus is saying that all those that belong to God are his. In other words, Jesus is saying he will resurrect all God's people on the last day, for these are the one's he said that God gave to him. Do God's people consist of just those who have lived from Pentecost to the alleged pre trib rapture? No, of course not. God's people have existed from the time of Adam and will continue to the end of this age. 

Lets look even further to see if the phrase 'the dead in Christ' only pertains to believers from Pentecost to the alleged pre trib rapture. Even saints who die in the tribulation are said to 'die in the Lord'

Rev. 14:12-13 "...Here is the patience of the saints...Blessed are the dead which 'die in the Lord from henceforth..." It is apparent that dying in the Lord is the same as dying in Christ, for Jesus is the Lord.

But lets look at some other scriptures to confirm what is being said. Who did Jesus say would be resurrected in John 5:28-29?

'...the hour is coming in which ALL that are in the graves shall hear his voice and come forth; they THAT HAVE DONE GOOD, unto the resurrection of life..."

Did he say the hour was coming in which those who have died from Pentecost unto the alleged pre trib rapture would be resurrected? No, again he said ALL those in the graves would be resurrected and he identified them as 'those who have done good..' Are the only saints who have done good the ones who died from Pentecost unto the alleged pre-trib rapture? No, of course not...all his saints are 'those who have done good, not just certain ones.

Lets look at some other scriptures  of what happens at the 7th trumpet in Rev. 11:18

"The nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great..." 

So first look that the seventh trumpet is called the time of the dead that they should be judged. The words 'the time of the dead,' means the time when all the dead will be resurrected. The words 'the dead' does not just mean the righteous dead, as anyone can see there are dead people who were good and there are dead people who were wicked. This is the same resurrection Jesus was talking about in John 5:28-29...this is the time when ALL those who are the graves shall hear his voice and come forth...in other words, the time of the dead mentioned here is the resurrection of all the dead, both good and bad, and is also the time they will be judged as it says, the time of the dead that they should be judged.

But in the pre trib doctrine the saints have already been resurrected, judged and rewarded. This is not true, as the scripture here states that it is at the seventh trumpet that all the saints will be rewarded as stated here:

Rev. 11:18 "....and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great..."

So this is a completely different scenario than the pre-trib allegations. Here it states there is one resurrection at the seventh trumpet in which God would give reward unto:

1) His servants the prophets

2) And to the saints

3) To them that fear his name, small and great

Here we see the time frame for this resurrection to be at the seventh trumpet and we also see that this is not specific to a certain grouping of saints, but one that would include all the saints who were in the graves whether they were small or great, plus it includes the prophets which means it is not even restricted to New Testament saints, but from the time of Adam down to when this seventh trumpet sounds which is at the Second Coming, at the end of this age.

There are more scriptures that confirm this:

In Matthew 13 Jesus gives us the parable of the wheat and the tares. He says let both the wheat and the tares grow together until the harvest...He does not say 'let the tares grow until the end of the age but let the wheat be caught away before the end of the age. No, he says let them both grow together UNTIL THE HARVEST.   Matthew 13:37-43 he gives the interpretation of it so we don't have to speculate as to what it means. He explains it here:

1) He that sowed the good seed is the Son of man

2) The field is the world

3) The good seed are the children of the kingdom 

4) The tares are the children of the wicked one

5) The enemy that sowed the tares is the devil

6) The harvest is the end of the world (age)

So lets see how Jesus said this would play out in verse 40:

"As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so shall it be in the end of THIS WORLD.' (AGE) The word 'world' is better translated 'age' in that the world is not destroyed at the second coming. But notice that he specifically says the tares will be gathered and burned in the fire, not at the end of the NEXT AGE, which would be at the end of the  1000 year reign, but at the end of THIS AGE, which would be at the Second Coming. But also note that this is the same time the wheat is gathered into the barn as it says in verse 43 "THEN (at the same time) shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their father..."

So again we have a completely different scenario being depicted than that which is shown in the Pre trib doctrine.

We have here the wicked and the righteous being rewarded at the same time AT THE END OF THE AGE, whereas the pre-trib doctrine states that some saints have been rewarded BEFORE the end of the age, and no wicked are punished until the end of the NEXT AGE...which would be the end of the 1000 years.

