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The Correct Chronology of Revelation Chapters 6 and 7


kenny2212

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We see the rapture in Rev. 6:12-17. This portion of scripture is cross-referenced in Matt. 24:29-31. 

But it seems the chronology of the ending parts of Rev. 6 and the whole of Rev. 7 is not right. 

The rapture happens in Rev. 6:12-17, the 144,000 israelites are sealed in 7:1-8, and there is the great multitude (who were raptured in Chapter 6) in Rev. 7:9-17.

Now some people might say "Shouldn't the great multitude come after the rapture event? And not after sealing of the 144000?

The chronology is arranged in the bible the way it is because of 2 reasons -

1. The sealing of the 144000 comes after the rapture event because it keeps in line with God's overriding emotion (towards those on earth; God still loves those left behind though but their salvation must come at a very great price - refusing the MOTB and refusing to worship the beast and risk being killed) at this point in time - Wrath; And of course to those who were raptured and the 144000 - Love (1 Thess. 5:9). God keeps the 144000 in the world to show those left behind what they would have enjoyed if they had chosen him. I know the 144000 are kept in the world to evangelize but also to show the world what they are missing... I mean the world already has the bible and happenings. Also I believe the 144000 will know they are sealed. Just as the Holy Spirit bears witness our spirits that we are children of God, they will have a kind of witness.

 Rev. 7:2-4 (NKJV) - 2 Then I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God. And he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3 saying, “Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.” 4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed...

2. The silence in heaven is added to by the supposed more silence by heaven (note the words "in" and "by") (from the perspective of those on the earth) while the great multitude are worshipping. Prompted by this prolonged silence, the world MIGHT say what happened was an alien abduction not the rapture (Rev. 7:9-17 - 8:1)

Any questions or comments?

Edited by kenny2212
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YES, I DO, WILL YOU?



Do you see what is happening in verse 11?  Do you see what they are told?   Do you see a RAPTURE being spoken of?  What is being said about THEIR FELLOWSERVANTS?  Any word on fellow servants being 'transported away from the earth'?  WHY NOT? 

Why is it GOD speaks in detail of all HIS MIRACLES and wonders,  in fairly vivid detail sometimes in EXACTING details in others,  yet when it comes to what would be the MOST SUPERNATURAL MIRACLE HE WILL HAVE PERFORMED in 6000 years  there is not one single verse to which it is hinted at? 

Why are ALL the verses,  verses that only 'could be used' to support such a thing.  Why is there NOT ONE verse that when speaking of Christ's return gives the teeniest tinniest hint that there are 2?  Why is everyone written like there is only one?  Doesn't this fall under PRIVATE INTERPRETATION?   HOW is it ISAIAH 61 speaking to the 2 Advents is NOT FALSE if in fact there is another?  

How is it CHRIST who said 'I have foretold you all things' NEVER FORETOLD US THIS?  When asked about the end times NOT ONE WORD.  


SO here we are and YOU SAY,  (without a 'verse' to back it up) that RAPTURE is being spoken of, how are we to believe such a thing?  

Revelation 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

IF INDEED,  THEY WAITING FOR 'THE CHURCH',  how can it, AS IT ALWAYS IS, be passed over WITHOUT A SINGLE THOUGHT WORD OR DEED.  NOT EVEN A NOD.  JUST LIKE EVERY SINGLE PLACE THAT IT IS NEVER SPOKEN OF.  

If this is NOT a doctrine of man that makes void the words of GOD, please tell me what is?

 

Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Doesn't this more fit with WOE TO YOU ON THE EARTH, (since SACKCLOTH is for 'mourning') the angels say when Satan is kicked out of heaven? So what follows?  The church being raptured?  YOU say we should be seeing rapture right?  LET'S SEE.

 

Revelation 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

AGAIN wrong direction is being spoken of?  Doesn't this more follow (again, not a mention of a 'rapture' when there should be)

Hebrews 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things that that of Abel.

Hebrews 12:25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

Hebrews 12:26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.


So the sun is become sackcloth. Are you saying that 'heaven departed as a scroll' is the rapture?  Or is the church to be 'put away'

 

Revelation 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

Revelation 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

Revelation 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:


THIS will be the end of the FELLOWSEVANTS being killed, correct?  Only the alive and remaining will be able to STAND, correct?  So I don't know what you see WRITTEN that says anything about a HOUSE DIVIDED and half going off to heaven.  

Revelation 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

What does SEALING do in someone's forehead?  Faith in the power of the Lord, knowledge the gospel armor which dresses and prepares you to stand, withstand, overcome, endure to the end, withstand the fiery darts of Satan, delivers and keeps you from evil



SO FAR you have MANAGED TO REVERSE and to BUILT BACK UP THE PARTITION THE LORD BROUGHT DOWN.  Have you not read?

