Is the Beast in Daniel 7 the same Empires as Dan 2?

[Vine Abider]

Many, if not most, seem to think they are essentially the same empires, but I think there's good reason for saying the one in chapter 7 pertains more to end times than ancient kingdoms,  like is depicted in chapter 2.

Here are some reasons:

1.     It makes little sense that the first three beasts would be ancient kingdoms, since the 4^th beast and the rest of the chapter all pertain to end times (i.e., final judgement, the Son of Man coming in the clouds and the kingdom dominion – chapter 12:9,10, 13, 14)

2.     Verse 7 says – “These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which SHALL arise out of the earth.”  If Babylon was one of those beasts (as many suppose the 1^st beast is), it would not say “shall arise” as this would make little sense, since Babylon was in existence when Daniel received this vision.

3.     After the 4^th beast (antichrist) is destroyed, the other three remain as stated in verse 12 – “As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away, but an extension of life was granted to them for an appointed period of time.”  Therefore, the other three kingdoms must have existed during the reign of antichrist.*

4.     We see these beasts again in Revelation 13, which is about an end time scenario.  (the beasts in that chapter seemed to have morphed into one beast – “The beast that I saw was like a leopard. Its feet were like bear’s feet, and its mouth was like a lion’s mouth.”)

 *Popular interpretation of these 4 beasts is that the first is Babylon, the second is the Medo/Persian empire, the third is the Greek/Alexander empire and the fourth is the Roman empire.  But while it’s possible to ascribe these beasts to those ancient empires, it doesn’t negate that it could also apply in latter times as well.

[Vine Abider]

Looking at the beast/empires in Daniel 7, here are some interesting things to note with the first two.

3 And four great beasts ^tcame up out of the sea, different from one another. 4 The first was like a lion and had eagles’ wings. Then as I looked its wings were plucked off, and it was lifted up from the ground and made to stand on two feet like a man, and the mind of a man was given to it. 5 And behold, ^uanother beast, a second one, like a bear. It was raised up on one side. It had three ribs in its mouth between its teeth; and it was told, ‘Arise, devour much flesh.’ 

Great Briton was the greatest empire the world has ever seen in a couple respects - it had about 1/4 of the earth's land and it had more people than any other empire before or since. It was said the sun never set on the British empire.  And it's symbol has always been the lion ever since the days of Richard the Lion-hearted - this symbol can be seen everywhere.

The two wings the lion had got plucked off.  This could be a symbol of the United States gaining independence. 

The bear is a symbol of Russia.  The country has had an aggressive stance for some time.

[other one]

Back in the mid 70's I made a 4' by 8' white board in a storage building we had.    I cut out all the different entities in Daniel, Ezekiel, Isiah and Revelation and attempted to overlap them as to which real entity or nation they were and in thier time frame.   After about a year of having near violent arguments with myself I finally decided to just burn it all and wait till Jesus comes back.    Life got better.   Well until I met the devil, but that another long story.

[Vine Abider]

47 minutes ago, other one said:

Back in the mid 70's I made a 4' by 8' white board in a storage building we had.    I cut out all the different entities in Daniel, Ezekiel, Isiah and Revelation and attempted to overlap them as to which real entity or nation they were and in thier time frame.   After about a year of having near violent arguments with myself I finally decided to just burn it all and wait till Jesus comes back.    Life got better.   Well until I met the devil, but that another long story.

Interesting story!  So, without dragging you back into the fray  did you think the entities in Daniel 2 and 7 are the same or different?

Edited November 30, 2022 by Vine Abider

[WilliamL]

3 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

1.     It makes little sense that the first three beasts would be ancient kingdoms, since the 4^th beast and the rest of the chapter all pertain to end times (i.e., final judgement, the Son of Man coming in the clouds and the kingdom dominion – chapter 12:9,10, 13, 14)

2.     Verse 7 says – “These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which SHALL arise out of the earth.”  If Babylon was one of those beasts (as many suppose the 1^st beast is), it would not say “shall arise” as this would make little sense, since Babylon was in existence when Daniel received this vision.

1) These are four spiritual kingdoms, that is, being heavenly sarim who reign over earthly nations. All of these nations still exist, even though three of them no longer have their ancient power. Remember, the four parts of Daniel 2's images are all shattered in the End Times. The fourth kingdom, the Roman, exists today in the form of those European nations that follow after Roman law and norms. Rev. 13:2's 'head-wound that was healed' refers to the revival of the Roman Empire in the Holy Roman Empire and its descendency.

2) "shall arise" is an translation based upon the point-of-view of a translator. However, while imperfect verbs generally are used for present or future events, they can also be used for events that took place in the past, but the effects have been ongoing. "Imperfect" means "not-yet-completed" action, whether or not begun in the present. The better translation, based upon the context, is "shall have arisen."