So lets look at another scripture in Matt. 13:47

"Again the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered  of every kind; Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away. So shall it be at the end of the world, the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked form among the just and shall cast them into the furnace of fire; there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

Here again we have a scenario that is going to take place at the end of the age...not at the end of the next age. The distinction between 'this age' and 'the age which is to come' is shown when Jesus said they 'have no forgiveness in this age nor that which is  to come...' meaning they will have no forgiveness at the Second Coming or at the White Throne judgment at the end of the 1000 years. But continuing on here notice what happens:

1) The net is let down one time and one time only

2) It is not drawn to shore until is is full of good and bad fish

3) When it was drawn to shore the good were separated from the bad

So consider:

1) The pre-trib doctrine has a net that is let down one time before the tribulation to pick up PART of the good fish, i.e. only those who have lived and died from Pentecost until the alleged pre trib rapture.

2)Then at the end of the tribulation the net is let down again to gather up another PART of the good fish which allegedly consists of the Old Testament saints.

3)They have no net let down for any bad fish until the end of the age to come, which is at the end of the 1000 years.

There is hardly any resemblance of what Jesus said as compared to what the Pre trib doctrine puts forth.

Jesus said the net was let down only one time...pre-trib says the net was let down 3 times.  Jesus said this net was let down once at the end of the age...pre trib has a net before the end of the age, another one at the end of the age, and another one at the end of the 1000 years. Pre trib has no separation of the good and bad fish at the end of this age, for they believe no wicked will be resurrected until the end of the 1000 years. 

  There are many other scriptures to look at, but this post is probably too long already....Bless you all- Gary 

 

Good points.

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On 4/24/2022 at 4:50 AM, Diaste said:

Good points.

Hello Diaste-

 The issue with the pre trib position is not only that they have a resurrection prior to the last day, it is also an error to think the wicked dead are not resurrected until the end of the 1000 years...the resurrection of both the good and the bad at the Second Coming was pretty much disanulled when Pre trib became predominant...

Amillenials are basically the only ones who ascribe to the resurrection of both good and bad on the last day, but then they don't believe in a literal 1000 years so it seems most think there are only two choices...believe in a general resurrection on the last day and set aside the 1000 years or have only the righteous resurrected before the 1000 years and the wicked at the end of the 1000 years. But there is a solution so both wicked and righteous are resurrected at the Second coming and still have another resurrection of both groups at the end of the 1000 years...

Blessings to you- Gary

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19 hours ago, transmogrified said:

The issue with the pre trib position is not only that they have a resurrection prior to the last day, it is also an error to think the wicked dead are not resurrected until the end of the 1000 years

Could you expand on this? I understand what you're saying, I'm wondering how you got there. Never heard this before.

Thank You.

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3 hours ago, Diaste said:

Could you expand on this? I understand what you're saying, I'm wondering how you got there. Never heard this before.

What the issue comes down to is the supposed contradiction between the resurrection in Daniel 12 and the statement in Revelation where it says 'The rest of the dead did lived not again until the 1000 years were finished...'

The resurrection in Daniel 12 starts out by saying 'At that time...' these things will happen:

1) Michael stands up

2) There will be time of trouble

3) Thy people shall be delivered

4) Many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake..some to life and some to condemnation..

So the key phrase is 'At that time,' such and such will happen. So we ask ourselves, what time is he talking about?

The context is that the man of sin comes to his end and none will help him, then it says 'At that time' such and such will happen.

What pre trib has typically done is to falsely insert a 1000 years gap between the righteous being resurrected and the wicked. So instead of believing both the good and the bad will be resurrected 'at that time,' it is put forth that only the righteous will be resurrected 'at that time' and the wicked dead will be resurrected 'at another time, 1000 years later.'

After these things were shown to Daniel by the angel he asks in Daniel 12:6 "How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?'

So notice he does not ask 'How long shall it be to the end of all these wonders, except for the resurrection of the wicked.' He asks how long it will be to the end of these wonders...i.e. the wonders that the angel had just shown him, which included both the righteous and the wicked being resurrected.

He is told that 

'...it shall be for a time, times and a half, and when he (anti Christ) shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, ALL THESE THINGS SHALL BE FINISHED.'

So he is saying by the end of the reign of the 3.5 years of the beast, everything he just mentioned would be finished. He didn't say at the end of the 3.5 years of the reign of the beast everything would be finished except the resurrection of the wicked, but rather that the resurrection of both the good and the bad would be finished by the end of the 3.5 years.

So the question goes back to what is meant by the phrase 'But the rest of the dead lived not again until the 1000 years were finished.' 