Ephesians 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

Ephesians 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

Ephesians 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

Ephesians 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

Ephesians 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace

NOT 2, NOT ONE FOR GOING TO FEAST AND THE OTHER  FOR STAYING FOR PUNISHMENT TO SHOW WHAT WAS MISSED

Ephesians 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

Ephesians 2:17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

Ephesians 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

Ephesians 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

Ephesians 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

Ephesians 2:21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

Ephesians 2:22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.


QUITE A BIT OF THE WORDS OF GOD BEING MADE VOID WOULDN'T YOU SAY? 



AND WITH THIS RAPTURE TEACHING COMES IN THE PROBLEM OF

1.  NOT SUFFERING WITH CHRIST  which mean NO BEING GLORIFIED TOGETHER NO GLORY IF MISS THE 

2.  A HOUSE DIVIDED CAN NOT STAND

3.  HOPE SEEN IS NO LONGER HOPE

4  FAITH COMES FROM HEARING AND ALL THOSE WHO HAVE THE WORDS OF GOD ARE TAKEN AWAY

 IF THERE WERE TO BE A PRE TRIB RAPTURE THESE WOULD NO LONGER HOLD TRUE, WOULD THEY?

Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

Romans 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Romans 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

Romans 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

Romans 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

Romans 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

Romans 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

Romans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Romans 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

Romans 8:25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

 

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On 6/7/2022 at 11:11 AM, kenny2212 said:

The rapture happens in Rev. 6:12-17, the 144,000 israelites are sealed in 7:1-8, and there is the great multitude (who were raptured in Chapter 6) in Rev. 7:9-17.

Now some people might say "Shouldn't the great multitude come after the rapture event? And not after sealing of the 144000?  ...

Any questions or comments?

I learned many years ago (don't remember the book/author) that Revelation consists of 7 different changes in view between heavenly and earthly events.

In the case here, Rev. 6:1b through 7:8 all are events that John was shown will take place on earth.

Then John's view is shifted to events that will take place in heaven, and he is shown the raptured great multitude.

However, just because John saw the great multitude after he saw the 144,000 does not mean that the events of the second view followed the first in time. These two events will occur essentially simultaneously. They just could not be seen by John simultaneously.

Rev. 1:7 Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will wail because of Him. Even so, Amen.

When every eye sees Him, the faithful will be raptured, the blind but righteous Jews will repent and be sealed, and the unbelieving of the nations will be terrified and hide themselves from the sight. All essentially at the same time.

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On 6/7/2022 at 12:11 PM, kenny2212 said:

We see the rapture in Rev. 6:12-17. This portion of scripture is cross-referenced in Matt. 24:29-31. 

 

Neither is the Rapture, Rev. 6:12-17 is  not even God's Wrath per se, it PROPHESIES of God's soon to come Wrath, which falls in Rev. 8 via the Trumpet Judgments. But it lasts for 42 months, so in Matt. 24:29-31 it paints a picture of Jesus' Second Coming just after the 1260 days of Wrath which is only STARTED by the Asteroid in Revelation chapter 8, that makes the Sun and Moon go dark because of the asteroid. IMMEDIATLY AFTER these 1260 days, Jesus indeed returns. BUT...that is not the Rapture, that is the Second Coming. The Rapture is Pre Trib.

On 6/7/2022 at 12:11 PM, kenny2212 said:

But it seems the chronology of the ending parts of Rev. 6 and the whole of Rev. 7 is not right. 

 

Well until one understands the meaning of everything in Revelation, he has no chance of understanding the Chronological Order of the book of Revelation.

On 6/7/2022 at 12:11 PM, kenny2212 said:

The rapture happens in Rev. 6:12-17, the 144,000 israelites are sealed in 7:1-8, and there is the great multitude (who were raptured in Chapter 6) in Rev. 7:9-17.

Now some people might say "Shouldn't the great multitude come after the rapture event? And not after sealing of the 144000?

The Rapture happens in Rev. 4:1, we see the Church in Heaven in Rev. 4:4 AND Rev. 5:9-10. Then Jesus starts opening this Seven Sealed Scroll which has the Judgements of God in them. As he takes off or loosens one Seal in Heaven, he then Prophesies about SOON TO COME EVENTS, which can only come once all 7 Seals are taken off this Scroll, thus only then can the scroll be UNROLLED and the Judgments brought forth.

1821474663_seven-seals(2).jpg.e14e96e35a5bdb7f7d316a5a537db28e.jpg

So, the first four Seals are the Horses, the 5th Seal are the Martyrs of those who come to Christ during the 70th week, after the Pre Trib Rapture. This, both are Jesus telling us what will happen once the Anti-Christs soon to come rule starts. He will 1.) Conquer 2.) Bring Wars 3.) his wars bring Famine 4.) His rule brings Sickness and death. 5.) His tyranny will see him murder born again  Christians and Jews who did not repent and flee Judea, AND all men who refuse to acknowledge him as their god !!BUT...This all starts in Rev. 8, as the Asteroid hits, he uses that as COVER to go forth conquering Israel and the whole Mediterranean Sea Region. Not the whole world, the two Americas will basically be destroyed by the Asteroid (1/3). Thus, he needs not worry about the Great and Powerful USA and her Nukes, which are a shell of herself anyway by that time, after the Rapture, and after the Economic Collapse that is coming before the Rapture as in NOW (Biden job is to destroy the world economy).

