Who is Resurrected, and When?

[farouk]

6 minutes ago, Diaste said:

Ah...

It could be as general as you say. 

The Elect

eklektos: select, by impl. favorite

Original Word: ἐκλεκτός, ή, όν
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: eklektos
Phonetic Spelling: (ek-lek-tos')
Definition: select, by implication favorite
Usage: chosen out, elect, choice, select, sometimes as subst: of those chosen out by God for the rendering of special service to Him (of the Hebrew race, particular Hebrews, the Messiah, and the Christians).

HELPS Word-studies

Cognate: 1588 eklektós (an adjective, derived from 1586 /eklégomai, "to select, choose," also used as a substantive/noun) – properly, selected (chosen from, out of), especially as a deeply personal choice – literally "chosen, out of a personal preference (intention)." See 1586 (eklegomai).

I'm trying to work through this with @DeighAnn. So we go to be with the Lord the moment we die. So who is sleeping waiting to be resurrected? 

For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.

15By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep.

We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed

I think it's a judgment call to say it's all 'Christians'. Christians have done some very nasty things all the while putting their belief in Jesus. The elect will be the sincere ones, not the pretenders. 

But even in that the pretenders will get their chance to be sincere.

 

 

@Diaste Some ppl speak of a so called 'partial rapture', but I don't see it anywhere in Scripture.

[Diaste]

5 hours ago, Uriah said:

I think you are contradicting other statements you made. And with the resurrection in Rev 20:4/5 containing martyrs and tribbers and, "authority to judge was given to them" who will they judge? Nobody! It is a resurrections for martyrs and tribbers. None of the unrighteous are seen there. And they won't be able to judge anyone at the end of the thousand yrs. because you said that is the GWT judgment, not theirs!  

Not exactly. I don't think I have touched on who in the Kingdom are the ones reigned over. That's really another discussion altogether, but.... What I do see is the survivor nations from Zech 14,

"Then all the survivors from the nations that came against Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King,"

I think these peoples would certainly have over them the administration of the Kingdom. And there are these as well in Zech 14:

For I will gather all the nations for battle against Jerusalem, and the city will be captured, the houses looted, and the women ravished. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be removed from the city.

3Then the LORD will go out to fight against those nations, as He fights in the day of battle. 4On that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half the mountain moving to the north and half to the south. 5You will flee by My mountain valley, for it will extend to Azal. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come, and all the holy ones with Him.

So this would leave Jews to reign over for the 12 that were promised they would judge the 12 tribes. Many people think, I don't know why, that it's the resurrected from the primary resurrection, which is always construed to be all from all time, that are reigned over by other 'christians' in the kingdom.

But I don't see that. If all from all time take part in the primary resurrection then all are given life to reign with Christ for 1000 years. So there would be no subjects in the kingdom under that scenario either. The subjects in the kingdom are the survivor nations, and the people of Jerusalem who survived in the city when it was sacked, and the Jews who fled to valley created by Lord alighting on the Mount of Olives. 

Of the first resurrection it is said 'the rest of the dead lived not again until the 1000 years were complete'. Those dead are not alive to be subjects in the kingdom, but wait for the GWT at the end of the 1000 years. I assume, I could be wrong, that during the 1000 years people live and die. Those dead, if there are any, also would appear at the GWT. The GWT is Jesus judging all those dead people, freshly resurrected, people not resurrected in the primary resurrection.

I also don't think the 12 judging the 12 tribes, and the reigning with Christ, and whatever that administration entails, is equivalent to the finality of the GWT.

The kingdom is an administration of authority not much different than what we see in our world. The kingdom and the administration will be characterized by righteous judgements in justice and mercy; probably no more profound in many cases, than land disputes, theft, neighborly squabbles, domestic issues and the like. The difference will be in the righteousness of the decisions; something the world today does not have. 

I hope no thinks we will judge the final disposition of the people. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Diaste]

21 minutes ago, farouk said:

@Diaste Some ppl speak of a so called 'partial rapture', but I don't see it anywhere in Scripture.

I do not either. 

[Diaste]

20 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Amazing!  Of course the phrase "those who belong to Him" is "precisely defined".

Okay. Where are the attributes of those defined in context? What are Jesus' specific requirements in those who belong to Him? Who makes the judgement call on the identity of these same people? Where do they come from?

