Who is Resurrected, and When?

[farouk]

On 11/16/2022 at 4:02 PM, DeighAnn said:

You mean, OUR BRETHREN of the prophets and our fellowservants, don't you?  You know in the resurrection we are AS THE ANGELS IN HEAVEN, right? 


10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

 

DeighAnn I love the humility of John there, how he did not at all want to be worshipped or put on a pedestal.

[DeighAnn]

21 minutes ago, farouk said:

DeighAnn I love the humility of John there, how he did not at all want to be worshipped or put on a pedestal.

It was John falling at the angels' feet, right?  What I love is how much INFO we are given in such a few words.  Angels in heaven are OUR BRETHREN and of the prophets.  Angels in heaven are not to be worshipped.  Angels in heaven have bodies with mouths and feet. 

So we learn in one verse that 'brethren' of the prophets were in heaven, were called angels, and had bodies, back in 95AD.  I do love that verse

[farouk]

14 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

It was John falling at the angels' feet, right?  What I love is how much INFO we are given in such a few words.  Angels in heaven are OUR BRETHREN and of the prophets.  Angels in heaven are not to be worshipped.  Angels in heaven have bodies with mouths and feet. 

So we learn in one verse that 'brethren' of the prophets were in heaven, were called angels, and had bodies, back in 95AD.  I do love that verse

DeighAnn Thanks for the gracious contextual explanation about who is speaking there.

I was probably thinking of John in Revelation 1.9, where he says with humility:

"I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation..."

[Diaste]

20 hours ago, Selah7 said:

Those who take part in the First Resurrection have already been given eternal life by God.  He thinks it’s important, right?  The ruling and reigning of the First Resurrection group is a reward and honor, again given by God, to teach truth to others that don’t know. 

I don't disagree. Not really an answer to the question I asked, however.

 

[Diaste]

20 hours ago, Selah7 said:

Here are a few:
 

"So I said, 'Lord, they know that in every synagogue I imprisoned and beat those who believe on You. 'And when the blood of Your martyr Stephen was shed, I also was standing by consenting to his death, and guarding the clothes of those who were killing him.'

- Acts 22:19-20 (NKJV)
 

Now about that time Herod the king stretched out his hand to harass some from the church. Then he killed James the brother of John with the sword.

- Acts 12:1-2 (NKJV)

At that time Herod the tetrarch heard the report about Jesus and said to his servants, "This is John the Baptist; he is risen from the dead, and therefore these powers are at work in him." For Herod had laid hold of John and bound him, and put him in prison for the sake of Herodias, his brother Philip's wife. Because John had said to him, "It is not lawful for you to have her." And although he wanted to put him to death, he feared the multitude, because they counted him as a prophet. But when Herod's birthday was celebrated, the daughter of Herodias danced before them and pleased Herod. Therefore he promised with an oath to give her whatever she might ask. So she, having been prompted by her mother, said, "Give me John the Baptist's head here on a platter." And the king was sorry; nevertheless, because of the oaths and because of those who sat with him, he commanded it to be given to her. So he sent and had John beheaded in prison.

- Matthew 14:1-10 (NKJV)

 

Okay. You'll have to explain this because I don't understand your point here.

How does this prove the souls under the altar are the martyrs from the 1st century to today and that John the Baptist and Stephen are in that group?

Sure they were martyrs, but are they under the altar as we see in Rev 6? 

Maybe they are. Maybe they are not. That's what I would like to know.

 

[Diaste]

20 hours ago, Uriah said:

All of God's word is important/vital. 

We glean many things from the facts of scripture. And every bit of His word is there for a reason from god's perspective.

Of course. I was looking for the psychology of religion regarding the importance of ruling and reigning compared to the great inheritance of life eternal with God in the Kingdom.

It seems as though a great deal of importance is placed on the general resurrection of all who have died in Christ from the foundation of the world, and that is synonymous with the primary resurrection of Rev 20:4-5. 

We have all been taught by religion that any who die in Christ will be resurrected in the 1st resurrection to rule and reign with Christ for 1000 years. 

Not much is ever taught about just being invited in to receive the inheritance prepared from the foundation of the world; the promised kingdom and, one assumes, life eternal.

Then it's almost as if religion alludes through silence, or at least it's tacit at this point, to this idea; if you don't take part in the first resurrection one is simply cast into the lake of fire at the 2nd death, which is not true. 

I wonder about that. I wonder why that is. 

I wonder why religion demands all in Christ from all time are taken in the first resurrection to rule and reign and how that's a valid conclusion, and also why gaining the inheritance of the kingdom seems to be shoved in the trunk like something that isn't really necessary to talk about.

 

 

[Diaste]

18 hours ago, abcdef said:

Yes, that is 2, but there are no more resurrections after that. Hunan life on this planet ends, after Jesus comes for the gospel kingdom of Israel. The time line that says that there is human life left on this planet, may be misguided.

Sure there is; the primary resurrection and the 2nd death 1000 years later. It's not possible Christ resurrected all at His resurrection as the primary resurrection only happens when He returns as 1 Cor 15:20-26 and 1 Thess 4 tells us. Since He has not yet returned 1 Cor 15:20-26 shows 3 resurrections. 

18 hours ago, abcdef said:

Following the pre-trib timeline, which is debated within pre-trib itself, it shows a resurrection in several places,

1. Jesus

2. Rev 4:1-2, John

3. The 5th seal trib martyrs

4. 2 witnesses

5. 7th trumpet

6. Rev 14

7. Rev 19-20, beginning of the mill period

8. Rev 20, end of the mill period

So according to the "general" pre-trib theory, there are 8 resurrections.

You say 3 resurrections.

I say 2 only, 1 Cor 15:23-28, 23-24.