The 6th Seal is ANOTHER PROPHESY, it is Jesus saying, when the 7th Seal is finally opened THIS WILL HAPPEN, and he foretells of the Sun and Moon going DARK and God's Great Wrath falling. Now to find this go to Rev. 8, the Fire FALLS in Trump #1 the Asteroid IMPACTS in Trump #2 the POISONOUS FALLOUT happens in Trump #3 and the Sun and Moon GO DARK in Trumpet #4, which is SEAL #6 coming to pass !! Just like Trumpet #4 is Joel 2:31 COMING TO PASS !! (It chills me to have been chosen by God to understand all this). 

So, Rev. 6 happens after the Rapture (Rev. 4:1) and BEFORE the 1260 Middle of the Week Wrath of God (Rev. 8) and IN BETWEEN at the 1290, we see Israel(144,000) Fleeing Judea in Rev. chapter 7 !! Then we get a glimpse of the Pre Trib Raptured Church IN HEAVEN in Rev. 7:9-17.

On 6/7/2022 at 12:11 PM, kenny2212 said:

2. The silence in heaven is added to by the supposed more silence by heaven (note the words "in" and "by") (from the perspective of those on the earth) while the great multitude are worshipping. Prompted by this prolonged silence, the world MIGHT say what happened was an alien abduction not the rapture (Rev. 7:9-17 - 8:1)

The SILENCE is because the Judgment is about to FALL ON MANKIND, and no one in Heaven rejoices at Judgment on mankind. In Seals 1-6 we hear Jesus. In Seal #7 Jesus says nothing because Judgment is now at hand. The 7th Seal is over in Rev. chapter 8 because the Seals are PROPHESYING God's Coming Judgments.

If you had a Closet Door that had 7 locks on it, and you also had 7 gifts you had received fir your birthday behind that locked closet door. You could invite your friends over, and as you opened each lock, you could describe a different gift, after the 6th lock, everyone has heard the gifts described, BUT.....the door is still locked, there is one lock left on the closet door, no one has SEEN ANY GIFT YET !! Then, when you open the 7th and final lock, would you describe another gift, or simply STAY SILENT and open the door ?

Jesus has nothing left to say Judgment is now at hand via the 7 Trumpet Judgments.

Amen, even so, Glory to God, Come Lord Come.

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On 6/7/2022 at 7:11 PM, kenny2212 said:

We see the rapture in Rev. 6:12-17. This portion of scripture is cross-referenced in Matt. 24:29-31. 

But it seems the chronology of the ending parts of Rev. 6 and the whole of Rev. 7 is not right. 

The rapture happens in Rev. 6:12-17, the 144,000 israelites are sealed in 7:1-8, and there is the great multitude (who were raptured in Chapter 6) in Rev. 7:9-17.

Now some people might say "Shouldn't the great multitude come after the rapture event? And not after sealing of the 144000?

The chronology is arranged in the bible the way it is because of 2 reasons -

1. The sealing of the 144000 comes after the rapture event because it keeps in line with God's overriding emotion (towards those on earth; God still loves those left behind though but their salvation must come at a very great price - refusing the MOTB and refusing to worship the beast and risk being killed) at this point in time - Wrath; And of course to those who were raptured and the 144000 - Love (1 Thess. 5:9). God keeps the 144000 in the world to show those left behind what they would have enjoyed if the had chosen him. I know the 144000 are kept in the world to evangelize but also to show the world what they are missing... I mean the world already has the bible and happenings. Also I believe the 144000 will know they are sealed. Just as the Holy Spirit bears witness our spirits that we are children of God, they will have a kind of witness.

 Rev. 7:2-4 (NKJV) - 2 Then I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God. And he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3 saying, “Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.” 4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed...

2. The silence in heaven is added to by the supposed more silence by heaven (note the words "in" and "by") (from the perspective of those on the earth) while the great multitude are worshipping. Prompted by this prolonged silence, the world MIGHT say what happened was an alien abduction not the rapture (Rev. 7:9-17 - 8:1)

Any questions or comments?

The prophets of old, and Romans Chapter 1 predict God's wrath revealed from heaven on ungodliness. Revelation 6 is the start of this. The four horsemen do correspond to Matthew 24 and are described as "the beginning of pangs". The saints under the altar shows that the Rapture has NOT taken place. The altar in question is NOT the golden altar for three reasons; (i) No blood was to be shed on this altar, (ii) the altar is for the incense to be burned which is Christ carrying the prayers of the New Testament believers to God, and (iii) the golden altar is hard against the Holy of Holies where God dwells.