And where does the text specifically and directly address the attributes and characteristics of 'those who belong to Him', plus answer the other questions above?

 

20 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

How else would one define ALL saved people?  Do you have any ideas on how Paul could have "improved" 1 Cor 15:23?

Now where does the text say 'all'? 

20 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

The phrase is as specific as one can express it.  Everyone who has expressed saving faith in the Messiah belongs to Him.

It's not. That's your definition. A gap filled. The text does not get specific on identity. You do that. Many others do that. 

20 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Or, prove me wrong by showing which saved people don't belong to Him.  That would be the only way to prove your point.

Proving you wrong is illogical and I have no interest in that. I am going to state the case and the facts thereof. You aren't required to do anything with it and I have no compelling reason to do otherwise.

20 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

And not even "good luck" with help you here.

Don't need luck, facts will do nicely. 

[Diaste]

 

21 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

[double click failed.  It should be rather easy to prove me wrong IF any of those raised from the dead during Jesus' ministry were immortal.

Not how it works. True facts logically parsed for a true conclusion. You prove your own positive assertion.

21 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

 So please be my guest.  If I'm wrong, I would really like to know.  And the only way to know I'm wrong is to SEE actual evidence from Scripture that Lazarus became immortal and never died again.

Again, It's not up to me. A good detective will make the attempt to falsify his own theories.

Missing evidence prove two things only; either there is no evidence or, the evidence has not yet been found. Not even Hecule Poirot comes to conclusions by lack of evidence. 

So a lack of evidence doesn't prove anything. 

21 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

 And then explain where he is now.  And all the others that Jesus and the apostles raised from the dead.  If you can do this, I will believe it.]

I don't know. The text doesn't say. It would be speculative to say they died another death or that they went to heaven. Feel free to apply a favorite bias to the conclusion. 

You conclude a resurrection must be to immortality. That idea isn't in the definition of resurrection. Why don't you prove that it is? 

 

 

 

21 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

I think you need to study 1 Cor 15 a lot.  Paul explained the Second Advent resurrection of all believers, who will receive an immortal glorified body, one just like Jesus has.

Where is this 'all'?

21 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Nobody previously raised from the dead received a body like Jesus.  Or PROVE it from Scripture.  All you're doing is disagreeing with me.  PROVE me wrong with evidence, if you have any.

Speculative, unless you can prove with a direct statement or a logical progression of true fact. 

21 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

But I'm very familiar with Scripture and KNOW that there is no evidence for your opinion.

Sure. So are cult leaders and dictators. Proves nothing. 

 

 

 

 

[Diaste]

23 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Diaste.

In ALL of the Bible, I've NEVER read of "spiritual heavens!" Sorry, but that is a MISNOMER that is manufactured, in part, by the theory that "the first heaven is of clouds, the second heaven is of stars, and the third heaven is God's abode." There is NO biblical evidence for such a belief!

Instead, we have PETER'S words that say, "the first heaven was before the Flood, the second heaven is between the Flood and the Fire, and the third heaven is after the Fire." (summarized from 2 Peter 3:3-13).

Yeeshuwa` went up through the sky to His Father's House, the New Jerusalem.

The twe witnesses went up into the sky, and we aren't told where they went after that! From all the other clues in Revelation, I would surmise that they, too, were caught up in the Resurrection of the Justified and were collected by the Messiah's messengers for His Kingdom during the Return of the Messiah, to be deposited in the Middle East as the Messiah arrives to win back His Land in a war which ends with the Battle at Har-Megiddown!

Just relating a contextual definition and posting the parallel between Jesus ascension and the 2Ws. Looks mighty similar. 

[Diaste]

On 2/21/2023 at 3:05 AM, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, @Diaste.

To add a thought separately, consider the parable Yeeshuwa` ("Jesus") used in Luke 19:

Luke 19:11-27 (KJV)

11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear. 12 He said therefore,

"A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return. 13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them,

"'Occupy till I come.'

14 "But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying,

"'We will not have this man to reign over us!'

15 "And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading. 16 Then came the first, saying,

"'Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.'

17 "And he said unto him,

"'Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.'

18 "And the second came, saying,

"'Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds.'

19 "And he said likewise to him,

"'Be thou also over five cities.'

20 "And another came, saying,

"'Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin: 21 For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow.'

22 "And he saith unto him,

"'Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow: 23 Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury?'

