Vine Abider Posted January 24, 2023 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 6 Topic Count: 200 Topics Per Day: 0.37 Content Count: 3,415 Content Per Day: 6.24 Reputation: 2,277 Days Won: 3 Joined: 10/25/2022 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/01/2024 Share Posted January 24, 2023 "For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever." I Thessalonians 4:16-17 Why does this specifically say, "and remains" (or "are left")? After the dead are raised, it doesn't just say those are "still alive" will be caught up to the clouds, but rather it distinguishes those "who are still alive and remain." Why is that - are there some who are alive on the earth that are taken before the Lord descends to the cloud (meaning some will be "alive and remain")? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dennis1209 Posted January 24, 2023 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 18 Topic Count: 347 Topics Per Day: 0.13 Content Count: 7,460 Content Per Day: 2.70 Reputation: 5,375 Days Won: 1 Joined: 09/27/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted January 24, 2023 42 minutes ago, Vine Abider said: "For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever." I Thessalonians 4:16-17 Why does this specifically say, "and remains" (or "are left")? After the dead are raised, it doesn't just say those are "still alive" will be caught up to the clouds, but rather it distinguishes those "who are still alive and remain." Why is that - are there some who are alive on the earth that are taken before the Lord descends to the cloud (meaning some will be "alive and remain")? If I understand what you are asking? Both groups are one body in Christ, His church, and His bride. The order is that those “asleep” in Christ, whose body died, must first be bodily resurrected from the dead. At this point, those that remain in the body of Christ are next in order, not tasting death but transformed in the twinkling of an eye into glorified bodies. Paul uses the personal pronoun of “we” as the second group to be translated. The word “we” also indicates that Paul thought and was looking for the “harpazo” in his lifetime. Those bodies in the “grave” do not contain their souls. At this time, their souls have to reunite with their bodies. The question you, me, and @AdHoc have previously discussed is, are those souls ascending to their bodies from Hades? Or, they accompany Jesus at His return, and they descend to their original bodies? I prefer the latter as was discussed. So, the way I view it, there are two separate and distinct translations to being with the Lord forever. Another question is, are the saints of all time (not just the church age) translated at this harpazo? I think that question is addressed with who are the “guests” at the wedding supper of the Lamb. Is the preceding what you were specifically asking? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vine Abider Posted January 24, 2023 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 6 Topic Count: 200 Topics Per Day: 0.37 Content Count: 3,415 Content Per Day: 6.24 Reputation: 2,277 Days Won: 3 Joined: 10/25/2022 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/01/2024 Author Share Posted January 24, 2023 46 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said: If I understand what you are asking? Both groups are one body in Christ, His church, and His bride. The order is that those “asleep” in Christ, whose body died, must first be bodily resurrected from the dead. At this point, those that remain in the body of Christ are next in order, not tasting death but transformed in the twinkling of an eye into glorified bodies. Paul uses the personal pronoun of “we” as the second group to be translated. The word “we” also indicates that Paul thought and was looking for the “harpazo” in his lifetime. Those bodies in the “grave” do not contain their souls. At this time, their souls have to reunite with their bodies. The question you, me, and @AdHoc have previously discussed is, are those souls ascending to their bodies from Hades? Or, they accompany Jesus at His return, and they descend to their original bodies? I prefer the latter as was discussed. So, the way I view it, there are two separate and distinct translations to being with the Lord forever. Another question is, are the saints of all time (not just the church age) translated at this harpazo? I think that question is addressed with who are the “guests” at the wedding supper of the Lamb. Is the preceding what you were specifically asking? Yes. But the point is the HS adds the words "and are left." These are unnecessary words unless there is a reason for adding them. Why doesn't it just say. "The dead in Christ are the first to rise, then those who are still alive . . . (will be caught up)" and stop there. Instead it says, "those who are alive AND ARE LEFT will be caught up." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdHoc Posted January 24, 2023 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 4 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,025 Content Per Day: 3.33 Reputation: 1,439 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/29/2021 Status: Offline Share Posted January 24, 2023 9 minutes ago, Vine Abider said: Yes. But the point is the HS adds the words "and are left." These are unnecessary words unless there is a reason for adding them. Why doesn't it just say. "The dead in Christ are the first to rise, then those who are still alive . . . (will be caught up)" and stop there. Instead it says, "those who are alive AND ARE LEFT will be caught up." You might like to add that in Matthew 24 some were LEFT. This wording has puzzled many. Perhaps if we hang the whole matter on its context, it will help. Traditionally, Bible students take 1st Thessalonians 4:12-18 as a treatise on the rapture. Well ... it contains the matter but the actual problem that Paul deals with is not the rapture. It is the belief by the saints in Thessaloniki that the dead In Christ would miss the RESURRECTION. They "SORROWED" because they thought that those that "WERE ASLEEP" (v.13) would miss the RESURRECTION. So Paul's subject is Verse 14; Those that SLEEP will be in the company that comes with the Lord (which we see in Revelation Chapter 19). No Thessalonian thought that men were already in heaven. If they did, why would they SORROW? No! The Thessalonians, and every other Christian taught by Paul, KNEW that those who SLEPT were in graves BODILY with their SOULS in Hades. Verse 15: "For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep." See the emphasis? It is not a lecture on the rapture. It is explaining what happens to those ASLEEP. The word "PREVENT" is a compound word; "PRE" means "before", "VENT" means to go somewhere. The LIVING would not go somewhere BEFORE they dead. The rest is simple. Jesus makes a journey. So does a salesman. He will journey from New York to San Francisco. But on the way, at Reno, he will stop for a week to meet some people from San Francisco who have been chosen to have a week of gambling as a reward because of sales figures. The chief salesman does not send his co-salesmen to New York. It is not necessary because the main convention is in San Francisco. Men have nothing to do with "the highest heaven" where Jesus has been sitting for 2,000 years. Men have to do wit the earth. So Jesus leaves the highest heaven and journeys to the Troposphere (where clouds are). The dead RISE from Hades to the surface where they meet newly constructed bodies. As they arrive, the LIVING are changed to their resurrection bodies as per 1st Corinthians 15:51-54. Then TOGETHER they are caught up to the clouds. Verse 18 is the problematic verse. If the text concerns those LEFT, WHY WOULD THEY BE COMFORTED. Revelation 7 shows this hoard "weeping". A possible answer is that we must stay strictly within the context which is the fate of the dead. That is, the Thessalonians are to be comforted because the problem of the DEAD is solved and they must sorrow no more. This could be the case if the SUBJECT was the dead not missing the rapture. And this could be the case IF IT WAS TAUGHT BY PAUL THAT IT WAS EXPECTED THAT THEY ALL WERE EXEMPLARY CHRISTIANS! And this seems to be the case (if we read Chapters 1 and 3). The issue of one "taken" and one "LEFT" is not in view. BUT .... Paul MUST STILL INSERT THE WARNING FOR FUTURE READERS. To summarize; The early Church did not have the doctrine of dead men going to heaven. Dead men went to Hades and their bodies returned to the elements. Thessaloniki, where Paul only stayed three weeks, were clear that LIVING saints would be raptured. But thought the dead saints would suffer disadvantage. Paul corrects this in that he shows that the LIVING would NOT PREVENT (go before) the dead, but GO TOGETHER The "COMFORT" of verse 18 is not over the rapture,, but because the dead would not suffer disadvantage The hidden threat of Matthew 24 that one would be "taken" ("Paralambano" - taken as a well known acquaintance) and one would be LEFT (because the Lord did not take him), remains embodied in the scripture even though Thessaloniki was a model Church. What do you think? @Vine Abider @Dennis1209 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi Posted January 24, 2023 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 57 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 1,758 Content Per Day: 1.02 Reputation: 311 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/28/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted January 24, 2023 58 minutes ago, Vine Abider said: Yes. But the point is the HS adds the words "and are left." These are unnecessary words unless there is a reason for adding them. Why doesn't it just say. "The dead in Christ are the first to rise, then those who are still alive . . . (will be caught up)" and stop there. Instead it says, "those who are alive AND ARE LEFT will be caught up." They who survive the Great tribulation, are the remnant who remain, is my understanding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vine Abider Posted January 24, 2023 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 6 Topic Count: 200 Topics Per Day: 0.37 Content Count: 3,415 Content