The altar is the altar of sacrifice. It is placed in the Outer Court, is Acacia Wood overlaid with BRASS and must be fixed to the earth so that man's nakedness is not shown (Ex.20.26). Christ was sacrificed on the earth, and these martyrs were sacrificed on the earth. Dead men are naked (2nd Cor.5:1-5), so the martyrs of Revelation 6 are still in Hades under the altar and thus under the earth. Lastly, it is their SOULS that cry out out. they do not have their resurrection bodies yet. So they must be given white robes. In resurrection you must "prepare your own garment" (Rev.19:7-8).

The signs of heaven are the same as Matthew 24:28-31, but that is not the Rapture. The Rapture is when Christ, Who is HID in the clouds, comes as a thief and takes what is precious. Matthew 24:28-31 is Christ bursting forth FROM the clouds to be "revealed" (Apokalypsis) to men on earth and to touch down on Mount Olives. He is not as a "Thief" but is as "Lightning" . The gathering of the "elect" can only be Israel. (i) Only Israel was scattered, (ii) only Israel was scattered to the "four winds", and (iii) only Israel is predicted to be gathered from the "four winds".

Chapter 6 ends with an explanation. "God's wrath"! It covers the the period leading up to Armageddon, the birth pangs, and is completed by Armageddon. However, John see these things in the future for it is "God's wrath IS COME". Chapter 7 begins, "AFTER THESE THINGS" (plural). Thus, what John saw was also future and future to all things of Chapter 6 - not just Armageddon. And if so, then Chapter 7 starts at the birth pangs as well.

In Romans 9 and 11 a Jewish Remnant is predicted. The purpose of this Remnant is to fulfill Deuteronomy 30:1-5. God knew that Israel would reject Messiah and thus, if Messiah and His grace are refused, Israel still had a way for National restoration - via the COVENANTS. Deuteronomy 28 outlines all that will befall Israel for breaking the Law, and Chapter 30 says that when all the curses have come upon Israel - ending with dispersion - God will restore them IF they turn back to the Law. I say again, the Law does not SAVE Israel from the consequences of not believing in Jesus, but God has (i) Covenants with Israel, and (ii) made promises via the prophets. God is a realist. He knew that Israel would not turn. He even knew that they would embrace the Beast. So, just as in Abraham's time with Sodom, God will accept a REMNANT as proxy for the whole nation. Revelation 7:1-8 is the Jewish REMNANT that will turn back to the Covenant of Law (as per Deuteronomy 30:1-5).

This Remnant is REPRESENTATIVE of Israel. Therefore they are named by a representative number 12 X 12 X 1,000 - 12 being the number of God's people. Being representative, some Tribes may not be there - as Dan. The Great Tribulation of three and one half years, 1260 days or 42 months will kill about two thirds of the world's population. In order to preserve this REMNANT, they are SEALED. The SEAL is not salvation. It is so that the mechanisms of the Great Tribulation do not kill them (Rev.9:4). That they are still called Tribes of Israel indicates that they DO NOT BELIEVE IN CHRIST, for the New Testament says that there are NO JEWS in the Church. their ethnicity is passed and they are new creatures (2nd Cor.5:17, Gal.3:28, Col.3:11).

The innumerable company of Revelation 7 is the slothful and apostate Church. In at least FOUR warnings the apostate Church is told that they will not be removed from the Great Tribulation if they do not repents. They are:

  1. Philippians 3:8-14. There, the "out-resurrection" (lit. Gk.) and the "Upward- call" are a PRIZE
  2. Luke 21:36 says that a man must be "counted WORTHY" to miss the Great Tribulation and stand (in the clouds) before Jesus
  3. Revelation 3:10 says that BECAUSE certain Church people overcame, they will be KEPT from the "hour" of trial
  4. Revelation 18:4 says that if Christians are in Babylon's commercial system, they will partake of her plagues

Of seven Churches, five are rebuked, one is promised something and only one is commended. That is, representatively, over 80% of the Church is apostate by the time of Laodicea. This "falling away" is predicted by Paul in 2nd Thessalonians 2:3. This huge number of Christians will be left behind to face the Tribulation. The heat and dryness will ripen them. They will come out the Tribulation (i) having had to wash their garments - because they were dirty, (ii) with tears of suffering, (iii) having not drunk of the Living Waters, and (iv) NOT being crowned co-kings with Christ. they will be purged by the Tribulation for "service in God's House" but not His Kingdom.

There is no special chronology in Revelation 6 and 7. It reveals events that will happen over the last years of the age.

