Revelation Chapter 13 -

[BlindSeeker]

I see what you are saying - but . . .

Well, I guess part of my problem is that I see the re-establishment of Israel as a nation as a part of God's redemptive plan . . . the Valley of the dry bones . . . rather than as one of the Beasts.

I agree with your statement above, and I do not view Israel as "one of the beasts."

My statement was that the existence of the beast has a direct connection to Israel, who just like the beast "was,was not and yet is."

What made Babylon and subsequent empires different from Egypt et al in belonging to Nebuchandnezzer's statue were they were Gentile nations who included Israel in their empires. Thus it makes more sense that the feet of iron and clay - extending from the Roman Empire - are the two extensions of "the Holy Roman Empire." Both the European extension and Byzanthian extensions were "mixed" (mixed nations and peoples, but a collective unit of sorts under one religion . . . Byzanthium though got taken over by Islam). Both extension had their feet in "the Holy Land" and held power back and forth.

Now I can see the US as having strong influence over Israel, but it doesn't exactly contain Israel as within an empire . . . so I'm not sure it matches up.

I could be wrong, I know . . . after all I am not a prophet (I'm a firm believer in the prophets having the decoders to prophecy more so than anyone else).

But that's my line of thinking in this.

Since Israel's restoration, what other nation on earth has forced/compelled Israel to give up part of the inheritance God gave to her? And what other nation is in a power position with Israel to compel her further to allow the establishment of another enemy nation (Palestine) on her soil?

[BlindSeeker]

I would be inclined to reject any Empire not affiliated with Israel's past, present and future as being the seventh . . . since I believe Israel is a key to understanding the identity of all the "heads" or "kings," especially the seventh and the eighth.

Actually, Europe was heavily involved with the possession of the Promised Land (the time of the Crusades), as well as Muslims (though I don't know which nation of Muslims had the strongest hold on the Land). Britain just had it at the end.

Agreed Sister Nebula . . . but believe the Beast that "was, was not and yet is" is correlated with Israel which also "was, was not and yet is."

I believe the distinguishing of the heads must be discerned as existing during the establishment of Israel and not during her absence. That is why England is the 7th and not all of Europe or the Muslims.

OK show us some scripture to back that idea up because Isreal never was and is not today considered to be the beast by God. How can Isreal be the apple of God's eye and considered to be His people by God and be the beast at the same time. Your assumptions are just that. Assumptions. When you can,t show a historical Jewish connection between the heads if we were to run down your road.

Apparently you have no idea what I said. I never stated Israel was a beast or the beast.

You are wrong in your assumption.

[BlindSeeker]

I see what you are saying - but . . .

Well, I guess part of my problem is that I see the re-establihment of Israel as a nation as a part of God's redemptive plan . . . the Valley of the dry bones . . . rather than as one of the Beasts.

What made Babylon and subsequent empires different from Egypt et al in belonging to Nebuchandnezzer's statue were they were Gentile nations who included Israel in their empires. Thus it makes more sense that the feet of iron and clay - extending from the Roman Empire - are the two extensions of "the Holy Roman Empire." Both the European extension and Byzanthian extensions were "mixed" (mixed nations and peoples, but a collective unit of sorts under one religion . . . Byzanthium though got taken over by Islam). Both extension had their feet in "the Holy Land" and held power back and forth.

Now I can see the US as having strong influence over Israel, but it doesn't exactly contain Israel as within an empire . . . so I'm not sure it matches up.

I could be wrong, I know . . . after all I am not a prophet (I'm a firm believer in the prophets having the decoders to prophecy more so than anyone else).

But that's my line of thinking in this.

Neb - BlindSeeker is not saying that Israel is the beast. He explained it here.

Thanks Sister Trav

[nebula]

Neb - BlindSeeker is not saying that Israel is the beast. He explained it here.

Boy - this was all so long ago, I completely forgot the conversation!

. . . I do not view Israel as "one of the beasts."

My statement was that the existence of the beast has a direct connection to Israel, who just like the beast "was,was not and yet is."

I guess I'm just not getting the "direct connotation" thing.

Since Israel's restoration, what other nation on earth has forced/compelled Israel to give up part of the inheritance God gave to her? And what other nation is in a power position with Israel to compel her further to allow the establishment of another enemy nation (Palestine) on her soil?

I see what you are saying.

I'm just not figuring out how Nebuchaddnezzer's statue dream fit sin with this.

[BlindSeeker]

I read his explanation and it doesn't change hie position at all.