24 "And he said unto them that stood by,

"'Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds.'

25 "(And they said unto him,

"'Lord, he hath ten pounds!') 

26 "'For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him. 27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me!' "

Doesn't seem topical. What should I consider?

[Diaste]

23 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Don't make the mistake that many Christians do. They assume that somehow Christian believers are different than believers before the Christ (the Messiah) came at His First Advent. ANY of those who were humble to God and obeyed Him and may have also asked Him to intercede on their behalf were JUSTIFIED by God! That includes those in the "Old Testament" times, like Avraham and David, for instance! 

I don't. I fact I have argued against ideas like the Dispensation of Grace [it's always been by grace] and Replacement Theology[we are grafted in, adopted in, to the Family].

23 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

And, there is no difference between those who endured the tribulation and those who did not. Frankly, the tribulation is ALREADY GOING ON and has been for almost 2,000 years! So, we all after the Messiah's Resurrection are included in that "tribulation!"

No A of D, no GT. Ever. No 2000 years of GT. In fact GT isn't 7 years, nor even 3.5. Matt 24:15-30 has been wildly misinterpreted or outright ignored. 

[Diaste]

On 2/20/2023 at 9:44 PM, not an echo said:

Continuing from my preceding post (page 140, post 2) and remaining mindful of what I showed in the last half of it, how are we to understand what Jesus meant by the "last day" and Martha's concept of this?  It is a help to remember that Jesus also spoke of a resurrection to "life" and a resurrection to "damnation" (Jn. 5:29).  It is certainly easy to suppose that the "last day" resurrection Jesus was speaking of in John 6:39-40, 44, and 54 would have been the resurrection to "life" and the one that Martha had on her mind when thinking of Lazarus.

One can suppose a lot of things. The imagination of mankind is boundless and vain.

On 2/20/2023 at 9:44 PM, not an echo said:

 

  Jesus also spoke of this resurrection as the "resurrection of the just" (Lk. 14:14).

No. There is no parallel here. The 'last day' isn't likened to Luke 14:14.

Then Jesus said to the man who had invited Him, “When you host a dinner or a banquet, do not invite your friends or brothers or relatives or rich neighbors. Otherwise, they may invite you in return, and you will be repaid. 13But when you host a banquet, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, and the blind, 14and you will be blessed. Since they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous.”

On 2/20/2023 at 9:44 PM, not an echo said:

It is certainly easy to also suppose that the resurrection to "life" and of "the just" is the resurrection that Paul was inspired to write of in I Corinthians 15...

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

This is the same event that he spoke of in I Thessalonians 4...

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

I see nothing in Scripture that would suggest that the resurrection Paul spoke of should be taken as being anything other than the resurrection of "the just" to "life" that Jesus spoke of.

Who does? No one I know is saying it isn't. Do you twist my words to think that's what I'm saying? It's quite clear I have said numerous times in this thread the primary resurrection is to life with Jesus and reigning for 1000 years. 

Do you just ignore everything and steamroll ahead with various suppositions presented as truth in daily life too? 

Why would you upend all my posts in all the conversations in this way?

 

On 2/20/2023 at 9:44 PM, not an echo said:

Because we have evidences of when this resurrection occurs, this evidence will serve us concerning our "last day" question.  Note that right after Paul spoke to the Thessalonians about "the dead in Christ" rising and those that "are alive and remain" being "caught up",  he said this to them in chapter five...

1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

2 For yourselves know perfectly that the Day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

Consider:  The "Day of the Lord" or "that day" that Paul spoke of above begins the same day that the 6th Seal is opened (Rev. 6:12-17, esp. vs. 17).  This is in fulfillment of the part of Joel's prophecy---quoted by Peter on the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2:20/Joel 2:31)---that concerns this day.  Also, the event of the beginning of this day joins hard to the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" that Jesus spoke of in His Olivet Discourse, at which time "He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other" (Matt. 24:29-31).  All these scriptures are like prophetic puzzle pieces that come together and interconnect with pieces we find in John's account of the opening of the 6th Seal.  Also relating to the opening of the 6th Seal is the "great multitude" that John sees at this time, which understandably becomes a big focus of attention (Rev. 7:9-17)!

This isn't a thread for your take on the Pretrib Rapture. 

We are discussing Who is Resurrected, and When? in the context provided in the OP, with that evidence, and those conclusions.