Jesus told Caiphas that he would see him coming in the clouds of heaven..Caiphas was a wicked man and yet Jesus said he would see him coming..Jesus does not come at the end of the 1000 years...he will reign here on the earth during the whole 1000 years. Caiphas will have to be resurrected to see Jesus come in the clouds of heaven...but according to pre trib..there are no wicked dead resurrected until the end of the 1000 years. 

Revelation says 'He comes with clouds, and every eye shall see him, even those who pierced him..' Those that pierced him were wicked men, yet it says they will see him when he comes in the clouds. Caiphas was not in the righteous group or he would have been coming with Jesus in the clouds with all the other saints, but Jesus said he would see him coming, not that he would be coming with him...

Looking at the timeline Caiphas is resurrected and is seeing Jesus coming in the clouds. What does this mean? It means the resurrection of both the wicked and the righteous has taken place. What else does this mean? It means the resurrected saints are coming down with Jesus to Armageddon to destroy the armies of the beast and there will be a massive slaughter so that the birds of the air come and eat the flesh of captains and mighty men and the blood flows to the horses bridles...' 

What does this mean? It means ON THAT DAY that Jesus comes both the wicked and the righteous dead will be resurrected BEFORE Armageddon takes place...how do we know that? Caiphas sees Jesus coming in the clouds...Armageddon has not yet taken place but both wicked and righteous have been resurrected. So what happens to those wicked men who are slain at Armageddon? They are not resurrected until the 1000 years are finished because they were killed AFTER the resurrection of the wicked had already happened. These are the rest of the dead, who died on that day, but were not resurrected until the thousand years was finished. 

This is fulfilling Isaiah 24:21-22

"And it shall come to pass in that day (Armageddon) the Lord shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth..(The ten kings and the beast) 

"And they shall be gathered together as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison...(those killed at Armageddon are now in hell, or the bottomless pit), and after many days (1000 years) they shall be visited (resurrected...death and hell gave up the dead that were in them at the Great White Throne judgment at the end of the 1000 years)

The picture is that all from Adam, both good and bad are resurrected at the Second Coming and judged and rewarded...this is in accordance with the wheat and the tares, the good and bad fish, and the sheep and the goats... Remember, both the sheep and the goats are judged WHEN Jesus comes and sits on the throne of his glory ON THE EARTH.

He does not judge the sheep when he comes, and the judge the goats 1000 years later...No...both are the sheep and the goats are before him at the same time...the sheep enter into life, the goats into everlasting fire.

This is also in accord with the good and the bad fish analogy...The net is lowered one time only and it is only drawn to shore when it is full of both good and bad fish..notice the discrepancy between pre trib and what Jesus said...Pre trib lowers the net one time and gets some of the good fish ( allegedly saints from Pentecost to the pre trib rapture), then lowers it again after the tribulation to resurrect the Old Testament saints, the tribulation saints, and the 2 witnesses...then lowers it again at the end of the 1000 years to resurrect the bad fish...No. The net is lowered one time and all the dead, both good and bad are resurrected and judged at the second coming...the next resurrection at the end of the 1000 years also includes both good and bad, but only pertains to those who lived and died during the 1000 years.

The confusion sometimes happens because of misunderstanding what Jesus said when he said he will judge 'the quick and the dead at his appearing and kingdom...'

Both the quick (the living) and the dead will be judged at the second coming, but the judgment of the living is not the same as the judgment of the dead...both good and bad are resurrected and judged and rewarded at the second coming...there is no opportunity for the wicked to repent in this judgment...the goats, the bad fish, the tares are all cast into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels...there is no more resurrection for them...they have gone to their eternal judgment.

But the living do have an opportunity to repent at the Second Coming, and this is where many seem to think Jesus comes and kills everyone at the second coming, but this is not the case.

The existing kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of our Lord and of his Christ...he rebukes them at his coming and they repent as it is shown:

Is. 2:4 "And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hook; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more..."

But back to the resurrection, it says the hour comes when ALL that are in the graves shall hear his voice and come forth...this is both the wicked and the just being resurrected at the second coming...the just do not hear his voice at one time, and then the wicked hear his voice 1000 years later...no...both happens at the second coming.

We also see in Rev. 11:18 that at the 7th trumpet it is called 'the time of the dead, that they should be judged..' it does not say, it the time 'for the righteous dead, that they should be judged, nor does it say it is the time of the wicked dead that they should be judged...no, it says it the time of THE DEAD that THEY should be judged...it is obvious there are both wicked and righteous people who are dead...