  1. The Seals are meant for ungodliness. The fifth seal threatens God's vengeance for the martyrs
  2. The martyrs calling for vengeance show that the age of grace is over
  3. The Israeli REMNANT of 7:1-8 is how and why they survive the Great Tribulation
  4. The innumerable company of 7:9-17 is the apostate Church surviving the Great Tribulation but with pain
     
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22 hours ago, AdHoc said:

The prophets of old, and Romans Chapter 1 predict God's wrath revealed from heaven on ungodliness. Revelation 6 is the start of this. The four horsemen do correspond to Matthew 24 and are described as "the beginning of pangs". The saints under the altar shows that the Rapture has NOT taken place.

Again, not understanding the timing of the Rapture will take us down wrong paths. The Saints under the Altar are those killed after the Pre Trib Rapture. That is why they are told they must wait until all of their brothers have been killed in like manner before they can gain their vengeance. Thus only the pre trib raptured saints can be seen in Rev. 7:9-17. So which is it? Do those under the altar have to remain there until the Beasts rule ends and are then  finally raised and judged after Jesus returns (Rev. 20:4) or do we just fit in parts we like and ignore others and say that those seen in Rev. 7:9-17 are those saints under the altar, even though they can't be unless God is lying?  Those saints must wait until all of the brothers have been  killed in like manner (translation).......they must wait until the Beasts 42 month rule is over before they can gain vengeance, we see that timing in Rev. 20:4.

The Four Horsemen are all the Anti-Christ, as is the the Seal. And they are not REAL TIME EVENTS, they are Jesus prophesying what's about to befall mankind when the 7th Seal is opened. That is why the 6th Seal matches the first four Trumps. The Asteroid/mountain that hits eventually makes the earth go dark because all of the smoke and debris filters out the suns light.

The Prophecy

Rev. 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake(asteroid impact); and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

The Actual Event or Wrath of God that fulfills the Prophecy

Rev. 8:7  The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up. {Fire from the disintegrating asteroid splays the earths surface before impact. This cause trees to catch fire}

8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea:{The Asteroid makes IMPACT/its as a huge "Earthquake".}  and the third part of the sea became blood; 9 And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.

10 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven,{Same Asteroid, but this is the FALLOUT) burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;11 And the name of the star is called Wormwood {Poisonous FALLOUT}: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter. 

{{{{I think the "THIRD" in all of these verses is like unto "Google Maps" it is designating to us IN CODE where this Asteroid is going to hit, in the Pacific Ocean that has 1/3 of all the water on the face of the earth and North and South America which has 1/3 of all the Landmass on this earth. But that's just an educated guess}}}}

12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise. {{ The fires from the Asteroid impact dims the sun and moon. Thus also fulfills Joel 2:31}}

It is very clear the Birth Pangs begin in the 1st Century AD along with all of the other birth pangs, as described to the disciples, including their deaths.

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11 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Again, not understanding the timing of the Rapture will take us down wrong paths. The Saints under the Altar are those killed after the Pre Trib Rapture. That is why they are told they must wait until all of their brothers have been killed in like manner before they can gain their vengeance. Thus only the pre trib raptured saints can be seen in Rev. 7:9-17. So which is it? Do those under the altar have to remain there until the Beasts rule ends and are then  finally raised and judged after Jesus returns (Rev. 20:4) or do we just fit in parts we like and ignore others and say that those seen in Rev. 7:9-17 are those saints under the altar, even though they can't be unless God is lying?  Those saints must wait until all of the brothers have been  killed in like manner (translation).......they must wait until the Beasts 42 month rule is over before they can gain vengeance, we see that timing in Rev. 20:4.

The Four Horsemen are all the Anti-Christ, as is the the Seal. And they are not REAL TIME EVENTS, they are Jesus prophesying what's about to befall mankind when the 7th Seal is opened. That is why the 6th Seal matches the first four Trumps. The Asteroid/mountain that hits eventually makes the earth go dark because all of the smoke and debris filters out the suns light.

The Prophecy

Rev. 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake(asteroid impact); and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

The Actual Event or Wrath of God that fulfills the Prophecy

Rev. 8:7  The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up. {Fire from the disintegrating asteroid splays the earths surface before impact. This cause trees to catch fire}

8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea:{The Asteroid makes IMPACT/its as a huge "Earthquake".}  and the third part of the sea became blood; 9 And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.

10 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven,{Same Asteroid, but this is the FALLOUT) burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;11 And the name of the star is called Wormwood {Poisonous FALLOUT}: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter. 

{{{{I think the "THIRD" in all of these verses is like unto "Google Maps" it is designating to us IN CODE where this Asteroid is going to hit, in the Pacific Ocean that has 1/3 of all the water on the face of the earth and North and South America which has 1/3 of all the Landmass on this earth. But that's just an educated guess}}}}

12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise. {{ The fires from the Asteroid impact dims the sun and moon. Thus also fulfills Joel 2:31}}

It is very clear the Birth Pangs begin in the 1st Century AD along with all of the other birth pangs, as described to the disciples, including their deaths.

