Final generation in heaven 2000 years before born on earth and saved? How does that work?

[DeighAnn]

I am running around in circles trying to work this out and for the life of me can't see how this works, so maybe one of the 'pre trib' experts here can clear it all up, because if one of them can't then who could?

Please forgive if pre trib info is wrong; I admit I find it IMPOSSIBLE to follow and I am STILL, just looking for its' foundation. 
 

From what I understand THIS is the 'pre trib raptured church' SEEN IN HEAVEN and 'the reason' for the belief.

10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.  So,

1.  HOW can those who will not even be born for another 2000 years, ALREADY be in heaven as 'the pre trib raptured' final generation church'?

2. Do they leave HEAVEN 'to be BORN especially a part of the final generation' and are BORN ALREADY SAVED to be 'raptured'?  If so, why?

3. How is 'the final generation of the church' FOUND in heaven 'before the Lamb Slain' (even before Jesus becomes the Lamb slain and arrives in heaven Himself)?

4. If 'the FINAL generation of the church' aka 'the elders sitting on the thrones' ALREADY HAVE BODIES, then why are they returning for their old carcass to be raised up again?  And what kind of 'bodies' do they have?

5. If unable to respond to these distinct questions with distinct answers, if at all possible, please don't offer up anything.  It would be super nice to 'find the foundation' that is being stood upon once and for all.  

6. How can 'elders' from the future be 'the things' that ARE and not the things that will be?

 

[other one]

"M" string physics

[AdHoc]

52 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

I am running around in circles trying to work this out and for the life of me can't see how this works, so maybe one of the 'pre trib' experts here can clear it all up, because if one of them can't then who could?

Please forgive if pre trib info is wrong; I admit I find it IMPOSSIBLE to follow and I am STILL, just looking for its' foundation. 
 

From what I understand THIS is the 'pre trib raptured church' SEEN IN HEAVEN and 'the reason' for the belief.

10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.  So,

1.  HOW can those who will not even be born for another 2000 years, ALREADY be in heaven as 'the pre trib raptured' final generation church'?

2. Do they leave HEAVEN 'to be BORN especially a part of the final generation' and are BORN ALREADY SAVED to be 'raptured'?  If so, why?

3. How is 'the final generation of the church' FOUND in heaven 'before the Lamb Slain' (even before Jesus becomes the Lamb slain and arrives in heaven Himself)?

4. If 'the FINAL generation of the church' aka 'the elders sitting on the thrones' ALREADY HAVE BODIES, then why are they returning for their old carcass to be raised up again?  And what kind of 'bodies' do they have?

5. If unable to respond to these distinct questions with distinct answers, if at all possible, please don't offer up anything.  It would be super nice to 'find the foundation' that is being stood upon once and for all.  

6. How can 'elders' from the future be 'the things' that ARE and not the things that will be?

 

If the 24 Elders are the Church then a possible answer to your question is that John saw things that still must come to pass. But then the questions that beg to be answered are;

1. On what basis does 24 apply to the Church?
2. Does the universal Church have Elders?
3. Why wasn't John one of them?
4. How do the 24 Elders get crowns before Christ if Christ has the preeminence?

The answers to these are not what you want, so I won't elaborate, but one thing is sure. John was asked to;

19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter (Re 1:19)

And Chapter 4 starts with;

"Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter"

That is one possible answer to question 1. Question 2 onward are based upon your supposition that 1 is rhetorically correct. What I mean is that if question one is a non-possibility, then the other questions fall away.

 

[DeighAnn]

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

If the 24 Elders are the Church then a possible answer to your question is that John saw things that still must come to pass. But then the questions that beg to be answered are;

1. On what basis does 24 apply to the Church?
2. Does the universal Church have Elders?
3. Why wasn't John one of them?
4. How do the 24 Elders get crowns before Christ if Christ has the preeminence?

The answers to these are not what you want, so I won't elaborate, but one thing is sure. John was asked to;

19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter (Re 1:19)

And Chapter 4 starts with;

"Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter"

That is one possible answer to question 1. Question 2 onward are based upon your supposition that 1 is rhetorically correct. What I mean is that if question one is a non-possibility, then the other questions fall away.

