Accountability When Elders Sin

[Michael37]

The Scriptural directive to publicly rebuke elders who fall into sin is there for a reason. 

Quote:

The Bible gives a very clearly defined method for dealing with sin in church elders.

1 Timothy 5:19-21 gives us the answers. In this passage, God prescribes a system precisely for these circumstances. The apostle Paul issues direct commands for how the church must deal with an elder who is caught in sin. He says, "Do not receive an accusation against an elder except from two or three witnesses. Those who are sinning rebuke in the presence of all, that the rest also may fear. I charge you before God and the Lord Jesus Christ and the elect angels that you observe these things without prejudice, doing nothing with partiality."¹² [BingChat]

This is a deterrent to the leaders of fellowships, until it isn't, and into sin they are drawn. 

The letters to the seven churches indicate the need for sin among the saints to be repented of.

[AdHoc]

1 hour ago, Michael37 said:

The Scriptural directive to publicly rebuke elders who fall into sin is there for a reason. 

Quote:

The Bible gives a very clearly defined method for dealing with sin in church elders.

1 Timothy 5:19-21 gives us the answers. In this passage, God prescribes a system precisely for these circumstances. The apostle Paul issues direct commands for how the church must deal with an elder who is caught in sin. He says, "Do not receive an accusation against an elder except from two or three witnesses. Those who are sinning rebuke in the presence of all, that the rest also may fear. I charge you before God and the Lord Jesus Christ and the elect angels that you observe these things without prejudice, doing nothing with partiality."¹² [BingChat]

This is a deterrent to the leaders of fellowships, until it isn't, and into sin they are drawn. 

The letters to the seven churches indicate the need for sin among the saints to be repented of.

Correct. Just like anything else created, the Church has government. That is, it has rules governing its function just like the forces in an atom or gravity on earth. When our Lord announced His Church He introduced the two pillars that it would stand on, (i) resurrection (the gates of Hades being opened) and (ii) the Keys of the Kingdom - who would be allowed into the Lord's Kingdom when He set it up on earth.

In Matthew 18 our Lord gives a concrete example. The first action is for the brother or sister who sees the offense take place, to go PRIVATELY to the offending saint. If the offending saint refuses to acknowledge their sin, the accuser must get at least TWO, but preferably THREE witnesses, and go to the offender PRIVATELY. This step in the process is to protect all parties. If the accuser cannot get eye witnesses the case is over and the good name of the accused is preserved. If, however, the witnesses are found, they form a jury and establish the guilt of the offender. The offender has one last chance to repent and  the matter will remain secret. But if the offender remains stubborn, or feels that he is unjustly accused, the WITNESSES must bring it before the WHOLE ASSEMBLY.

When our Lord gave the Keys of the Kingdom, He gave them to the WHOLE ASSEMBLY. Even an Apostle must act WITH the whole Assembly. Look at 1st Corinthians 5 where there was a brother committing incest;

 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

The Elders are not higher than the Assembly. Their job is not to  judge and deal with the problem. Their job is to maintain ORDER. The WHOLE ASSEMBLY must be the judge. The whole process is the same whether it is an Elder or not.

To show the power of the Assembly, we read that the Apostle has great power, and is set "first" in Office in the Church (1st Cor.12:28). This confirmed by them being mentioned first in both 1st Corinthians 12:29 and Ephesians 4:11. But the Assembly is their TEST. Our Lord Jesus commended the Church in Ephesus for testing those who called themselves Apostles (Rev.2:2). Elders are no different. They deserve honor and respect and no one must accuse them lightly. And if they have reason to accuse an Elder, the same process as Matthew 18 applies. That is, SECRETLY at first. Remember Noah and Ham.

[Michael37]

31 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

Correct. Just like anything else created, the Church has government. That is, it has rules governing its function just like the forces in an atom or gravity on earth. When our Lord announced His Church He introduced the two pillars that it would stand on, (i) resurrection (the gates of Hades being opened) and (ii) the Keys of the Kingdom - who would be allowed into the Lord's Kingdom when He set it up on earth.

In Matthew 18 our Lord gives a concrete example. The first action is for the brother or sister who sees the offense take place, to go PRIVATELY to the offending saint. If the offending saint refuses to acknowledge their sin, the accuser must get at least TWO, but preferably THREE witnesses, and go to the offender PRIVATELY. This step in the process is to protect all parties. If the accuser cannot get eye witnesses the case is over and the good name of the accused is preserved. If, however, the witnesses are found, they form a jury and establish the guilt of the offender. The offender has one last chance to repent and  the matter will remain secret. But if the offender remains stubborn, or feels that he is unjustly accused, the WITNESSES must bring it before the WHOLE ASSEMBLY.

When our Lord gave the Keys of the Kingdom, He gave them to the WHOLE ASSEMBLY. Even an Apostle must act WITH the whole Assembly. Look at 1st Corinthians 5 where there was a brother committing incest;

 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

The Elders are not higher than the Assembly. Their job is not to  judge and deal with the problem. Their job is to maintain ORDER. The WHOLE ASSEMBLY must be the judge. The whole process is the same whether it is an Elder or not.

To show the power of the Assembly, we read that the Apostle has great power, and is set "first" in Office in the Church (1st Cor.12:28). This confirmed by them being mentioned first in both 1st Corinthians 12:29 and Ephesians 4:11. But the Assembly is their TEST. Our Lord Jesus commended the Church in Ephesus for testing those who called themselves Apostles (Rev.2:2). Elders are no different. They deserve honor and respect and no one must accuse them lightly. And if they have reason to accuse an Elder, the same process as Matthew 18 applies. That is, SECRETLY at first. Remember Noah and Ham.

