Predestination.

[Justin Adams]

Just read Rom 11.

Seems you can be grafted in or cut out depending on your Believing Loyalty. Read and see. Most churchianity has fundementally misunderstood election etc. Ad nauseum. 

[Selah7]

This passage of Scripture addresses the Elect.  Notice that God will always intercede in the lives of “the saints” (the Elect).  And who are the Elect?  Those who love God—His sheep.
…..

The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to His purpose. For whom He did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

- Romans 8:16-18,26-39 (KJV)

[farouk]

15 hours ago, OneLight said:

@FJK ... sounds like you could use a little study about a doctrinal battle that has been going on for a very long time, Calvinism vs. Arminianism.   As for predestination, you should study Romans 8.

What a tremendous chapter is Romans 8!

[Neighbor]

2 hours ago, AnOrangeCat said:

So why all the choices presented if there's no choice at all,

Perhaps, just perhaps the answer to that is in the "foreknown" portion of Romans 8: 29-31

God has foreknown from before the beginning.  So I find that predestination does not need to eliminate choice, but merely confirm it from before the foreknown and predestined choice is realized by man.  

It is recorded that God also has stated He creates some for glory and some not ( some to honor and some to dishonor). Yet all are used to point out His glory.  

The question of did Pharaoh have choice or not is  always interesting to go through. For what purpose was he created by God and why did he rail so against his hard working captives? In practical terms ( IMO) he feared them  for they were prolific reproducers whose shear numbers were becoming a threat to his power. But the why of it all? Perhaps because  He has  chosen a people and even though they rebel He leads them to their redemption. It is predestined and has been foreknown  to God has it not?

All I truly know as a certainty is that  while on this side of sanity, when I was called out by the Holy Spirit and given a now or never choice, I could not refuse. I went from there is no God to Jesus is my lord and savior in a matter of moments.

Thus the I am a Freewill-Calvinist stance.

[Neighbor]

1 hour ago, Justin Adams said:

Just read Rom 11.

Seems you can be grafted in or cut out depending on your Believing Loyalty. Read and see. Most churchianity has fundementally misunderstood election etc. Ad nauseum. 

Hi, Might you expand on that a bit?

 I have found ( been taught)  that Romans nine through eleven is the reveal by Paul of God's plan for Israel. Also the subject and title of a book by my former boss, "God's Plan For Israel: A Study Of Romans 9-11"  as taken from a series of sermons an expository presentation word by word  verse by verse. Also still available as the sermons online should someone wish to look them up.

Paul  transitioned at the end of  what we call chapter 8 of his letter to the saints at Rome to address Jews specifically with what will be happening (A prophetic  reveal).

[Vine Abider]

I've heard an old saint say it's like this, "Before entering the gates of heaven on that side of the gate it will be written, 'Chosen from before the foundation of the world!' Then after entering one will look back and on that side of the gate it will say, "Whosoever will!'"

Can we wrap our minds around this idea?  No, and neither was it intended we should.

[FJK]

25 minutes ago, Vine Abider said:

I've heard an old saint say it's like this, "Before entering the gates of heaven on that side of the gate it will be written, 'Chosen from before the foundation of the world!' Then after entering one will look back and on that side of the gate it will say, "Whosoever will!'"

Can we wrap our minds around this idea?  No, and neither was it intended we should.

That's both an interesting and practical way to look at it.

[steve morrow]

FOLLOW  WHO  ???

 

ACTS 20:29  for I know this that after  MY  departing shall  ---  grievous wolves enter in among you  --  not sparing the flock  --- 

--20:30-- also of your own selves shall men arise  ---  speaking perverse things to draw away diciples after them  ---

 

JOB 40:8  wilt thou also disannul my judgement  ---  wilt thou condemn  ME  that thou mayest be righteous ---

 

MATTHEW 8:22  BUT  JESUS  SAID  ---  follow  ME  and let the dead bury their dead

 

PROVERBS 21:16  the man that wandereth out of the way of understanding  ---  SHALL  REMAIN  IN  THE  CONGREGATION  OF  THE  DEAD

 

2 TIMOTHY 2:7  consider what I say  ---  AND  THE  LORD  ---  GIVE  THEE  UNDERSTANDING  IN  ALL  THINGS

 

2 TIMOTHY 1:8 be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our  LORD  nor of me  HIS  prisoner --- but be thou partaker of the afflictions of  --THE  GOSPEL--  according to the   --POWER  OF  GOD--