 

The questions that BEG to be answered, are the ones I asked.  The ones that are NEVER ANSWERED.  What do your questions have to do with anything written?  So, thank you as there is NO NEED to elaborate on MORE THINGS that aren't written.  

I'll make it easy.  WHAT IS THE FOUNDATION that pre trib is built upon?  What words of GOD lay that foundation down?  Which of the prophets laid that foundation?  What book or chapter can it be found in the words of God?   I understand the TRINITY isn't found, but FATHER SON HOLY SPIRIT is.  Where is 'coming before trib, gathering,taking back to heaven' found so that I can SEE it AS something written?

Do you remember the tabernacles blueprints?  JUST like the ONE IN HEAVEN.  There is a KINGDOM going on in heaven.  Has been, most likely billions of years (Satan fell from RULING over KINGDOMS somewhere and the 'sons of God' WATCHED and shouted for joy when watching the earth being created)


Thy KINGDOM COME, Thy will be done, on earth AS IT IS IN HEAVEN.  

This world is still yet just a SHADOW of THAT KINGDOM.  We only see things halfway AT BEST.

One of my favorite stories in the Bible... it truly opened my eyes...

11Therefore the heart of the king of Syria was sore troubled for this thing; and he called his servants, and said unto them, Will ye not shew me which of us is for the king of Israel?

12And one of his servants said, None, my lord, O king: but Elisha, the prophet that is in Israel, telleth the king of Israel the words that thou speakest in thy bedchamber.

13And he said, Go and spy where he is, that I may send and fetch him. And it was told him, saying, Behold, he is in Dothan.

14Therefore sent he thither horses, and chariots, and a great host: and they came by night, and compassed the city about.

15And when the servant of the man of God was risen early, and gone forth, behold, an host compassed the city both with horses and chariots. And his servant said unto him, Alas, my master! how shall we do?

16 And he answered, Fear not: for they that be with us are more than they that be with them.

17And Elisha prayed, and said, LORD, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the LORD opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha.

 

We are living a 'blade of grass' existence right now with but moments to invest in the things the moth does not eat, and the things that follow us, our works.  

On the other hand THAT WORLD, the one presently UNSEEN is eternal with BEINGS that can't be numbered.  

So the 'elders' seen in Heaven are a part of GODS COURT.  WE will be a part of HIS SONS court. We are 'the body' of the SON who will rule and reign ON EARTH.  Christ sits NEXT to His Fathers throne in heaven as we will sit next to the SONS THRONE here on earth.  THEN all evil has VANISHED like the dew in the sun, THEN will the NEW HEAVEN AND NEW EARTH be the place where GOD dwells.


So EXACTLY what I believed would happen has.  NO ONE CAN LAY A FOUNDATION upon which to build.  I understand you don't like that, as I know there is lots of work been put into it, but the problem is IT ISN'T GODS TRUTH, and it isn't Gods Truth for the simple fact 'it isn't written'.  But worse yet, it makes void the words of God, BECAUSE it isn't right to leave BRETHREN BEHIND to duke it out for themselves. It isn't right to take away everyone who has RECEIVED the truth before EVERYONE has.  AS Christ so loved the church, WE should love the church and if that means a couple years of 'trib' FROM SATAN who we have been given power over, so be it, because the JOY on the other side is WAY MORE than worth it.  We will receive of Him as He received of His Father.  ALL these things MATTER especially when seeking GODS TRUTH.  

All I can say is ONE OF US are going to have ALL THIS WORK BURNED UP leaving one of us with NO REWARD, just 'saved'.  I KNOW that STANDING there in front of GOD I am going to say IT IS WRITTEN hundreds of times as MY TRUTH.  Will you be saying the same thing?  I will not be giving any conclusions or suppositions or conjecture nor any 'beliefs built upon them', there will be no 'what it meants' taking place, just 'it is written' BECAUSE what is written is WHAT I BELIEVE.  Will you be saying that same thing?  

These SHOULD BE easily answered questions IF THEY WERE TRUTH.  The fact that NOTHING is written that can be pointed to, should be the first sign of a problem.  

