The Last trump

[transmogrified]

8 hours ago, Selah7 said:

According to my understanding, you either experience the first resurrection when Jesus returns at the 7th trump, or you experience the second resurrection after the 1,000-year Millennium if you follow the Lord after Satan's brief release, when he will attempt to deceive people once more. After "The Great White Throne of Judgment," those who still choose to follow Satan shall perish.  

Hello again...:)

   There is a resurrection of both good and bad at the second coming as shown in the wheat and tares, and the sheep and the goats and the good and bad fish analogy in Matthew 13 and 25

It also states that Jesus will judge the living and the dead at his appearing and kingdom, which is of course would be the second coming.

But what happens to the tares, and the goats and bad fish in Matthew? It specifically says the tares are the children of the wicked one and the wheat are the children of the kingdom...but it also states they both grow together until the harvest, which was shown to be at the end of THIS age.

It is important to realize he did not say the tares would be resurrected at the end of the next age, which would be at the end of the 1000 years, but rather BOTH wheat and tares judged and rewarded at the end of this age.

But what happened to the tares at the end of this age? They were cast into the fire at the same time the wheat was judged and rewarded which would occur at the second coming. In other words, the tares did not wait to be  resurrected until the end of the 1000 years and then cast into the fire, but they were cast into everlasting fire at the same time the wheat was judged and rewarded...

In essence there is a resurrection of all the good and the bad that takes place at the second coming, and then there is another resurrection of the good and the bad for those who would continue to live and die in natural bodies throughout the 1000 year time frame until the Great White Throne.

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According to my understanding, you either experience the first resurrection when Jesus returns at the 7th trump, or you experience the second resurrection after the 1,000-year Millennium

What I was getting at from the above quote is that there is a misunderstanding that the wicked dead are not judged until the end of the 1000 years...the main misunderstanding is in the phrase 'the rest of the dead lived not until the 1000 years was finished...' 

Maybe we can talk more about this in another post...Blessings to you- Gary

 

[transmogrified]

7 hours ago, kenny2212 said:

So Gary, if what you say is correct, what happens to believers who are alive at the sounding of the 7th trumpet?

I hope you know they go together; the resurrection of the righteous and the rapture of the living believers.

1 Cor. 15:52, 1 Thess. 4:16-17...

Yes, you have it. What happens in 1 Thess. 4: 16-17 is commonly understood by  pre-trib advocates to be an event that takes place before the tribulation...all that is stated in 1 Thess. 4 is true of course, the only difference is it takes place immediately after the tribulation, rather than before the tribulation. 

There is another error in the pre-trib version. The scripture states when Jesus comes, he will come with all his saints, not part of them. In the pre trib version, he can not come with all the saints because there are  saints that have not yet been killed by the beast. In other words, he can not resurrect saints that have not  died yet.   

The dead in Christ are resurrected and rise first into heaven, then descend down with the Lord to the earth...those who are alive and remain are caught up to meet them in the air and continue on downward to set up the kingdom on the earth.

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I hope you know they go together; the resurrection of the righteous and the rapture of the living believers.

Yes. You have included 1 Cor. 15:52 which clarifies things. ALL the saints will be changed in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye...at the Last Trump. When the resurrection gets placed immediately after the tribulation at the 7th trumpet then the other scriptures fit as well. 

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The rapture is not a reward..it can put one in a position to receive a reward

The rapture is an ascension from this earth...in the case of the dead in Christ they ascend up to heaven where Jesus is on the throne...in the case of the living they ascend up into the air and meet Jesus and the resurrected saints as they descend from heaven to the earth. The only ones that actually go to heaven are the dead in Christ, and they only go there on the Last day and then return and come back to earth with Jesus on this same last day. 

It is shown in Rev. 19:1

"After these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour and power unto the Lord our God...he hath judged the great whore...and I heard a great voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying Alleluia; for the Lord God Omnipotent reigneth..."

So how did all these people get up there to heaven? These are the dead in Christ who were just resurrected and rose up to heaven...from here Jesus descends from heaven with these saints and brings them down with him to the earth...as it says in 1 Thess. 4 'Those that sleep in Jesus God will bring with him...'