Per Day: 6.24 Reputation: 2,277 Days Won: 3 Joined: 10/25/2022 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/01/2024 Author Share Posted January 24, 2023 (edited) 21 minutes ago, AdHoc said: You might like to add that in Matthew 24 some were LEFT. This wording has puzzled many. Perhaps if we hang the whole matter on its context, it will help. Traditionally, Bible students take 1st Thessalonians 4:12-18 as a treatise on the rapture. Well ... it contains the matter but the actual problem that Paul deals with is not the rapture. It is the belief by the saints in Thessaloniki that the dead In Christ would miss the RESURRECTION. They "SORROWED" because they thought that those that "WERE ASLEEP" (v.13) would miss the RESURRECTION. So Paul's subject is Verse 14; Those that SLEEP will be in the company that comes with the Lord (which we see in Revelation Chapter 19). No Thessalonian thought that men were already in heaven. If they did, why would they SORROW? No! The Thessalonians, and every other Christian taught by Paul, KNEW that those who SLEPT were in graves BODILY with their SOULS in Hades. Verse 15: "For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep." See the emphasis? It is not a lecture on the rapture. It is explaining what happens to those ASLEEP. The word "PREVENT" is a compound word; "PRE" means "before", "VENT" means to go somewhere. The LIVING would not go somewhere BEFORE they dead. The rest is simple. Jesus makes a journey. So does a salesman. He will journey from New York to San Francisco. But on the way, at Reno, he will stop for a week to meet some people from San Francisco who have been chosen to have a week of gambling as a reward because of sales figures. The chief salesman does not send his co-salesmen to New York. It is not necessary because the main convention is in San Francisco. Men have nothing to do with "the highest heaven" where Jesus has been sitting for 2,000 years. Men have to do wit the earth. So Jesus leaves the highest heaven and journeys to the Troposphere (where clouds are). The dead RISE from Hades to the surface where they meet newly constructed bodies. As they arrive, the LIVING are changed to their resurrection bodies as per 1st Corinthians 15:51-54. Then TOGETHER they are caught up to the clouds. Verse 18 is the problematic verse. If the text concerns those LEFT, WHY WOULD THEY BE COMFORTED. Revelation 7 shows this hoard "weeping". A possible answer is that we must stay strictly within the context which is the fate of the dead. That is, the Thessalonians are to be comforted because the problem of the DEAD is solved and they must sorrow no more. This could be the case if the SUBJECT was the dead not missing the rapture. And this could be the case IF IT WAS TAUGHT BY PAUL THAT IT WAS EXPECTED THAT THEY ALL WERE EXEMPLARY CHRISTIANS! And this seems to be the case (if we read Chapters 1 and 3). The issue of one "taken" and one "LEFT" is not in view. BUT .... Paul MUST STILL INSERT THE WARNING FOR FUTURE READERS. To summarize; The early Church did not have the doctrine of dead men going to heaven. Dead men went to Hades and their bodies returned to the elements. Thessaloniki, where Paul only stayed three weeks, were clear that LIVING saints would be raptured. But thought the dead saints would suffer disadvantage. Paul corrects this in that he shows that the LIVING would NOT PREVENT (go before) the dead, but GO TOGETHER The "COMFORT" of verse 18 is not over the rapture,, but because the dead would not suffer disadvantage The hidden threat of Matthew 24 that one would be "taken" ("Paralambano" - taken as a well known acquaintance) and one would be LEFT (because the Lord did not take him), remains embodied in the scripture even though Thessaloniki was a model Church. What do you think? @Vine Abider @Dennis1209 Thanks for that, and I see your point regarding being comforted by knowing the dead will rise too. But this doesn't explain why it inserts "are are left" does it? These are extra words it seems, right? Here's the verses from 1st Thessalonians 4:13-18, just to have them handy: "Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage one another with these words." Here's my point, which goes back to the partial rapture/first-fruits idea - if some were taken earlier (as per the promise to Philadelphia in Rev 3:10) to the heavens as first-fruits prior to the general rapture, then you would have those who are "alive AND REMAIN" after the first-fruit reaping (as in Rev 14:4). Edited January 24, 2023 by Vine Abider Clarity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truth7t7 Posted January 24, 2023 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 56 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,749 Content Per Day: 0.60 Reputation: 329 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/19/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted January 24, 2023 4 hours ago, Vine Abider said: "For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever." I Thessalonians 4:16-17 Why does this specifically say, "and remains" (or "are left")? After the dead are raised, it doesn't just say