I am truly edified by your confirming word, @AdHoc

[NConly]

4 hours ago, Michael37 said:

The Scriptural directive to publicly rebuke elders who fall into sin is there for a reason. 

I have been thinking this verse meant all the church not all the public.

[Dennis1209]

4 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Correct. Just like anything else created, the Church has government. That is, it has rules governing its function just like the forces in an atom or gravity on earth. When our Lord announced His Church He introduced the two pillars that it would stand on, (i) resurrection (the gates of Hades being opened) and (ii) the Keys of the Kingdom - who would be allowed into the Lord's Kingdom when He set it up on earth.

In Matthew 18 our Lord gives a concrete example. The first action is for the brother or sister who sees the offense take place, to go PRIVATELY to the offending saint. If the offending saint refuses to acknowledge their sin, the accuser must get at least TWO, but preferably THREE witnesses, and go to the offender PRIVATELY. This step in the process is to protect all parties. If the accuser cannot get eye witnesses the case is over and the good name of the accused is preserved. If, however, the witnesses are found, they form a jury and establish the guilt of the offender. The offender has one last chance to repent and  the matter will remain secret. But if the offender remains stubborn, or feels that he is unjustly accused, the WITNESSES must bring it before the WHOLE ASSEMBLY.

When our Lord gave the Keys of the Kingdom, He gave them to the WHOLE ASSEMBLY. Even an Apostle must act WITH the whole Assembly. Look at 1st Corinthians 5 where there was a brother committing incest;

 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

The Elders are not higher than the Assembly. Their job is not to  judge and deal with the problem. Their job is to maintain ORDER. The WHOLE ASSEMBLY must be the judge. The whole process is the same whether it is an Elder or not.

To show the power of the Assembly, we read that the Apostle has great power, and is set "first" in Office in the Church (1st Cor.12:28). This confirmed by them being mentioned first in both 1st Corinthians 12:29 and Ephesians 4:11. But the Assembly is their TEST. Our Lord Jesus commended the Church in Ephesus for testing those who called themselves Apostles (Rev.2:2). Elders are no different. They deserve honor and respect and no one must accuse them lightly. And if they have reason to accuse an Elder, the same process as Matthew 18 applies. That is, SECRETLY at first. Remember Noah and Ham.

I want to discuss and explore the topic of “Elders” further with you both. I realize this OP topic relates to church Elders (New Covenant), not elders of the Jews, Old Testament, or necessarily age-related. This subject piqued my interest with the age-old question, who are the 24 Elders of Revelation 4:4?

It appears the office of “Elder” is a leadership position in the body of the church of Christ, also synonymous with other names.

The Jewish eldership was transferred from the old dispensation to the new. “The creation of the office of elder is nowhere recorded in the New Testament, as in the case of deacons and apostles, because the latter offices were created to meet new and special emergencies, while the former was transmitted from the earlies times. In other words, the office of elder was the only permanent essential office of the church under either dispensation.”

The “elders” of the New Testament church were the “pastors” (Eph. 4:11), “bishops or overseers” (Acts 20:28), “leaders” and “rulers” (Heb. 13:7; 1 Thess. 5:12) of the flock. Everywhere in the New Testament bishop and presbyter are titles given to one and the same officer of the Christian church. He who is called presbyter or elder on account of his age or gravity is also called bishop or overseer with reference to the duty that lay upon him (Titus 1:5–7; Acts 20:17–28; Phil. 1:1).^[1]

I assume the “Elders” of this New Testament thread refer to Shepards, leaders, pastors, bishops, and deacons of the church of Christ.

Referencing the Elders of Revelation 4:4, is there a class of Elder heavenly angels given crowns as some theologians and scholars allege? Or is this symbolic of the New Testament church government and a council?   

 

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^[1] Easton, M. G. Illustrated Bible Dictionary and Treasury of Biblical History, Biography, Geography, Doctrine, and Literature 1893: 217–218. Print.

[Michael37]

9 hours ago, NConly said:

I have been thinking this verse meant all the church not all the public.

Sorry, yes, I should have specified public meetings of the saints, which are open to the public, as frequently advertised on signage and in various media.

The media picks up on Christian leaders who are in the public eye, so it is difficult to keep a lid on some in-house business. Plenty of dirty denominational laundry on YouTube for all to be made aware of.

[WilliamL]

14 hours ago, Michael37 said:

This is a deterrent to the leaders of fellowships, until it isn't, and into sin they are drawn. 

This only works where there is a group of elders of equal authority in a congregation.

But in too many churches, one elder, "our pastor," is accorded a higher level of authority than all the others. In such cases, again too often, that one man then begins to act as the final authority over all issues of doctrine and practice.

It is wise to avoid such churches. This is how the early Church began to fall into man-worship, epitomized later on by the doctrine of papal infallibility in the Catholic Church.

[jesusandliberty]

Didn't Paul also rebuke Peter in front of everyone in Galatians? 

[farouk]

19 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

This only works where there is a group of elders of equal authority in a congregation.

But in too many churches, one elder, "our pastor," is accorded a higher level of authority than all the others. In such cases, again too often, that one man then begins to act as the final authority over all issues of doctrine and practice.

It is wise to avoid such churches. This is how the early Church began to fall into man-worship, epitomized later on by the doctrine of papal infallibility in the Catholic Church.

@WilliamL Good point, indeed.

[Michael37]

14 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

This only works where there is a group of elders of equal authority in a congregation.

But in too many churches, one elder, "our pastor," is accorded a higher level of authority than all the others. In such cases, again too often, that one man then begins to act as the final authority over all issues of doctrine and practice.

It is wise to avoid such churches. This is how the early Church began to fall into man-worship, epitomized later on by the doctrine of papal infallibility in the Catholic Church.

There are some good and faithful servants, but there are also some terrible aberrations.