So it is crucial to see Jesus is the one DESCENDING down to the earth, because this is his Second COMING..He ascended up into heaven from the Mt. of Olives some 2000 years ago, but now he is going to descend back to the earth. In other words it is the saints who go UP to meet him...but Jesus is not TAKING the saints up to heaven...Jesus is already in heaven...Jesus will be DESCENDING from heaven, and them that sleep in Jesus (the dead in Christ) he will bring with him down to the earth.

But yes, the rapture in and of itself is an ascension up into the air to meet the Lord in the air, the change that Paul spoke about is that this mortal body puts on immortality and we become like unto the glorified body of Jesus....which is a body that never dies, so it is at this point that death is swallowed up in victory, and we become Kings and Priests and rule with Christ over the nations for the 1000 years. 

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The reward is being with the Lord, and we know the Lord resides in the third heaven

Yes, that is where he is now...he ascended up far above all heavens and is the head of all principalities and powers...however the scripture states in 1 Thess. 4:16 That the Lord himself shall DESCEND FROM HEAVEN...in other words he is there now, but at the 7th Trumpet he comes down from heaven to reign on the earth for the 1000 years....when he descends from heaven he will no longer be in heaven...he does not descend and then go back up there...he will reign on the earth with his saints...so when it states 'and so shall we ever be with the Lord,' we have to understand where he will be before we can be with him...because he will return to the earth with his saints then we will be with him on the earth...

Blessings to you- Gary

 

[truth7t7]

2 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Hello again...:)

   There is a resurrection of both good and bad at the second coming as shown in the wheat and tares, and the sheep and the goats and the good and bad fish analogy in Matthew 13 and 25

It also states that Jesus will judge the living and the dead at his appearing and kingdom, which is of course would be the second coming.

But what happens to the tares, and the goats and bad fish in Matthew? It specifically says the tares are the children of the wicked one and the wheat are the children of the kingdom...but it also states they both grow together until the harvest, which was shown to be at the end of THIS age.

It is important to realize he did not say the tares would be resurrected at the end of the next age, which would be at the end of the 1000 years, but rather BOTH wheat and tares judged and rewarded at the end of this age.

But what happened to the tares at the end of this age? They were cast into the fire at the same time the wheat was judged and rewarded which would occur at the second coming. In other words, the tares did not wait to be  resurrected until the end of the 1000 years and then cast into the fire, but they were cast into everlasting fire at the same time the wheat was judged and rewarded...

In essence there is a resurrection of all the good and the bad that takes place at the second coming, and then there is another resurrection of the good and the bad for those who would continue to live and die in natural bodies throughout the 1000 year time frame until the Great White Throne.

What I was getting at from the above quote is that there is a misunderstanding that the wicked dead are not judged until the end of the 1000 years...the main misunderstanding is in the phrase 'the rest of the dead lived not until the 1000 years was finished...' 

Maybe we can talk more about this in another post...Blessings to you- Gary

 

The main understanding is that at the Lords coming (Then Cometh The End) there won't be a Millennial Kingdom on this earth following, as my post above to Last Daze shows

Edited February 15, 2022 by truth7t7

[Last Daze]

10 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Truth7t7 does not believe there is a literal 1000 year reign but regardless we can't assert the 7th Trumpet will sound at one time and then sound again 1000 years later unless it is specifically stated. 

Hey Gary.  I think we're pretty much in agreement on how we see the trumpets.

This is a minor point but if the trump of God is His voice of resurrection authority then the implication is that it will sound at the last resurrection as well.  Although it may not be explicitly stated, the concept is established.  Until the last enemies death and hades are destroyed, His authoritative voice is required.  They won't give up their dead willingly.  As I see it.

Blessings to you my friend.

[transmogrified]

8 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

The main understanding is that at the Lords coming (Then Cometh The End) there won't be a Millennial Kingdom on this earth following, as my post above to Last Daze shows

In a court trial all the evidence must be allowed into the courtroom for the jury to make its decision..like the question might be 'Did John Brown rob the bank?' One lawyer presents evidence that the man was seen wearing a red shirt...and then it was found that John Brown had a red shirt. If that is all the evidence that is allowed to be presented to the jury they might think John Brown is the bank robber.

But if another lawyer finds out that John Brown was not even in town that day, then it could not have been John Brown even though he had a red shirt.

There have been some scriptures that have been presented such as people beating their swords into plowshares and the saints ruling as kings and priest over the nations...these are just a valid scriptures as 'then cometh the end...' 