------

Are we going to approach the question of who is resurrected and when by,

1. Trying to fit the resurrections into a "7 year trib followed by a mill period".

or

2. Allow the resurrections to set the timeline.

Not pretrib. I don't subscribe to anything pretrib. I feel any preacher or teacher that is pretrib is tainted in every teaching beyond the message of salvation by Christ Jesus alone and none other.

18 hours ago, abcdef said:

What I'm saying is that if 1 Cor 15:23-28, 23-24, is showing only 2 resurrections, then can't we take all the other examples and determine if they are speaking about the first resurrection when Jesus was resurrected or the 2nd resurrection (resur/rapt) when Jesus comes for the Pentecost gospel kingdom of Israel?

IF. But 1 Cor 15 is clear about two and alludes to the 3rd where death is destroyed, parallel to Rev 20:11-15 where death is thrown into the lake of fire.

18 hours ago, abcdef said:

Yes we can, but we have to leave the pre-trib timeline behind.

Just to say, pre-trib will never get the numbers to fit together because of many problems with the approach.

The numbers and symbols used to determine the length and time of events and periods are symbolic and not necessarily literal.

Perhaps they are symbolic. 

18 hours ago, abcdef said:

----

Try this, In Dan. 2, the stone strikes the statue, is that a resurrection? If so, which one?

-----

So in the end we still have the question:

"Is the group in Rev 7 about the throne, and the group in Rev 20 who came to life, only from GT and faced the power and reign of beast? Or is this group from all time?"

[Diaste]

14 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

John 5:23 that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.

* in John 5:23 Jesus is speaking to a mixed crowd and a lot of the Leaders of the people were present who wanted to kill Jesus. "Those" people were set to do harm to Jesus they did not believe that he was the Christ of God. But "those" people they Honor the Father doing what the Law was asking them to do. But inspite of that Jesus told them that their honoring the Father is not accepted by the Father because they do not "accept that Jesus is the Christ". Jesus told them that they have to honor him to be  accepted by the Father. 

In other words Jesus was telling them that their planning to kill him is not from the Father because the Father wants them to honor Jesus as the Christ of God..

*someone may argue that the will of God it was for Jesus to die, and if those people wanted to kill Jesus for that reason they were in the will of God...

While we have come (I am advocating for Jesus now) to understand that God's wish was for Jesus to die, which we do not deny that, but his wish it was for Jesus to died on the Cross and to go through all the testing God had put before him, to fulfilled what was written about him in the volume of the book..and the timing it had to be, the timing the Father had appoint for that to take place, and not the timing of man, (the timing of the Devil). Jesus to be proven that he was, is the Christ had to be argued in the future by fulfilling what it was written about him in the volume of the book.

Jesus had to be Judged by the Father on everything that he had asked him and in what was written about him and that was the proof that Jesus had pass the Judgment of the Father, that's why we say that the Father raised Jesus from the dead...Yes Jesus was in the Life and when he died he was still in the Life and while in the place of the dead he continued to be in the Life, which it is interpreted that he did what the Father had set before him to do, even those three days while he was in the place of the dead Jesus was still on his mission from the Father.  

Did Jesus speak at that time about what was his mission from the Father, what he the Father was asking him to do those three days before his Judgment from the Father at the completion of his mission to the dead? 

John 5: 22-27

22 Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son,

23 that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.

24 “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

25 Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. 

26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. 

27 And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man.

 

I don't disagree prima facie but I'm not sure this digs into the questions asked. 

How does this relate to who takes part in the primary resurrection and who does not?

[Diaste]

17 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

As you have been clearly shown, there are two resurrection on the last day, this take place at the second coming (The End)

The righteous saved are blessed to be in the "First" resurrection to eternal life, the wicked partake in the "Second" resurrection to eternal damnation

I have certainly listened to the rhetoric. 

None of which shows whom shares in the primary resurrection and whom does not.

And the idea there are two separate resurrections called the 'primary resurrection' and the '2nd death', that are distinct from each other and separated by 1000 years, is pretty clear in Rev 20.

Dan 12:1-3 doesn't preclude the primary resurrection of Rev 20:4-5. Daniel is speaking to the 2nd resurrection where death has power and only some are found whose names are not in the Book of Life:

"And if anyone was found whose name was not written in the Book of Life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."

And Matt 25:

Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave Me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave Me something to drink, I was a stranger and you took Me in, 36I was naked and you clothed Me, I was sick and you looked after Me, I was in prison and you visited Me.’

37Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You something to drink? 38When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39When did we see You sick or in prison and visit You?’

40And the King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of Mine, you did for Me.’

41Then He will say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave Me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave Me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, I was naked and you did not clothe Me, I was sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’

44And they too will reply, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’

45Then the King will answer, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for Me.’

46And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

This judgement happens at the same time and is the 2nd resurrection where both the righteous and wicked are judged at court in tandem.

This is not the case with the first resurrection as we see no judgement there, only coming to life and ruling with Christ for 1000 years.

Just like in Rev 7 where we see the large group about the throne who have washed their robes in the blood of Christ, apart from any judgement, as they came out from within GT.

That shows us there are two quite distinct resurrections for distinct groups; and the righteous are saved in both. 

Edited November 20, 2022 by Diaste

[Selah7]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

This judgement happens at the same time and is the 2nd resurrection where both the righteous and wicked are judged at court in tandem.

I believe that the millennium is designed for those who never knew Jesus for whatever reason.  

I also believe that the righteous will not be judged at the Great White Throne Judgment because they have already overcome and have already received eternal life.  The GWTJ is for those who were taught the Truth during the millennium to see whether or not they would  choose to follow Jesus.  Those who choose Jesus after this 1,000-year period are good to go.  This is the second resurrection.  Those who do not choose Jesus, into the Lake of Fire they will go.