 Questioning if WHAT IS WRITTEN is WHAT IS MEANT, is just another form of 'Yea, Hath God said?'.  There is a single 2nd Advent.  There is ONE TIME the alive and remaining are changed.  There is one time the 'dead' resurrect when Christ returns.  Pre trib ADDS to those.  Pre trib has Christ leaving the right hand of God BEFORE enemies made His footstool.  NOT TO MENTION that it has managed to take from us ALL the knowledge and wisdom of us FOLLOWING HIM when we 'NEVER DIE' and go to be with Him and gives it to the last day RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD of the habitants of the world and changing it to the living going to be resurrected, the never die BEING MADE DEAD and being raised up out of the corruption.  None of that is right. 


ANYWAYS, the way it goes, FROM WHAT I UNDERSTAND it is the ELDERS (church) that are NOW and that WHY THE CHURCH isn't seen in the rest of the book.  Right or wrong, I don't know what is 'believed' as far as pre trib or how that would relate anyhow.  


 

[DeighAnn]

4 hours ago, other one said:

"M" string physics

Wisdom of man?

[other one]

6 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

Wisdom of man?

most things in the world are.    Answers a lot of context in the Word.

[DeighAnn]

43 minutes ago, other one said:

most things in the world are.    Answers a lot of context in the Word.

Simplicity in Christ.  Come to the Father as little children.  God is not the author of confusion.  Man does not live by bread alone but by EVERY WORD that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.  The Narrow path.  

Wisdom of man if of the world.  We have been given the Holy Spirit to see the things of the spiritual world.  The traditions of man, the wisdom of man, these get in the way of the Spirit of Truth from what I have seen anyhow.  The words of God tell a story and the only way to stay in its truth is to believe what is written as it is written and not as "Yea, hath God said" aka wisdom of man.  

BUT THIS has just been my experience with doctrines that are all based on conjecture and nothing that is written.  

[other one]

I'm not going to enter this discussion.  You asked a question and I gave you what I consider a decent answer...

[Michael37]

8 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

I am running around in circles trying to work this out and for the life of me can't see how this works, so maybe one of the 'pre trib' experts here can clear it all up, because if one of them can't then who could?

Please forgive if pre trib info is wrong; I admit I find it IMPOSSIBLE to follow and I am STILL, just looking for its' foundation. 
 

From what I understand THIS is the 'pre trib raptured church' SEEN IN HEAVEN and 'the reason' for the belief.

10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.  So,

1.  HOW can those who will not even be born for another 2000 years, ALREADY be in heaven as 'the pre trib raptured' final generation church'?

2. Do they leave HEAVEN 'to be BORN especially a part of the final generation' and are BORN ALREADY SAVED to be 'raptured'?  If so, why?

3. How is 'the final generation of the church' FOUND in heaven 'before the Lamb Slain' (even before Jesus becomes the Lamb slain and arrives in heaven Himself)?

4. If 'the FINAL generation of the church' aka 'the elders sitting on the thrones' ALREADY HAVE BODIES, then why are they returning for their old carcass to be raised up again?  And what kind of 'bodies' do they have?

5. If unable to respond to these distinct questions with distinct answers, if at all possible, please don't offer up anything.  It would be super nice to 'find the foundation' that is being stood upon once and for all.  

6. How can 'elders' from the future be 'the things' that ARE and not the things that will be?

Many commentaries deal with this subject and I am of the belief that just as John was in the Spirit free of the encumbrances of physical and temporal reality, so also are the 24 elders who are the spiritual representatives chosen by God from eternity to enact the particular disclosure scene they feature in.

 Rev 4:2  And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

 

[Diaste]

8 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

The questions that BEG to be answered, are the ones I asked.  The ones that are NEVER ANSWERED.  What do your questions have to do with anything written?  So, thank you as there is NO NEED to elaborate on MORE THINGS that aren't written.  

I'll make it easy.  WHAT IS THE FOUNDATION that pre trib is built upon?  What words of GOD lay that foundation down?  Which of the prophets laid that foundation?  What book or chapter can it be found in the words of God?   I understand the TRINITY isn't found, but FATHER SON HOLY SPIRIT is.  Where is 'coming before trib, gathering,taking back to heaven' found so that I can SEE it AS something written?

Do you remember the tabernacles blueprints?  JUST like the ONE IN HEAVEN.  There is a KINGDOM going on in heaven.  Has been, most likely billions of years (Satan fell from RULING over KINGDOMS somewhere and the 'sons of God' WATCHED and shouted for joy when watching the earth being created)


Thy KINGDOM COME, Thy will be done, on earth AS IT IS IN HEAVEN.  