Of course there will be an end to the kingdoms of this world...but they become the kingdoms of our Lord...in essence they come under new management. It does say that when the stone smites the image on the feet they become like the chaff of the summer threshing floor and the wind drove them away...but the interpretation of this was not that they were all killed and done away with, but rather  'they had their dominion taken away; yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time...'

So it cannot be both ways....they cannot both be killed and have their lives prolonged for a season and a time...

It also states that when these kingdoms became the kingdoms of our Lord that 'all people, nations, and languages, should serve him...'

If all the people and the nations are killed then they cannot also serve him...

Zech. 2:10- "For Lo, I come, and I will dwell in the midst of thee, saith the Lord...and many nations will be joined to the Lord in that day, and shall be my people..."

Yes, it says he will come, (Second Coming) but many nations can not be joined to the Lord in that day (at the Second Coming) if they are all killed.

In Rev. 5:10 it states he will make us kings and priests unto God and we will reign on the earth...

He doesn't say we will be ruling in heaven after he makes the new heaven and the earth, but rather we will reign on the earth...and if we reign on the earth then the earth is still here. If we reign on the earth there must be people to reign over...if we are priests there must be people to make intercession for...if they are all killed none of this would be needed...

Its not as if there are no nations mentioned that remain on the earth..there are scriptures showing this...its not as if there are no scriptures saying we will reign on the earth....there are scriptures showing this...there are also other scriptures saying 'then cometh the end...' and in places it means the end of this physical world and it is melted with fervent heat...but if these are not placed in the right time context it vilifies the other scriptures showing the saints ruling over the nations...

These scriptures, and others, need to be allowed  as evidence and given a proper hearing.

Blessings to you- Gary

 

 

[transmogrified]

20 hours ago, Last Daze said:

This is a minor point but if the trump of God is His voice of resurrection authority then the implication is that it will sound at the last resurrection as well.  Although it may not be explicitly stated, the concept is established.  Until the last enemies death and hades are destroyed, His authoritative voice is required.  They won't give up their dead willingly.  As I see it.

Hello again...:)

    Here are a couple of other scriptures to consider....

John 5:28 "....for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice and shall come forth..."

When Jesus raised up Lazarus from the dead it was his voice -

John 11:41-43 "...Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me...And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said, that they may believe that thou hast sent me. And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth..."

Also when the two witnesses were resurrected it says:

Rev. 11:12 "...and they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud..."

So the word 'shout' in 1 Thess. 4 where it says 'The Lord shall descend from heaven with a shout....' the word shout in Strongs means:

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An order, command, spec. a stimulating cry....or that by which a signal is given to men...

The two instances with Lazarus and the two witnesses were a loud command or an order...i.e. 

1) Lazarus come forth..!

2) Come up hither..!

 

In Mark 5:41 Jesus raises Tabitha from the dead with his voice...

"And he took the damsel by the hand and said unto her Talitha cumi, which is being interpreted, "Damsel, I say unto thee, Arise." 

It seems to me the voice of the Lord is what actually raises the dead and the trumpet is more of a timing issue...like he says...'We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed (glorified) in a moment in a twinkling of an eye...at the Last Trump, not by the Last Trump

Blessings to you and good to talk with you- Gary

[Last Daze]

4 minutes ago, transmogrified said:

Hello again...:)

    Here are a couple of other scriptures to consider....

John 5:28 "....for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice and shall come forth..."

When Jesus raised up Lazarus from the dead it was his voice -

John 11:41-43 "...Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me...And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said, that they may believe that thou hast sent me. And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth..."

Also when the two witnesses were resurrected it says:

Rev. 11:12 "...and they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud..."

So the word 'shout' in 1 Thess. 4 where it says 'The Lord shall descend from heaven with a shout....' the word shout in Strongs means:

The two instances with Lazarus and the two witnesses were a loud command or an order...i.e. 

1) Lazarus come forth..!

2) Come up hither..!

 

In Mark 5:41 Jesus raises Tabitha from the dead with his voice...

"And he took the damsel by the hand and said unto her Talitha cumi, which is being interpreted, "Damsel, I say unto thee, Arise." 

