Who is Resurrected, and When?

[Diaste]

20 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

You Respond With Wilful "Disobedience" To Scriptural Truth

There are (Two) resurrections on this (Last Day) the righteous are blessed to be in the (First Resurrection) to eternal life, on such the (Second Death) resurrection has no power.

1.) (First Resurrection) To Life

2.) (Second Death) Resurrection To Damnation

 

This will be the last time I'm going to go down this road in this vein.

"

Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

5The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years were complete. This is the first resurrection.

The only group in evidence here is the one beheaded for their testimony and in addition to, the one who refused the mark and refused to worship the beast and the image. No others are mentioned here as coming to life in the primary resurrection and ruling and reigning with Christ for 1000 years. 

If you can show where another group is in the 1st resurrection, with the same specific language as in Rev 20:4-5, great. If not, then it's time to change your thinking.

20 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

 

The (Last Day) Resurrection Of All Below

Daniel 12:1-2KJV

1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

 

This doesn't tell us who takes part in the primary resurrection as in Rev 20:4-5. It's just the fact of a resurrection with a lack of important details like the ones found in Rev 20:4-5

20 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

 

John 5:28-29KJV

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

 

Same as above. This is quoting Daniel 12.

20 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

 

John 6:39-40KJV

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

Yes, the fact of the last day resurrection. No clues as to when the last day is, nor whom participates in the primary resurrection. So that again doesn't answer the question I'm asking; Who takes part in the Primary Resurrection? Only those in Rev 20:4-5 is the only direct evidence I see.

20 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

 

1 Corinthians 15:21-24KJV

21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

The (Last Day) Judgement

John 12:48KJV

48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

More of the same. 

You can't just ignore Rev 20:4-5.

[Diaste]

17 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

Who is a martyr for the testimony of the Gospel?

Stephen is a martyr for the testimony of Jesus but not John the Baptist.  

Above are the statement and now the reasons to support the above statements. 

Stephen died after the Cross by stoning because of his testimony of the Gospel, because he stood firm till the end for what he believed. He died as a heir of Jesus who was in Heaven and sited at the right of God on God's Throne at the time of his death. Stephen was not beheaded.  

James one of the twelve also died for what he believed and he stood firm till the end for the testimony of Jesus...Herod order him to die by  the Sword. We do not have any details of what took place as we do with John the Baptist.  

James died during the Gospel times for what he believed.  

If we knew how the order to die by the Sword was executed at that time, then we would be able to say if he was beheaded or not...

 The order was not to die by beheading...but to die by the Sword.

James also endured till the death and he died for the testimony of Jesus. And was a heir of Jesus who was in Heaven and whom God had made him Lord and Judge over all. 

Both Stephen and James were overcomers and they did not bow down to the beast and his Image and they died in Jesus, they were heirs of Heaven. 

At death they could not be separated from their Heavenly Inheritance and Jesus Christ and the Heavenly Father because they were one with them.  

This was made possible because their earthly body died and they were free from it. At the death of their earthly body they went to be with their Patriarch, their Patriarch of Life Jesus Christ. 

They were in him in his righteousness and in his eternal Life. In his Inheritance. 

John the Baptist died before the Cross...and at the time of his death he was a heir of Abraham and he was gathered to Abraham to where he was, in Sheol. Lucky for him he was not in Hades. This is what was in place at the time of his death before the Cross...what happened to them after the Cross it is another discussion...this is it at his death John the Baptist was gathered to Abraham his Patriarch.  

If your point is that the Apostles fulfill the requirement of Rev 20:4-5 I would say that's probably not true since Rev 20 is in the context of when Jesus arrives from heaven and the end of the age. 

This idea doesn't preclude the resurrection of the Apostles for a special purpose under the promise Jesus made to them about judging the 12 tribes in the kingdom. This is a parallel idea to the 144,000 enjoying a special status with Jesus that none of great, innumerable company about the throne in Rev 7 share in.

I'm asking if it's reasonable to include everyone, from all time that died in Christ, in the first resurrection when the primary resurrection participants look like a very specific group: 

Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And THEY CAME TO LIFE and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. - Rev 20:4

So here, 'they came to life' includes all who died in Christ from all time, and not just the ones specified as being in the time when they faced down the power and authority of the beast?

 

[Diaste]

30 minutes ago, Selah7 said:

I’ve posted much scripture for you, but you are never convinced by any of it.  You need to study these questions you have on your own, Diaste.   and with the guidance of the Holy Spirit.  Dig it out, okay?  Let God reveal His Word to you.  

Now I’ve got my own Bible study awaiting.  God bless.

But none of it answered the question. You, as do the others in the discussion, post many scriptures of the fact of the coming resurrection of everyone. That's something I agree with, we will all be resurrected at some point. 