With these many long posts that fail to directly address the OP, this is looking more and more like an attempted derailing. I would ask you to stop doing this.

On 2/20/2023 at 9:44 PM, not an echo said:

Much suggests that the "last day" Jesus spoke of and that Martha had on her mind connects hard with the day that God's future judgment of this world will come---something immensely huge.  I see a fitting parallel to this with the judgment of God that came on the world in Noah's day.  If Noah, while preparing the ark, had of used a phrase like the "last day" while talking with his family about the pending flood that God had warned him of, the meaning for them at that time would have been quite clear---the "last day" for preparing for God's judgment.  We know that Noah and his family were prepared for this---the same as we should be prepared now.  A phrase like the "last day" spoken in reference to the time of God's pending judgment would not have fit any other day in Noah's time but this one, given in Genesis 7...

This isn't about the last day. It is more evidence this is just to distract. 

On 2/20/2023 at 9:44 PM, not an echo said:

11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, THE SAME DAY were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.

Likewise for the time in which we live.  This is the day that all humanity needs to be prepared for, but relatively few will be---just like in Noah's time.  What will that "last day" be like?  Read Revelation 6:12-17.

Interestingly, if you had looked in the ark that "seventeenth day" of the "second month" you would have seen a different "great multitude"!   It could have been rightly said of Noah, his family, and all those animals that they "came out of great tribulation" too.  Say what?  You know, when "the wickedness of man was great in the earth" and "every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually" and "the earth was corrupt" and "filled with violence" (Gen. 6:5-13)---just like it is today.  Ya need to think about what I'm showing ya Diaste.  From a historical and worldwide perspective, if God's children are gathered today, could it be said of them and us that we "came out of great tribulation"?  I'm not understanding why not.  Perhaps those that think not will think otherwise before the week or month is out.  Hmmm.  Oops, I went off topic. 

Pretty sure I addressed this. No A of D, no GT as described in Matt 24:15-30. Ever. Way off topic though. Again.

On 2/20/2023 at 9:44 PM, not an echo said:

 

More to come...

Please don't unless it addresses the OP directly. 

[Selah7]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

Ah...

It could be as general as you say. 

The Elect

eklektos: select, by impl. favorite

Original Word: ἐκλεκτός, ή, όν
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: eklektos
Phonetic Spelling: (ek-lek-tos')
Definition: select, by implication favorite
Usage: chosen out, elect, choice, select, sometimes as subst: of those chosen out by God for the rendering of special service to Him (of the Hebrew race, particular Hebrews, the Messiah, and the Christians).

HELPS Word-studies

Cognate: 1588 eklektós (an adjective, derived from 1586 /eklégomai, "to select, choose," also used as a substantive/noun) – properly, selected (chosen from, out of), especially as a deeply personal choice – literally "chosen, out of a personal preference (intention)." See 1586 (eklegomai).

I'm trying to work through this with @DeighAnn. So we go to be with the Lord the moment we die. So who is sleeping waiting to be resurrected? 

For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.

15By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep.

We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed

I think it's a judgment call to say it's all 'Christians'. Christians have done some very nasty things all the while putting their belief in Jesus. The elect will be the sincere ones, not the pretenders. 

But even in that the pretenders will get their chance to be sincere.

 

 

Yes, when our fleshly bodies die, we immediately go to be with the Lord.

So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. For we walk by faith, not by sight. We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. Therefore we make it our aim, whether present or absent, to be well pleasing to Him.

- 2 Corinthians 5:6-9 

Remember your Creator before the silver cord is loosed, Or the golden bowl is broken, Or the pitcher shattered at the fountain, Or the wheel broken at the well. Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, And the spirit will return to God who gave it.

- Ecclesiastes 12:6-7

In the same way that we may say someone has "passed away" rather than that they have died, Paul uses the word "asleep.”

Any true Christian (versus a pretend one) when he sins, will repent of his sins and ask for forgiveness.

He has not dealt with us according to our sins, Nor punished us according to our iniquities. As far as the east is from the west, So far has He removed our transgressions from us. As a father pities his children, So the LORD pities those who fear Him. For He knows our frame; He remembers that we are dust. But the mercy of the LORD is from everlasting to everlasting On those who fear Him, And His righteousness to children's children, To such as keep His covenant, And to those who remember His commandments to do them.

- Psalm 103:10,12-14,17-18