It seems to me the voice of the Lord is what actually raises the dead and the trumpet is more of a timing issue...like he says...'We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed (glorified) in a moment in a twinkling of an eye...at the Last Trump, not by the Last Trump

Blessings to you and good to talk with you- Gary

Good points to ponder.  I'll leave you with this:

Then the Lord will appear over them,
And His arrow will go forth like lightning;
And the Lord God will blow the trumpet,
And march in the storm winds of the south.  Zechariah 9:14

Thanks for the chat.

[transmogrified]

18 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

Good points to ponder.  I'll leave you with this:

Then the Lord will appear over them,
And His arrow will go forth like lightning;
And the Lord God will blow the trumpet,
And march in the storm winds of the south.  Zechariah 9:14

Yes, indeed I have looked at that verse, and it might seem a contradiction at first glance because the angels are given the trumpets and then they sound them, not the Lord.

However I think we cannot disanul the issue that the angels are still the ones who sound the trumpets and when it says 'the Lord God will blow the trumpet' it may mean he instituted the trumpets to be blown.

Here is an example...When the Lord appeared to Abraham concerning Sodom, Abraham intreated the Lord...'if there be just 50 will you destroy it...or 40...ect...'

God's answer was to him...'If I find 50 people I will not destroy it...'

So from this conversation it appears that God himself was going to destroy the city, however when the angels visited Lot it says:

For we will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the LORD; and the LORD hath sent us to destroy it.

So although God did say he would destroy it, he actually destroyed it by sending the angels to do it, but even then other scriptures state God destroyed Sodom.

So I don't think we can set aside that these angels were given seven trumpets and they each one sounded them and then somehow say the seventh angel did not actually sound the trumpet but instead God blew the trumpet...

Of course both scriptures are inspired and are true, but to avoid a contradiction I don't think we can actually say the one scripture about the 7th angel sounding the trumpet is wrong because he said in another setting that God himself would blow the trumpet.

Thoughts?

[abcdef]

19 minutes ago, transmogrified said:

 

So I don't think we can set aside that these angels were given seven trumpets and they each one sounded them and then somehow say the seventh angel did not actually sound the trumpet but instead God blew the trumpet...

Of course both scriptures are inspired and are true, but to avoid a contradiction I don't think we can actually say the one scripture about the 7th angel sounding the trumpet is wrong because he said in another setting that God himself would blow the trumpet.

Thoughts?

I believe that things are different in the spirit.

Spirits are not restricted to material bodies as we are in the flesh.

The spirits may be able to blend together, or when we think of angels or spirits, they may be a  facet of God revealed to us.

How the spirits interact, we won't know until we get there.

Just thinking.

[Last Daze]

41 minutes ago, transmogrified said:

Yes, indeed I have looked at that verse, and it might seem a contradiction at first glance because the angels are given the trumpets and then they sound them, not the Lord.

However I think we cannot disanul the issue that the angels are still the ones who sound the trumpets and when it says 'the Lord God will blow the trumpet' it may mean he instituted the trumpets to be blown.

Here is an example...When the Lord appeared to Abraham concerning Sodom, Abraham intreated the Lord...'if there be just 50 will you destroy it...or 40...ect...'

God's answer was to him...'If I find 50 people I will not destroy it...'

So from this conversation it appears that God himself was going to destroy the city, however when the angels visited Lot it says:

For we will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the LORD; and the LORD hath sent us to destroy it.

So although God did say he would destroy it, he actually destroyed it by sending the angels to do it, but even then other scriptures state God destroyed Sodom.

So I don't think we can set aside that these angels were given seven trumpets and they each one sounded them and then somehow say the seventh angel did not actually sound the trumpet but instead God blew the trumpet...

Of course both scriptures are inspired and are true, but to avoid a contradiction I don't think we can actually say the one scripture about the 7th angel sounding the trumpet is wrong because he said in another setting that God himself would blow the trumpet.

Thoughts?

But Rev 11:15 states that the seventh angel sounded.  For me, it comes down to who has resurrection authority? 

My view is that when the seventh angel sounds, the day of the Lord begins.  Jesus leaves heaven and sounds the trump of God and continues to destroy Satan's kingdom and remove the wicked from the earth.  The meek will inherit the earth and the millennial kingdom of Christ begins.

So I agree that the last trump is sounded at the seventh trumpet.  However, I don't see the last trump as being the seventh.