I appreciate your take on the matter. But you did not build a case. On a debate forum your posting is your argument. For instance you state that the martyrs under the altar are slain after the Pre-Tribulation rapture. But you do not show this from the text. Added to this, you do not take into consideration that the Two Witnesses of Revelation 11 must not wait for anybody to be raptured after death and resurrection. The only wait is before the event described in 2nd Thessalonians 4 - the Trumpet and the shout. This wait is the whole Church age. You must at least give a reason why a martyr must wait for resurrection and rapture

The events of Chapter 6 and 7 are confined to the close of the age. In Matthew Chapter 24 our Lord answered a threefold question posed in verse 3;

  1. When will these things be?
  2. What is the sign of your coming?
  3. What is the sign of the end of the age?

The birth pangs are within this answer - that is - at the end of the age. And so it is in nature. the birth pangs come just before the contractions. I believe that you inadvertently agree with me because you give the four horsemen as Anti-Christ. The Beast, as scripture calls him, only appears at the end of the age.

But ... as you said in another posting ... a lot hangs on the article "THE Great Tribulation". There are a few indicators, none of them conclusive, that the innumerable company did go through THE Great Tribulation

 9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; 10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. 11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, 12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. 16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. 17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes

  1. The palms in their hands. Palm were a royal greeting for an ARRIVING King. Jesus only ARRIVES at thee end of the age
  2. Their garments were "washed". That means that they were dirty. That is, their works were evil. Luke 21:35-36 shows that the evil, or those "not accounted worthy" will pass through THE Great Tribulation
  3. The Lord promises that Christians will suffer tribulation. But the term "GREAT TRIBULATION" is used exclusively in connection with the end of the age. In Revelation 2:22, where our Lord threatens a Church with "Great Tribulation" it is "when He COMES" (v.25)
  4. The saints of Revelation 7 had no "living fountains of water". It seems that this was by their own choice for the Lamb will lead them there when the "Great Tribulation" is over. Christ, the "Living Fountain of water" is always available for those who want Him

Not one proof is enough by itself, but at least 4 or 5 things pointing in the same direction will move a good detective.

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On 6/18/2022 at 7:38 AM, AdHoc said:

I appreciate your take on the matter. But you did not build a case. On a debate forum your posting is your argument. For instance you state that the martyrs under the altar are slain after the Pre-Tribulation rapture. But you do not show this from the text.

I can tell you about a future event that happens over a two week period of time, in the month of July 2023 (If I have foreknowledge of things) then tell you this place will be burnt to smithereens, then tell you the owner (lets says the Smiths) of the place do not die. Then I can tell you invaders will burn it down. Then I can tell you the Smiths will be at a place with a lots of rocks and in a huge crater.

Lets just say you should understand that the Smiths house will at a future point in time be invaded by some thugs while they go on a vacation at the Grand Canyon without me having to spell it out. The same goes for the Pre Trib Rapture, tbh, its getting to the point where I just shake my head, this is 2 + 2 = 4 stuff. All anyone has to do is ADD OT ALL UP, the TIMING TELLS are where it is at. People in Heaven marrying Jesus in Rev. 19, people seen in Heave  in Rev. 4:4, 5:9-10, can't even be there without a Rapture. And we now that NO ONE from the 70th week can get Raptured, Jesus says so in the 5th Seal, he says all of those under the Altar, killed by the Beast, have to wait until ALL, not some more, not a few more, but ALL........ALL of their Brothers have been killed before they can get this vengeance they want, but against who? PEOPLE ON EARTH........So those living on earth at that SPECIFIC TIME PERIOD killed them !! So, those under the Altar at the 5th Seal can not be a part of the Church Age (who have already been Raptured anyway) because those people ON EARTH killed them.

Rev. 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

TIMING IS KEY !!

So, how can those under the Altar be those seen in Rev. 7:9-17 if they have to WAIT to get vengeance until ALL the brothers have been killed by this Anti-Christ/Beast? HINT it can not be them, NO ONE goes to heaven during the 70th week unless Jesus is a LIAR !! So, is there a TIMING TELL on when these get their vengeance? Yes, they can be seen in Rev. 20:4 AFTER Jesus' Second Coming, where those who DIED and REFUSED the Mark of the Beast are shown to get their due rewards, it is SPELLED OUT, it even names them as those who DID NOR TAKE THE MARK OF THE BEAST !! How much bigger of a sign do you need brother? This is what I am talkin about with the Smith Family juxtaposition. Everything is there, you refuse to see it.

Rev. 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them(The Church which WERE in Heaven now have JUDGMENT given unto us), and judgment was given unto them(know ye not that ye will judge angels): and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus(means they have not yet been JUDGED, how can they have been seen in Rev. 7:9-17? No way), and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

This can ONLY BE from the 70th week, this can not be ANYONE ELSE !!

ADD IT ALL UP.