There are many other scriptures to go into, but this is already probably too long...so we can talk more about this...

Blessings to you- Gary  

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19 hours ago, transmogrified said:

What the issue comes down to is the supposed contradiction between the resurrection in Daniel 12 and the statement in Revelation where it says 'The rest of the dead did lived not again until the 1000 years were finished...'

The resurrection in Daniel 12 starts out by saying 'At that time...' these things will happen:

1) Michael stands up

2) There will be time of trouble

3) Thy people shall be delivered

4) Many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake..some to life and some to condemnation..

So the key phrase is 'At that time,' such and such will happen. So we ask ourselves, what time is he talking about?

The context is that the man of sin comes to his end and none will help him, then it says 'At that time' such and such will happen.

What pre trib has typically done is to falsely insert a 1000 years gap between the righteous being resurrected and the wicked. So instead of believing both the good and the bad will be resurrected 'at that time,' it is put forth that only the righteous will be resurrected 'at that time' and the wicked dead will be resurrected 'at another time, 1000 years later.'

After these things were shown to Daniel by the angel he asks in Daniel 12:6 "How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?'

So notice he does not ask 'How long shall it be to the end of all these wonders, except for the resurrection of the wicked.' He asks how long it will be to the end of these wonders...i.e. the wonders that the angel had just shown him, which included both the righteous and the wicked being resurrected.

He is told that 

'...it shall be for a time, times and a half, and when he (anti Christ) shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, ALL THESE THINGS SHALL BE FINISHED.'

So he is saying by the end of the reign of the 3.5 years of the beast, everything he just mentioned would be finished. He didn't say at the end of the 3.5 years of the reign of the beast everything would be finished except the resurrection of the wicked, but rather that the resurrection of both the good and the bad would be finished by the end of the 3.5 years.

So the question goes back to what is meant by the phrase 'But the rest of the dead lived not again until the 1000 years were finished.' 

Jesus told Caiphas that he would see him coming in the clouds of heaven..Caiphas was a wicked man and yet Jesus said he would see him coming..Jesus does not come at the end of the 1000 years...he will reign here on the earth during the whole 1000 years. Caiphas will have to be resurrected to see Jesus come in the clouds of heaven...but according to pre trib..there are no wicked dead resurrected until the end of the 1000 years. 

Revelation says 'He comes with clouds, and every eye shall see him, even those who pierced him..' Those that pierced him were wicked men, yet it says they will see him when he comes in the clouds. Caiphas was not in the righteous group or he would have been coming with Jesus in the clouds with all the other saints, but Jesus said he would see him coming, not that he would be coming with him...

Looking at the timeline Caiphas is resurrected and is seeing Jesus coming in the clouds. What does this mean? It means the resurrection of both the wicked and the righteous has taken place. What else does this mean? It means the resurrected saints are coming down with Jesus to Armageddon to destroy the armies of the beast and there will be a massive slaughter so that the birds of the air come and eat the flesh of captains and mighty men and the blood flows to the horses bridles...' 

What does this mean? It means ON THAT DAY that Jesus comes both the wicked and the righteous dead will be resurrected BEFORE Armageddon takes place...how do we know that? Caiphas sees Jesus coming in the clouds...Armageddon has not yet taken place but both wicked and righteous have been resurrected. So what happens to those wicked men who are slain at Armageddon? They are not resurrected until the 1000 years are finished because they were killed AFTER the resurrection of the wicked had already happened. These are the rest of the dead, who died on that day, but were not resurrected until the thousand years was finished. 

This is fulfilling Isaiah 24:21-22

"And it shall come to pass in that day (Armageddon) the Lord shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth..(The ten kings and the beast) 

"And they shall be gathered together as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison...(those killed at Armageddon are now in hell, or the bottomless pit), and after many days (1000 years) they shall be visited (resurrected...death and hell gave up the dead that were in them at the Great White Throne judgment at the end of the 1000 years)

The picture is that all from Adam, both good and bad are resurrected at the Second Coming and judged and rewarded...this is in accordance with the wheat and the tares, the good and bad fish, and the sheep and the goats... Remember, both the sheep and the goats are judged WHEN Jesus comes and sits on the throne of his glory ON THE EARTH.

He does not judge the sheep when he comes, and the judge the goats 1000 years later...No...both are the sheep and the goats are before him at the same time...the sheep enter into life, the goats into everlasting fire.