In Rev 17:8 the bible is talking about a beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit "that was and is not yet still is". Yet in his post 64 he says that the beast is corralated with Lsreal because Isreal was, was not, yet is. There is no corralation there. Isreal was never in the bottomless pit and Isreal has alway been Isreal in the eyes of God both the people and the land. There has never been a time when Isreal WAS NOT. They have always been a people and the name has always been Isreal.

First off, it is Israel and not Isreal

Second, after 70 a.d. the civil/governmental structure of the nation of Israel ceased to function and exist. After 70 a.d. and up till 1948 there would not have been a current map with Israel shown on it . . . it simply didn't exist.

Just because the Jews were dispersed, but still existed as an ethnic group does not mean that the civil/economical/religious aspect of Israel as a nation still existed and function in national affairs with other nations.

As long as he is using the words from Rev. 17:8 to connect Isreal to the beast and the discription of the beast in the book of Daniel he is saying or at the least leading everyone to think that he is connecting the beast to Isreal and it simply does not work. There are no simularities between Isreal and any beast of any kind spiritual or otherwise. Trickery I tell you Trickery. LOL

Similarities and correlation is not necessarily the same thing.

Still, God obviously saw

[BlindSeeker]

I'm just not figuring out how Nebuchaddnezzer's statue dream fit sin with this.

Nebuchadnezzar's dream was only up to Rome which would disperse Israel and cause the spread of the gospel/church throughout the world. It doesn't include Egypt or Assyria, nor does it go beyond Rome to the 7th and 8th empires of the beast.

[Massorite]

I would be inclined to reject any Empire not affiliated with Israel's past, present and future as being the seventh . . . since I believe Israel is a key to understanding the identity of all the "heads" or "kings," especially the seventh and the eighth.

Actually, Europe was heavily involved with the possession of the Promised Land (the time of the Crusades), as well as Muslims (though I don't know which nation of Muslims had the strongest hold on the Land). Britain just had it at the end.

Agreed Sister Nebula . . . but believe the Beast that "was, was not and yet is" is correlated with Israel which also "was, was not and yet is."

I believe the distinguishing of the heads must be discerned as existing during the establishment of Israel and not during her absence. That is why England is the 7th and not all of Europe or the Muslims.

OK show us some scripture to back that idea up because Israel never was and is not today considered to be the beast by God. How can Israel be the apple of God's eye and considered to be His people by God and be the beast at the same time. Your assumptions are just that. Assumptions. When you can,t show a historical Jewish connection between the heads if we were to run down your road.

Apparently you have no idea what I said. I never stated Israel was a beast or the beast.

You are wrong in your assumption.

You compared the beast of Daniel to Israel. You used I believe the word "correlation" which means "a mutual or complementary relationship between the two." and I see no relationship between the two at all in scripture. They are not in any way related in any shape or form biblically or otherwise.

The word "correlate" also means "to gather and compare related things" and there are no related characteristics between the Beast of Daniel and Israel. So where is my assumption? You used the word "correlation" I didn't.

[Celt]

Since Israel's restoration, what other nation on earth has forced/compelled Israel to give up part of the inheritance God gave to her? And what other nation is in a power position with Israel to compel her further to allow the establishment of another enemy nation (Palestine) on her soil?

Well, that's just it, the restoration of Israel per God's Word is yet to occur, because Jewish scholars well know today's nation state of Israel doesn't include the rest of the tribes The Bible mentions in Ezekiel 48...

"The people known as Jews are the descendants of the Tribes of Judah and Benjamin, with a certain number of the Tribe of Levi. So far as is known, there is not any further admixture of other tribes. The Ten Tribes have been absorbed among the nations of the world. The Jews look forward to the gathering of all the tribes at some future date." ---Dr. Hertz - Chief Rabbi of the British Empire. 1918

"While not a link is missing of the historical chain so far as the romance of the House of Judah is concerned, the Israelites who were subjected by the Assyrian power disappear from the page of history as suddenly and completely as though the land of their captivity had swallowed them up... the Ten Tribes are certainly in existence, all that has to be done is to discover which people represent them." ---The Jewish Chronicles, May 22, 1879.

Edited March 8, 2009 by Celt

[BlindSeeker]

Since Israel's restoration, what other nation on earth has forced/compelled Israel to give up part of the inheritance God gave to her? And what other nation is in a power position with Israel to compel her further to allow the establishment of another enemy nation (Palestine) on her soil?