If those from under the Altar can not be those seen in Rev. 7:9-17, then how did they get to Heaven? The Pre Trib Rapture is the ONLY WAY !! Add it all up, the TIMING is the KEY. 

I will start breaking these down in small segments, it seems people refuse to read larger posts but still want to try an debate. You see, I d show this, but it may be getting lost in the longer posts. Rev. 4:1 is the Rapture, Rev. 4:4 is the Church in Heaven before the Seas are opened. Rev. 5:9-10 is the Church. In Rev. 6, the 5th Seal Saints are specifically told they will not be taken to Heaven and will not get vengeance until all of their brother have been killed in like manner as they were. In Rev. 20:4 we plainly see those Saints getting judged only AFTER the Second Coming. So, how is that so hard to add up?

Those under the Altar are not judged after the Second Coming, so they can't be the ones see in Rev. 4, 5 and 7. Those those seen in chapters 4, 5 and 7 can ONLY be the Pre Trib Raptured Church because no one from the 70th week gets judged util Rev. 20:4 !! BOOM, BOOM, BOOM !! Add it all up !!

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On 6/18/2022 at 7:38 AM, AdHoc said:

Added to this, you do not take into consideration that the Two Witnesses of Revelation 11 must not wait for anybody to be raptured after death and resurrection. The only wait is before the event described in 2nd Thessalonians 4 - the Trumpet and the shout. This wait is the whole Church age. You must at least give a reason why a martyr must wait for resurrection and rapture

The Two-witnesses already have Glorious Bodies. They only die in order to give us humans a JUXTAPOSTION between their 1260 day period and the Beasts 1260 day period. There is no reason for them to doe except for that reason, its like North Star Navigation if you know what to look fir you can see it. So, they stay for 1260 dats and pray down every Plague from God, but then they die, well why not earlier? Because God would not let them be killed, well why are they killed after 1260 days of their Ministry? Because it is God's grand plan !! You se, if both the Beast and the Two-witnesses have 1260 day ORDAINED TIME PERIODS and the Two-witnesses die at the 2nd Woe just before the 7th Trump, which is the 3rd Woe, which is the 7 Vials, then if they both have 1260 day ordained time periods, what does them dying before the Beast dies mean? 

It means they have to also SHOW UP BEFORE the Beast Conquers Israel at the 1260 Middle of the week event. Remember what I said? TIMLINES are the KEYS to all End Time Eschatology !! So, now we can not only know the Two-witnesses start their preaching Before the east conquers Israel, we can also look for clues for them to show up earlier. And I did, and did, and did......until I understood it all via God's grace. 

Malachi 4:5 says Elijah shows up BEFORE the Great and Dreadful Day of the Lord(DOTL) in order to turn Israel back unto God. Then in Zechariah 13:8-9 we see 1/3 of the Jews REPENT but why? And we see one verse later the DOTL has arrived in Zechariah 14:1. So, the Jews REPENT just before the DOTL (1260 event). So, just before the 1260 event in which the Anti-Christ Conquers Israel and THE MANY [Mediterranean Sea Nations) we see the Jews repent so ADD OT ALL UP, Elijah is sent back before Beast becomes THE BEAST. That is why is 1260 days finishes up before the Beasts 1260 days. Ever hear of the 1335 Blessing? That is the Two-witnesses, they show up 1335 days before ALL THESE WONDERS END via Jesus' Second Coming. Thus they show up 75 days before the Beast, thus we know the 3rd Woe lasts for 75 days !! See how everything can be understood by JUXTAPOSITIONING TIMELINES? 

The 2 Thess. 2 Scriptures simply says te Church will DEPART before the Man of Sin comes and he will come BEFORE the Day of the Lord (God's Wrath) falls onto mankind. So, in essence, HEY Thessalonians, don't worry about being in the Day of the Lord (God's Wrath) the Anti-Christ must come before that day comes, and you will be Raptured or Depart your standing on this earth (Gathered unto Christ Jesus as verse 1 says)

The Martyrs were explained in the last post. The Two-witnesses only die to give us a clear TIMELINE between when he comes and when the Beasts comes. Just by using that TIMELINE I can tell you the 1290 can not be the Anti-Christ and that it thus has to be his right hand man, the False Prophet (a Jewish High Priest like unto Jason under Antiochus Epiphanes). I can tell you the 3rd Woe(7th Trump) lasts for 75 days. I can tell you how the Jews come to knw Jesus Christ, just before the 1260 Event and how 3-5 million get saved. Amen. 

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On 6/18/2022 at 7:38 AM, AdHoc said:

The events of Chapter 6 and 7 are confined to the close of the age. In Matthew Chapter 24 our Lord answered a threefold question posed in verse 3;

  1. When will these things be?
  2. What is the sign of your coming?
  3. What is the sign of the end of the age?

AGREED it is threefold. 1). Is THE TEMPLE. 2). The Sign of Jesus Second Coming in verse 31 (But Jesus also understand some Jews will be Messianic Jews and thus he also gives that version in verses 36-51) 3.)  The End of the Age is given, the Sun an Moon will go dark, then Jesus takes over and that ends the Age of mankind under Satan the liar. He is locked up and Jesus will be the King of kings and Lord of lords on David's Throne. 