Edited November 30, 2022 by WilliamL

[Vine Abider]

9 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

1) These are four spiritual kingdoms, that is, being heavenly sarim who reign over earthly nations. All of these nations still exist, even though three of them no longer have their ancient power. Remember, the four parts of Daniel 2's images are all shattered in the End Times. The fourth kingdom, the Roman, exists today in the form of those Western nations that follow after Roman law and norms. Rev. 13:2's 'head-wound that was healed' refers to the revival of the Roman Empire in the Holy Roman Empire and its descendency.

2) "shall arise" is an translation based upon the point-of-view of a translator. However, while imperfect verbs generally are used for present or future events, they can also be used for events that took place in the past, but the effects have been ongoing. "Imperfect" means "not-yet-completed" action, whether or not begun in the present. The better translation, based upon the context, is "shall have arisen."

I've heard that before - it is a way it can be translated, but doesn't preclude that it could mean future, right?

If one looks at the whole chapter and context of chapter 7, it fits that it's toward the end of the age.  That is since it talks about the evil one, the Lord's 2nd coming and judgement:  21 As I looked, this horn ^xmade war with the saints and prevailed over them, 22 until the ^yAncient of Days came, and ^ujudgment was given for the saints of the Most High, and the time came when ^uthe saints possessed the kingdom.

[WilliamL]

1 minute ago, Vine Abider said:

If one looks at the whole chapter and context of chapter 7, it fits that it's toward the end of the age.  That is since it talks about the evil one, the Lord's 2nd coming and judgement:  21 As I looked, this horn ^xmade war with the saints and prevailed over them, 22 until the ^yAncient of Days came, and ^ujudgment was given for the saints of the Most High, and the time came when ^uthe saints possessed the kingdom.

The fulfillment of the chapter, starting in verse 9, is End Times. However, the descriptions of the first three beasts describe very well the characters and deeds of the ancient Chaldeo-Babylonian, Persian, and Greek empires.

[Vine Abider]

36 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

The fulfillment of the chapter, starting in verse 9, is End Times. However, the descriptions of the first three beasts describe very well the characters and deeds of the ancient Chaldeo-Babylonian, Persian, and Greek empires.

They also describe more modern empires, as I pointed out above.  So could it be possible chapter 7 is about more end-of-the-age times?  Why think the beasts are ancient, when it immediately goes into future mode?

[other one]

1 hour ago, Vine Abider said:

Interesting story!  So, without dragging you back into the fray  did you think the entities in Daniel 2 and 7 are the same or different?

Hummmm,    mid 1970s....  that was about 50 years ago.

[Marilyn C]

6 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

Many, if not most, seem to think they are essentially the same empires, but I think there's good reason for saying the one in chapter 7 pertains more to end times than ancient kingdoms,  like is depicted in chapter 2.

Here are some reasons:

1.     It makes little sense that the first three beasts would be ancient kingdoms, since the 4^th beast and the rest of the chapter all pertain to end times (i.e., final judgement, the Son of Man coming in the clouds and the kingdom dominion – chapter 12:9,10, 13, 14)

2.     Verse 7 says – “These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which SHALL arise out of the earth.”  If Babylon was one of those beasts (as many suppose the 1^st beast is), it would not say “shall arise” as this would make little sense, since Babylon was in existence when Daniel received this vision.

3.     After the 4^th beast (antichrist) is destroyed, the other three remain as stated in verse 12 – “As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away, but an extension of life was granted to them for an appointed period of time.”  Therefore, the other three kingdoms must have existed during the reign of antichrist.*

4.     We see these beasts again in Revelation 13, which is about an end time scenario.  (the beasts in that chapter seemed to have morphed into one beast – “The beast that I saw was like a leopard. Its feet were like bear’s feet, and its mouth was like a lion’s mouth.”)

 *Popular interpretation of these 4 beasts is that the first is Babylon, the second is the Medo/Persian empire, the third is the Greek/Alexander empire and the fourth is the Roman empire.  But while it’s possible to ascribe these beasts to those ancient empires, it doesn’t negate that it could also apply in latter times as well.

Hi VA,

I agree. The first seven chapters of Daniel are written in Aramaic and concern the times of the Gentiles ruling the world and the final four great Federations before the Lord sets up His kingdom rule through Israel.

The chapters 8 - 12 refer to Israel, the land, temple and its people and is written in Hebrew.

In Dan. 2 we see the times of the Gentiles, with 5 world rulers centred around the Middle East. 

In Dan. 7 we read of the four great Federations that come up one at a time but continue at the same time. The final Federation treads down the others. Then when the final Federation is judged by God the three other federations are given more time but without the authority they had. (Dan. 7: 7 & 11 & 12)

God gives us all the details for these important times.