those are "still alive" will be caught up to the clouds, but rather it distinguishes those "who are still alive and remain." Why is that - are there some who are alive on the earth that are taken before the Lord descends to the cloud (meaning some will be "alive and remain")? I believe it's simply showing the two groups of believers, the dead and living at the time of the second coming, it's that simple In the twinkling of an eye, both the dead and living believers receive the glorified body as seen below 1 Corinthians 15:52KJV 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truth7t7 Posted January 24, 2023 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 56 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,749 Content Per Day: 0.60 Reputation: 329 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/19/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted January 24, 2023 2 hours ago, Vine Abider said: Here's my point, which goes back to the partial rapture/first-fruits idea - if some were taken earlier (as per the promise to Philadelphia in Rev 3:10) to the heavens as first-fruits prior to the general rapture, then you would have those who are "alive AND REMAIN" after the first-fruit reaping (as in Rev 14:4). There are (Two) resurrections on the (Last Day) the righteous are blessed to be in the (First Resurrection) to eternal life, on such the (Second Death) resurrection has no power. 1.) (First Resurrection) To Life 2.) (Second Death) Resurrection To Damnation Revelation 20:6KJV Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. The (Last Day) Resurrection Of All Below Daniel 12:1-2KJV 1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. John 5:28-29KJV 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. John 6:39-40KJV 39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. 1 Corinthians 15:21-24KJV 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. The (Last Day) Judgement John 12:48KJV 48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truth7t7 Posted January 24, 2023 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 56 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,749 Content Per Day: 0.60 Reputation: 329 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/19/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted January 24, 2023 (edited) 16 minutes ago, Da Puppers said: The opening of the 6th Seal marks the time when the dead in Christ rise first. And some [short] time later the inheritance of the kingdom, as per 1Cor 15, when [both] the mortal (the living) shall put on immortality AND the corruptible (dead) put on incorruption. The opening of the 6th Seal and the sounding of the 7th Trumpet are two separate events, even as the dead in Christ rise first and then we who are alive and remain are caught up later to meet the Lord God in the air. Be Blessed The PuP I disagree, the dead and living in Christ are changed In The twinkling of an eye, there is no time gap between the dead and living as you suggest, as scripture clearly teaches below 1 Corinthians 15:52KJV 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. Edited January 24, 2023 by truth7t7 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dennis1209 Posted January 24, 2023 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 18 Topic Count: 347 Topics Per Day: 0.13 Content Count: 7,460 Content Per Day: 2.70 Reputation: 5,375 Days Won: 1 Joined: 09/27/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted January 24, 2023 3 hours ago, Vine Abider said: Thanks for that, and I see your point regarding being comforted by knowing the dead will rise too. But this doesn't explain why it inserts "are are left" does it? These are extra words it seems, right? Here's the verses from 1st Thessalonians 4:13-18, just to have them handy: "Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage one another with these words." Here's my point, which goes back to the partial rapture/first-fruits idea - if some were taken earlier (as per the promise to Philadelphia in Rev 3:10) to the heavens as first-fruits prior to the general rapture, then you would have those who are "alive AND REMAIN" after the first-fruit reaping (as in Rev 14:4). Okay, now I see where you are coming from finally! This might be something I have passed over time and again myself, and have not understood it. I did not think I needed to look at a Greek word meaning for this one, but I did just in case. REMAIN —LN 85.66 be left behind, remain (1Th 4:15, 17+)[1] 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. To paraphrase what I now think Paul is saying: Neither those that are being Raptured and those who will be left behind (remaining-not Raptured) cannot prevent those which are asleep from being Raptured first. I now see what you meant. Taking out the word “remain” would make more sense, unless Paul is talking two groups, those taken, and those not. [1] Swanson, James. Dictionary of Biblical Languages with Semantic Domains: Greek (New Testament) 1997: n. pag. Print. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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