On 6/18/2022 at 7:38 AM, AdHoc said:

The birth pangs are within this answer - that is - at the end of the age. And so it is in nature. the birth pangs come just before the contractions. I believe that you inadvertently agree with me because you give the four horsemen as Anti-Christ. The Beast, as scripture calls him, only appears at the end of the age.

Not really as you see it, but it is indeed there, but it is not a part of the 70th week. You see, verse 14 ENDS the Church Age Period, we are Raptured, the Birth Pangs END THERE (verse 14) the Baby is the 70th week !! Get it? Jesus referencing the Temple's Destruction in verses 4-6. The End of the Age of man, and he tells us when the Church must be raptured, when the Gospel has gone unto the ends of the world, he says then THE END will come, and that last 7 years is the End of the Age of Man. Then he gives is the lo down on those goings on via troubles etc. etc. in verses 15-31. Then of course that all ends with his Second Coming in verse 31. So, indeed verses 15-31 are the troubles, Anti-Christ and False Prophet, but not verses 4-14, you are misdiagnosing those verses. That is indeed the Birth Pangs, the BABY is the 70th week, those signs BIRTH the 70th wee troubles. Later signs during the 70th week usher in the Second Coming.  The AoD, the troubles as never before seen, the sun and moon going dark etc. etc. 

On 6/18/2022 at 7:38 AM, AdHoc said:

But ... as you said in another posting ... a lot hangs on the article "THE Great Tribulation". There are a few indicators, none of them conclusive, that the innumerable company did go through THE Great Tribulation

I think my first point made this an unwinnable point fir all but us Pre Trib Rapture guys tbh. 

On 6/18/2022 at 7:38 AM, AdHoc said:
  1. The palms in their hands. Palm were a royal greeting for an ARRIVING King. Jesus only ARRIVES at thee end of the age
  2. Their garments were "washed". That means that they were dirty. That is, their works were evil. Luke 21:35-36 shows that the evil, or those "not accounted worthy" will pass through THE Great Tribulation
  3. The Lord promises that Christians will suffer tribulation. But the term "GREAT TRIBULATION" is used exclusively in connection with the end of the age. In Revelation 2:22, where our Lord threatens a Church with "Great Tribulation" it is "when He COMES" (v.25)
  4. The saints of Revelation 7 had no "living fountains of water". It seems that this was by their own choice for the Lamb will lead them there when the "Great Tribulation" is over. Christ, the "Living Fountain of water" is always available for those who want Him

Not one proof is enough by itself, but at least 4 or 5 things pointing in the same direction will move a good detective.

No one is saying the End of the Age is not the 70th week, but the Church is not here. My whole argument is the Birth Pangs BIRTH the end (70th week). Those things seen in verses 7-14 are NOTHING like the End Time Troubles, but you see Jesus only calls those in Matt. 14:15-21 the Greatest Ever Troubles ever seen by mankind, where he mentions THE Anti-Christ and THE False Prophet. The false christs in verses 5 were men the Pharisees put forth to save them from the Fourth Beast (Rome) and that fulfilled John 5:43, those Pharisees rejected Jesus who came in the Fathers name, but accepted another who came in his own name. The false Prophets of verse 11 were those who bellyached until they had the Disciples killed. It was about the High Priests of people who served Zeus, Jupiter, etc. In verse 6 Jesus tells them THE END (70th week) is not yet (he did not want them all rushing back to Jerusalem thinking he had come again, then dying) is not yet. Then in verse 14 he tells them what brings THE END (70th week) and then we get the Rapture as seen in verses 36-51. Jesus kept it on the down low because Israel's fate is different, the 3-5 million Jews who repent will help Jesus set up the Kingdom Age in earth, those Martyrs will be his Glorious Body Helpers, the rest of us I assume return to heaven, I think we help finish off the New Jerusalem, thus when it descends its called the Bride of Christ because we are in it.

The Church came out of Great Tribulation, that is a fact, we built the church on the blood of the Saints. They could not overcome the fact the we were happy to die for our Lord Jesus Christ and singing as they killed us go tp the Romans and others. But many many died. Even missionaries died, it has ben great tribulation, but to all those I say ADD IT UP, the TIMELIE only fits the Pre Trib Rapture.  https://worthychristianforums-h45go6maxh5rpepgu.netdna-ssl.com/uploads/emoticons/red-neck-laughing-smiley-emoticon.gif John Wayne, True Grit, "he draws it like a sword"

ADD IT UP........https://worthychristianforums-h45go6maxh5rpepgu.netdna-ssl.com/uploads/emoticons/default_amen.gif

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