I'm not asking if there is a resurrection of everyone, I'm asking whom is resurrected and when. From Rev 7, scripture says the ones about throne came out of the GT. From Rev 20 we see the beheaded for their testimony, the refusers of the mark and forced worship are the ones who came to life and ruled and reigned with Christ. Neither passage includes everyone from all time. I get that flies in the face of contemporary understanding, but there it is.

I would think these are three distinct groups and so any who were beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and God would then be in this group as well, from all time. But Rev 20:4-5 may only be in the context of the end of the age when the beast's power and authority is absolute. 

So the question remains unanswered. "Whom is raised up in the primary resurrection beyond what is written, if anyone?"

[Selah7]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

I would think

 I said “I believe” and you didn’t like it.  Yet you say “I would think.” 

[Retrobyter]

On 11/19/2022 at 7:52 AM, Diaste said:

@Retrobyter @Selah7 @Uriah @truth7t7 @abcdef @JoeCanada

A thought came up:

Is it important for the primary resurrection to include 2000 years of the dead in Christ raised up, or is it important to inherit eternal life?

In other words is it the ruling and reigning with Christ that's the important factor in the interpretation of whom shares in the primary resurrection?

Why would that be?

What should be the most important factor?

Shalom, Diaste.

We have several axes involved in this primary resurrection of Revelation 20:4-6. 

First, note that the resurrection itself is not found in these verses. It has already occurred by this point in time.

Now, the first axis is whether one is justified by God or remains unjust still. This is what many refer to as the "salvation issue." Is a person "born again," or is he an unbeliever?

This is the issue that determines in which of these resurrections one will participate.

---

The second axis is whether one has suffered for the Messiah's sake or not. If one has, then he or she will be among those who reign with the Messiah for showing unfailing obedience to God and unfailing love and allegiance to the Messiah. If one has NOT, then he or she might find himself or herself a dog-catcher in Podunk Holler!

What I mean is that rewards for those within His Kingdom will be based upon one's wise business deals and one's ability to reign over and judge others.

---

In the first axis, the issue is whether one is a good seed of wheat, or a tare, a look-alike weed - a child of the Kingdom, or a child of the wicked one.

In the second axis, the issue is whether one produces 30x, 60x, or 100x in the harvest, or maybe he or she doesn't produce anything at all! In some parables, it was the difference between someone utilizing the talents given to him or her, and hiding the talent in a "safe place," doing nothing with it!

Doing good deeds falls in THIS category - THIS axis, not in the first.

So, I guess what I'm saying is this: WHEN the resurrection occurs is based upon whether one is a "child of the Kingdom" or one is a "child of the wicked one."

WITHIN the first resurrection, HOW WELL a person has suffered for the Messiah will determine his or her status within the Kingdom. Will he or she reign with the Messiah, and if so, to what extent? Over how much will he or she reign?

Anyway, that's my take.

[abcdef]

On 11/20/2022 at 4:24 AM, Diaste said:

Sure there is; the primary resurrection and the 2nd death 1000 years later. It's not possible Christ resurrected all at His resurrection as the primary resurrection only happens when He returns as 1 Cor 15:20-26 and 1 Thess 4 tells us. Since He has not yet returned 1 Cor 15:20-26 shows 3 resurrections. 

Not pretrib. I don't subscribe to anything pretrib. I feel any preacher or teacher that is pretrib is tainted in every teaching beyond the message of salvation by Christ Jesus alone and none other.

IF. But 1 Cor 15 is clear about two and alludes to the 3rd where death is destroyed, parallel to Rev 20:11-15 where death is thrown into the lake of fire.

Perhaps they are symbolic. 

So in the end we still have the question:

"Is the group in Rev 7 about the throne, and the group in Rev 20 who came to life, only from GT and faced the power and reign of beast? Or is this group from all time?"

Rev 14:4, calls the 144000 "first fruits" to God and the Lamb.

If they are the first fruits, and seen in heaven with Jesus and John, 

Which resurrection did they participate in, to be the first fruits?

--

[truth7t7]

17 hours ago, Diaste said:

This will be the last time I'm going to go down this road in this vein.

"

Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

5The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years were complete. This is the first resurrection.

The only group in evidence here is the one beheaded for their testimony and in addition to, the one who refused the mark and refused to worship the beast and the image. No others are mentioned here as coming to life in the primary resurrection and ruling and reigning with Christ for 1000 years. 

If you can show where another group is in the 1st resurrection, with the same specific language as in Rev 20:4-5, great. If not, then it's time to change your thinking.

