pointer Posted September 25, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 636 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/11/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted September 25, 2006 Abraham was justified before the Law was given, as was Israel (Jacob). They were not under Mosaic Law, but they were under natural law before they were justified. Mosaic Law now applies to no-one, but it may be useful as a guide. Abraham and Jacob were justified by their faith in God. When I said that the Law was nailed to the cross at the crucifixion it was a figure of speach It is of course a figure of speech. The plain fact is that the Scripture states that the Law has been taken away. It is therefore quite erroneous to state that it is present, i.e. in force. if you believe that Christs crucifixion was for your sins then you are redeemed from the law by that faith. Indeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pointer Posted September 25, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 636 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/11/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted September 25, 2006 The Law of Christ is not at all different than the law of Moses. They are the same. They are not remotely the same. The Christian does not sacrifice bulls and goats. 'It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.' Gal 5:1 NIV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted September 25, 2006 Share Posted September 25, 2006 The Law of Christ is not at all different than the law of Moses. They are the same. They are not remotely the same. The Christian does not sacrifice bulls and goats. 'It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.' Gal 5:1 NIV Christ set us free from the bondage of sin. The law is not bondage. As for the law of Christ, it is not based upon the sacrifice of animals, but it is based upon sacrifice. We still have a sacrificial system. It is based upon a better sacrifice, better blood and a better High Priest. Even the writer of Hebrews states that the Torah was modified where the priesthood is concerned. However, the Torah itself was neither abolished nor replaced. The moral commandments and standard of righteousness are the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pointer Posted September 25, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 636 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/11/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted September 25, 2006 The Law of Christ is not at all different than the law of Moses. They are the same. They are not remotely the same. The Christian does not sacrifice bulls and goats. 'It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.' Gal 5:1 NIV Christ set us free from the bondage of sin. Christ took away the Law. Scripture says so. Beware legalism. The moral commandments and standard of righteousness are the same. They are not. The 'law of love' is much higher, and it is fatal to suppose otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted September 25, 2006 Share Posted September 25, 2006 QUOTE Christ set us free from the bondage of sin. Christ took away the Law. Scripture says so. Beware legalism. Christ did not take away the law. He took away the curse of the law. Try reading your Bible. QUOTE The moral commandments and standard of righteousness are the same. They are not. The 'law of love' is much higher, and it is fatal to suppose otherwise. Duh... Love is the essence of the moral commandments. Do you know what "moral" means? Love is the basis of the Torah of Moses. The Torah of Moses hangs on loving God, and loving your neighbor. Even Jesus said that. Like I said.. Try reading your Bible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pointer Posted September 25, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 636 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/11/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted September 25, 2006 QUOTE Christ set us free from the bondage of sin. Christ took away the Law. Scripture says so. Beware legalism. Christ did not take away the law. Paul wrote otherwise. QUOTE The moral commandments and standard of righteousness are the same. They are not. The 'law of love' is much higher, and it is fatal to suppose otherwise. Duh... Love is the essence of the moral commandments. Of course it is. But before the cross, there was insufficient motivation to love. The converted person lives by love, not 'by numbers', running around after laws, many of which are now quite ridiculous and impractical anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted September 25, 2006 Share Posted September 25, 2006 QuoteChrist did not take away the law. Paul wrote otherwise. Paul was a Torah observant Jew. He remained Torah observant to the end of his life. He did not eat bacon or shrimp. He considered himself a pharisee even after becoming a believer. You clearly do not understand Paul. Paul NEVER said that Christ did away with the law. Not one place and I defy you to prove otherwise. Everything Paul had to say about the negatively applied to those who sought to achieve righteousness by it. QUOTE Duh... Love is the essence of the moral commandments. Of course it is. But before the cross, there was insufficient motivation to love. The converted person lives by love, not 'by numbers', running around after laws, many of which are now quite ridiculous and impractical anyway. The believer is more, not less accountable before God to keep his laws. The believer is indwelt by the Holy Spirit, and is empowered to keep God's commandments even more so today than the Israelites were. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pointer Posted September 25, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 636 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/11/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted September 25, 2006 Christ did not take away the law. Paul wrote otherwise. Paul was a Torah observant Jew. He remained Torah observant to the end of his life. He did not eat bacon or shrimp. He considered himself a pharisee even after becoming a believer. You clearly do not understand Paul. Can you find support for these ideas? Paul NEVER said that Christ did away with the law. Not one place and I defy you to prove otherwise. I have done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted September 25, 2006 Share Posted September 25, 2006 QUOTE Paul was a Torah observant Jew. He remained Torah observant to the end of his life. He did not eat bacon or shrimp. He considered himself a pharisee even after becoming a believer. You clearly do not understand Paul. Can you find support for these ideas? Paul went under a Naraite vow. Acts 18 (which also includes sacrifices). Paul performed sacrifices in Acts 21 to prove that he was not teaching people to abandon the law of Moses. Paul declared in Acts 23:6 when on trial, "I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee" Paul circumcized Timothy (Acts 16:3) Paul celebrated the Festivals and made sure he was in Jerusalem for that purpose (Acts 18:21). Had Paul been anti-Torah, had he repudiated the Torah of Moses, none of that would be true. QUOTE Paul NEVER said that Christ did away with the law. Not one place and I defy you to prove otherwise. I have done. You have only provided verses like the passage in Col 2, and Romans 6 which do not pertain to the Torah of Moses. You have only provided your assumptions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pointer Posted September 25, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 636 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/11/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted September 25, 2006 Paul was a Torah observant Jew. He remained Torah observant to the end of his life. He did not eat bacon or shrimp. He considered himself a pharisee even after becoming a believer. You clearly do not understand Paul. Can you find support for these ideas? Paul went under a Naraite vow. Acts 18 (which also includes sacrifices). Paul performed sacrifices in Acts 21 to prove that he was not teaching people to abandon the law of Moses. Paul declared in Acts 23:6 when on trial, "I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee" Paul circumcized Timothy (Acts 16:3) Paul celebrated the Festivals and made sure he was in Jerusalem for that purpose (Acts 18:21). Had Paul been anti-Torah, had he repudiated the Torah of Moses, none of that would be true. Paul's 'Jewish' actions were entirely to make it impossible for Jews to accuse him or Timothy of law breaking, which would have unnecessarily prevented them from preaching the gospel. His Nazirite vow was presumably taken before his conversion, and there is no evidence whatever that Paul celebrated any Jewish festival. He may well have wanted to have been in Jerusalem when there were festivals, as it gave him enormous scope due to Jews from all over the diaspora being present at these times. To find out what Paul really thought, see this: 'If anyone else thinks he has reasons to put confidence in the flesh, I have more: circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; in regard to the law, a Pharisee; as for zeal, persecuting the church; as for legalistic righteousness, faultless. But whatever was to my profit I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith.' Phil 3:4-9 NIV QUOTE Paul NEVER said that Christ did away with the law. Not one place and I defy you to prove otherwise. I have done.You have only provided verses like the passage in Col 2, and Romans 6 which do not pertain to the Torah of Moses. You have only provided your assumptions. How is it that you have taken this long to object? What else can Colossians refer to but Mosaic Law? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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