This is also in accord with the good and the bad fish analogy...The net is lowered one time only and it is only drawn to shore when it is full of both good and bad fish..notice the discrepancy between pre trib and what Jesus said...Pre trib lowers the net one time and gets some of the good fish ( allegedly saints from Pentecost to the pre trib rapture), then lowers it again after the tribulation to resurrect the Old Testament saints, the tribulation saints, and the 2 witnesses...then lowers it again at the end of the 1000 years to resurrect the bad fish...No. The net is lowered one time and all the dead, both good and bad are resurrected and judged at the second coming...the next resurrection at the end of the 1000 years also includes both good and bad, but only pertains to those who lived and died during the 1000 years.

The confusion sometimes happens because of misunderstanding what Jesus said when he said he will judge 'the quick and the dead at his appearing and kingdom...'

Both the quick (the living) and the dead will be judged at the second coming, but the judgment of the living is not the same as the judgment of the dead...both good and bad are resurrected and judged and rewarded at the second coming...there is no opportunity for the wicked to repent in this judgment...the goats, the bad fish, the tares are all cast into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels...there is no more resurrection for them...they have gone to their eternal judgment.

But the living do have an opportunity to repent at the Second Coming, and this is where many seem to think Jesus comes and kills everyone at the second coming, but this is not the case.

The existing kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of our Lord and of his Christ...he rebukes them at his coming and they repent as it is shown:

Is. 2:4 "And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hook; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more..."

But back to the resurrection, it says the hour comes when ALL that are in the graves shall hear his voice and come forth...this is both the wicked and the just being resurrected at the second coming...the just do not hear his voice at one time, and then the wicked hear his voice 1000 years later...no...both happens at the second coming.

We also see in Rev. 11:18 that at the 7th trumpet it is called 'the time of the dead, that they should be judged..' it does not say, it the time 'for the righteous dead, that they should be judged, nor does it say it is the time of the wicked dead that they should be judged...no, it says it the time of THE DEAD that THEY should be judged...it is obvious there are both wicked and righteous people who are dead...

There are many other scriptures to go into, but this is already probably too long...so we can talk more about this...

Blessings to you- Gary  

Interesting. I'll have to grapple with this a day or two. 

And thank you for taking the time to show the logical progression. :)

 

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4 hours ago, Diaste said:

Interesting. I'll have to grapple with this a day or two. 

And thank you for taking the time to show the logical progression. :)

There are many other scriptures to look at on this subject...the wheat and the tares explicitly states let both grow together until the harvest...the harvest is the end of the age, and Jesus states this in Mathew 13 'so shall it be at the end of THIS AGE'...so he is not separating out the wheat and the tares into different time frames...as in the wheat will be harvested at the end of this age, but the tares will be harvested at the end of the next age which would be the end of the 1000 years...but it is even worse with pre trib because they break apart the harvest of the wheat into different time frames...some of the wheat gets harvested before the end of the age at the pre trib resurrection / rapture...and then the rest of the wheat gets harvested at  the end of the age, or at the last day...

Rev. 11:18 specifically states at the 7th trumpet would be the time of the dead that they should be judged and also that he would reward his servants the prophets, the saints, and them that fear his name, both small and great...pre trib has the 'church age saints' resurrected, judged and rewarded before the tribulation.

Those who reject Jesus and do not receive his words, it says he will judge them at the last day...the same last day in which the righteous are resurrected and judged..

When he comes it says he will render to every man according as his deeds shall be...not that he will render to every righteous man...but he renders to every man, both good and bad, according to his deeds.

One other thing that sometimes gets confusing is that Daniel says 'many' that sleep will be raised...this is a word that has been translated 'multitudes' of them that sleep in some versions. But, depending on context, it can show the quantity of people who will be raised will be great, not that quite a few would be resurrected, but not all of them..

This is also used when it says 'Jesus will be bear the sins of many..' it does not mean he will bear the sins of quite a few of us, but he would not bear the sins of others...no...it means he will bear the sins of all of us, but the word 'many' is used to convey the thought that the quantity of people will be great. This is why I tend to like the word 'multitudes' of them that sleep in the earth will awake...not that the other word is wrong, but it kind of eliminates the confusion...sometimes people do not have an issue understanding how the word 'many' is used when Paul or Isaiah says 'he will bear the sins of many,' but not when it comes to Dan. 12.

 

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