Well, that's just it, the restoration of Israel per God's Word is yet to occur, because Jewish scholars well know today's nation state of Israel doesn't include the rest of the tribes The Bible mentions in Ezekiel 48...

"The people known as Jews are the descendants of the Tribes of Judah and Benjamin, with a certain number of the Tribe of Levi. So far as is known, there is not any further admixture of other tribes. The Ten Tribes have been absorbed among the nations of the world. The Jews look forward to the gathering of all the tribes at some future date." ---Dr. Hertz - Chief Rabbi of the British Empire. 1918

"While not a link is missing of the historical chain so far as the romance of the House of Judah is concerned, the Israelites who were subjected by the Assyrian power disappear from the page of history as suddenly and completely as though the land of their captivity had swallowed them up... the Ten Tribes are certainly in existence, all that has to be done is to discover which people represent them." ---The Jewish Chronicles, May 22, 1879.

[Celt]

I'm just not figuring out how Nebuchaddnezzer's statue dream fit sin with this.

Nebuchadnezzar's dream was only up to Rome which would disperse Israel and cause the spread of the gospel/church throughout the world. It doesn't include Egypt or Assyria, nor does it go beyond Rome to the 7th and 8th empires of the beast.

Not necessarily true, for this verse was included within Daniel's intepretation of Neb's dream...

Dan 2:44

44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

(KJV)

A final kingdom is mentioned there which God is to setup that will break all those others; it is His Kingdom, because it is to last "for ever". And it is to be setup in the days of those kings. That's about Rev.11:15, which is still future.

That puts that part of Neb's dream even into our future. Daniel is given another vision in Dan.7 about a fourth beast kingdom upon the earth, and specific events that carry over with God's Kingdom being setup for His saints is included in it also.

Dan 7:21-22

21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

(KJV)

Some think that fourth beast kingdom meant historical Rome (which I agree), but also at the very end its revival just prior to Christ's second coming (which I don't agree, at least not how some dwell on a repeat of a Roman empire like the one of history).

Many scholars consider the first beast to be Nebuchadnezzar's Babylon (the lion, and head of gold), the second beast the Medo-Persia empire (the bear, and breast and arms of silver), and the third beast Alexander's Greece (the leopard, and belly and thighs of brass), and the fourth the Roman empire (no animal symbol, only as the legs of iron). But there's some debate on that idea of the toes of iron and clay.

Daniel doesn't mention a fifth beast kingdom, but I believe it is inferred by the separation of his description between Dan.2:40 and 2:41. The description of the ten toes of iron mixed with clay would point to that.

Per Dan.2:34, 'a stone cut out without hands' is to break the statue into pieces so it all comes tumbling to the ground. Since Christ will come to defeat the final beast kingdom, and He is the Stone which the builders rejected, and it is cut out without hands, that stone points to Him, and in Dan.2:44.

In my 'opinion', the clay which won't mix with the iron, represents Islam. Islam and Judeo/Christian belief is a difficult mix, however, that's exactly what's in the idea set forth in the Balfour Declaration of 1917 for a co-existing Israel/Palestine state. A final peace for Jerusalem has been in the works between three major factions, leaders of orthdox Judaism, western Christian leaders, and leaders of Islam. But the whole thing has been mainly under the orchestration of the League of Nations (later United Nations).

That doesn't mean a revived Roman empire like before, because even European royalty, British Zionists and western Presidents have been serving that idea. Even the Israeli general Dyan gave up the part of Jerusalem that Israel took in the '67 war because of that evolving peace plan. A U.S. President couldn't cause that by himself, because the United Nations was involved too. Even the 1948 establishing of the state of Israel, and its borders, were determined through U.N. Charter vote; the U.S. had only one vote (Truman administration).

As huge an influence the United Nations has had upon nations since its beginning, and gaining more power over the nations every day, I'm surprised that so few see it as the basis leadership of the coming final beast kingdom. No mystery either that it has declared Jerusalem already to be "The International City of Peace".

Can Rome be left out of that working within the U.N.? Can any nation on earth be left out of that working? No. So concentrating specifically on one location like Rome, or the U.S., or the EU, or Russia, etc., won't account for the coming final beast kingdom. Because of the Stone that will knock that statue down at His coming, it means ALL of those previous beast kingdoms will be revived once again to make up the complete statue standing to represent the final beast kingdom over all nations upon the earth, the one which Christ is coming to destroy.

Edited March 8, 2009 by Celt