--1:9-- who hath saved us and  --CALLED--  us with an holy   --CALLING--    not according    --TO  OUR  WORKS--   but according to  HIS  own purpose and grace  ---which was given us  --   in  CHRIST  JESUS  --  BEFORE  THE  WORLD  BEGAN---

 

PSALM 33:4  for the word of  THE  LORD  is right  ---  AND  ALL  HIS  WORKS  ARE  DONE  IN  TRUTH ---

 

2 THESSALONIANS 2:13  but we are bound to give thanks always to  GOD  for you brethren beloved of  THE  LORD  because  GOD  ---HATH    ---    FROM   THE  BEGINNING  CHOSEN   ---   YOU  TO  SALVATION  THROUGH  SANCTIFICATION  OF  THE  SPIRIT  AND  BELIEF  OF  THE  TRUTH---

 

JOHN 6:63  it is the spirit that quickeneth  --THE  FLESH  PROFITETH  NOTHING--   the words   --THAT  I  SPEAK--  unto you they are spirit and they are life 

 

1 PETER 1:2  --elect--  according to the foreknowledge of  --GOD  THE  FATHER--   through sanctification of the spirit unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of   --JESUS  CHRIST--   grace unto you and peace be multiplied

 

ROMANS 2:11  for there is  --NO RESPECT--  of persons with  GOD 

 

 

LOVING  THE  LORD  JESUS  CHRIST 

 

 

[FreeGrace]

On 3/4/2023 at 2:46 PM, FJK said:

Could anyone that believes in this, or disbelieves in it, explain it to me?

I really don't know exactly what it is, all I know is from the few that I have met over the years that profess it and it seems to mean that only a certain select few who were chosen from the beginning will find themselves entering heaven and it is just plain foolish for anyone else to think they may to, or to preach the Gospel to those who haven't heard it since it won't make any difference in eternal outcomes for them at all whether they hear it or not.

This (my understanding) of it seems like it may be in serious error, I need more knowledge of some kind to form a truer understanding of it.

The key to understanding "predestination" is to study the verses that mention it.

Romans 8-

29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Eph 1-

In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—

11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will

So, in Rom 8:29 we see clearly that predestination is about believers being predestined "to be conformed to the image of His Son".  That that will occur WHEN believers are resurrected and receive a glorified body like His.  In the meantime, believers are commanded to be "Christ-like", which can only be accomplished through the filling of the Holy Spirit.

In Eph 1 we clearly see that believers are predestined for adoption to sonship.  The word "us" in both v.4 and v.5 is clearly defined in 1:19 as "us who believe".  So Paul's use of "us" means believers.  Believers are chosen/elected and believers are predestined.

So, neither election nor predestination are to salvation.

[steve morrow]

FJK  AND  ALL   

 

LUKE 21:34 and take heed to yourselves lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting and drunkenness ---and cares of this life---  and so that day come upon you unawares 

--21:35--  for as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth 

--21:36-- WATCH  YOU  THEREFORE  AND  PRAY  ALWAYS  ---  THAT  YOU  MAY  BE  ACCOUNTED  WORTHY  ---  TO  ESCAPE  ALL  THESE  THINGS  THAT  SHALL COME  TO  PASS  ---  AND TO  STAND  BEFORE  THE  SON  OF  MAN --- 

 

PSALM 119:36  incline my heart unto thy testimonies and not to covetousness 

EZEKIEL 33:31   and they come unto thee as the people cometh and they sit before thee as my people and they hear thy words but they will not do them for with their mouth they show much love but their heart goeth  after their covetousness 

EPHESIANS 5:5  FOR  THIS  YOU  KNOW  THAT  NO  WHOREMONGER  NOR  UNCLEAN  PERSON  ***NOR  COVETOUS  MAN ***  WHO  IS  AN  IDOLATER  HATH  ANY  INHERITANCE  IN  THE  KINGDOM  OF  CHRIST  AND  OF  GOD 

 

PSALM 25:10  all the paths of  THE  LORD  are mercy and truth unto such as keep his covenant  and    ---HIS  TESTIMONIES---

 

JOHN 5:29  and shall come forth they that have done good unto the resurrection of life and they that have done evil unto the resurrection of damnation

 

LOVING  THE  LORD  JESUS  CHRIST