This doesn't tell us who takes part in the primary resurrection as in Rev 20:4-5. It's just the fact of a resurrection with a lack of important details like the ones found in Rev 20:4-5

Same as above. This is quoting Daniel 12.

Yes, the fact of the last day resurrection. No clues as to when the last day is, nor whom participates in the primary resurrection. So that again doesn't answer the question I'm asking; Who takes part in the Primary Resurrection? Only those in Rev 20:4-5 is the only direct evidence I see.

More of the same. 

You can't just ignore Rev 20:4-5.

Luke 20:38KJV

38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.

John saw "Souls" they lived and reigned in the spiritual Greek word "Zao", then in verse five it states "The Rest Of The Dead"

Before your eyes scripture is telling you they are all "Dead" physically

The event of the resurrection Greek "Anastasis" didn't take place, they are waiting in the spiritual for the "First Resurrection" to take place, and you have been shown it happens at the second coming on the last day

Jesus Is The Lord

Revelation 20:4-5KJV

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Edited November 22, 2022 by truth7t7

[Diaste]

5 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

Luke 20:38KJV

38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.

John saw "Souls" they lived and reigned in the spiritual Greek word "Zao", then in verse five it states "The Rest Of The Dead"

Before your eyes scripture is telling you they are all "Dead" physically

Yeah, I get that. They are all physically dead or when they are raised it wouldn't be a resurrection. 

5 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

The event of the resurrection Greek "Anastasis" didn't take place, they are waiting in the spiritual for the "First Resurrection" to take place, and you have been shown it happens at the second coming on the last day

Yes. The primary resurrection does happen at the 2nd coming; but last day? What or when is the last day? I don't think we'll have the last day till the 1000 years are complete. How would one measure the 1000 year time span? How would one know when the feast of Tabernacles happens so one could go up year on year to worship, unless there are still years and months and days during the 1000 years? 

And the 2nd coming happens before the 1000 years begins so the last day[in a literal sense] happens well after the 2nd coming. This also fits with all the prophecies in the NT about people being raised on the last day parallel to Rev 20:4-6 where we see a 2nd resurrection, some to life, some to death, after the 1000 years.

5 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

Jesus Is The Lord

Revelation 20:4-5KJV

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Right. "This is the first resurrection." has as the object verse 4. If not then the first resurrection would happen after the 'rest of the dead lived not again till the 1000 years were finished' which doesn't follow logically. 

So the 1st resurrection does not consist of 'the rest of the dead' it's focused on verse 4 and the ones who overcame the beast. Two resurrections, 1000 years apart, one at the 2nd coming, one after the millennium.

[Diaste]

13 hours ago, abcdef said:

Rev 14:4, calls the 144000 "first fruits" to God and the Lamb.

If they are the first fruits, and seen in heaven with Jesus and John, 

Which resurrection did they participate in, to be the first fruits?

--

I don't have a great answer for that. Nothing I have read or heard explains or answers your question; the same question I have about 144,000. 

To speculate a bit...

It could be the 144,000 are among those in the 1st resurrection but enjoying a special status based on their unique attributes. 

It's possible there is a resurrection or two we don't know about. Just because we can read about the primary resurrection doesn't mean that's only one, or type of one, that occurs when Jesus arrives. I see nothing in scripture that says, "There are two, and only two, resurrections." 

The two witnesses raised from the dead and taken up is a resurrection in itself.

Maybe the 144,000 are the very first to be raised from the dead at the 2nd coming. Maybe they aren't dead at the 2nd coming and they are the very first living to be gathered by the angels and transformed and translated at the arrival of Jesus. 

This last one is the more appealing to me but again, it's speculation; there just isn't a ton of info on the 144,000.

 

[Diaste]

20 hours ago, Selah7 said:

 I said “I believe” and you didn’t like it.  Yet you say “I would think.” 

What I said was:

22 hours ago, Diaste said:

I would think these are three distinct groups and so any who were beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and God would then be in this group as well, from all time. But Rev 20:4-5 may only be in the context of the end of the age when the beast's power and authority is absolute. 

Which is comparing what could look like three distinct groups[one group beheaded, one group that refused the mark, and one group refusing to worship the beast and/or the image] with what some may think is one group that is not only beheaded but also refused to worship and refused the mark. 

One idea is that all three attributes must exist in each individual that rules and reigns, the other is in addition to and not a Boolean qualifier. As in, one can refuse the mark but not be beheaded and still be in the primary resurrection and rule and reign with Christ.

I think about this and which idea may be correct as it's not quite clear. I lean toward the latter as it makes more sense to me. 

This isn't me saying I believe the primary resurrection is all the dead in Christ from all time when there is no evidence for that idea. I'm trying to understand the evidence presented, not making stuff up I want to believe.