This world is still yet just a SHADOW of THAT KINGDOM.  We only see things halfway AT BEST.

One of my favorite stories in the Bible... it truly opened my eyes...

11Therefore the heart of the king of Syria was sore troubled for this thing; and he called his servants, and said unto them, Will ye not shew me which of us is for the king of Israel?

12And one of his servants said, None, my lord, O king: but Elisha, the prophet that is in Israel, telleth the king of Israel the words that thou speakest in thy bedchamber.

13And he said, Go and spy where he is, that I may send and fetch him. And it was told him, saying, Behold, he is in Dothan.

14Therefore sent he thither horses, and chariots, and a great host: and they came by night, and compassed the city about.

15And when the servant of the man of God was risen early, and gone forth, behold, an host compassed the city both with horses and chariots. And his servant said unto him, Alas, my master! how shall we do?

16 And he answered, Fear not: for they that be with us are more than they that be with them.

17And Elisha prayed, and said, LORD, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the LORD opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha.

 

We are living a 'blade of grass' existence right now with but moments to invest in the things the moth does not eat, and the things that follow us, our works.  

On the other hand THAT WORLD, the one presently UNSEEN is eternal with BEINGS that can't be numbered.  

So the 'elders' seen in Heaven are a part of GODS COURT.  WE will be a part of HIS SONS court. We are 'the body' of the SON who will rule and reign ON EARTH.  Christ sits NEXT to His Fathers throne in heaven as we will sit next to the SONS THRONE here on earth.  THEN all evil has VANISHED like the dew in the sun, THEN will the NEW HEAVEN AND NEW EARTH be the place where GOD dwells.


So EXACTLY what I believed would happen has.  NO ONE CAN LAY A FOUNDATION upon which to build.  I understand you don't like that, as I know there is lots of work been put into it, but the problem is IT ISN'T GODS TRUTH, and it isn't Gods Truth for the simple fact 'it isn't written'.  But worse yet, it makes void the words of God, BECAUSE it isn't right to leave BRETHREN BEHIND to duke it out for themselves. It isn't right to take away everyone who has RECEIVED the truth before EVERYONE has.  AS Christ so loved the church, WE should love the church and if that means a couple years of 'trib' FROM SATAN who we have been given power over, so be it, because the JOY on the other side is WAY MORE than worth it.  We will receive of Him as He received of His Father.  ALL these things MATTER especially when seeking GODS TRUTH.  

All I can say is ONE OF US are going to have ALL THIS WORK BURNED UP leaving one of us with NO REWARD, just 'saved'.  I KNOW that STANDING there in front of GOD I am going to say IT IS WRITTEN hundreds of times as MY TRUTH.  Will you be saying the same thing?  I will not be giving any conclusions or suppositions or conjecture nor any 'beliefs built upon them', there will be no 'what it meants' taking place, just 'it is written' BECAUSE what is written is WHAT I BELIEVE.  Will you be saying that same thing?  

These SHOULD BE easily answered questions IF THEY WERE TRUTH.  The fact that NOTHING is written that can be pointed to, should be the first sign of a problem.  

 Questioning if WHAT IS WRITTEN is WHAT IS MEANT, is just another form of 'Yea, Hath God said?'.  There is a single 2nd Advent.  There is ONE TIME the alive and remaining are changed.  There is one time the 'dead' resurrect when Christ returns.  Pre trib ADDS to those.  Pre trib has Christ leaving the right hand of God BEFORE enemies made His footstool.  NOT TO MENTION that it has managed to take from us ALL the knowledge and wisdom of us FOLLOWING HIM when we 'NEVER DIE' and go to be with Him and gives it to the last day RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD of the habitants of the world and changing it to the living going to be resurrected, the never die BEING MADE DEAD and being raised up out of the corruption.  None of that is right. 


ANYWAYS, the way it goes, FROM WHAT I UNDERSTAND it is the ELDERS (church) that are NOW and that WHY THE CHURCH isn't seen in the rest of the book.  Right or wrong, I don't know what is 'believed' as far as pre trib or how that would relate anyhow.  

 

The foundation is deception, desire and fear. Satan's tool bag.