Horns On Heads Of Beasts

[Triton57]

3 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Wow! There is so much great information here... certainly too much to address in a single response, but what is clearly evident is how much of the Scriptures you must have read and studied and interpreted over the years. For myself, I have only studied Daniel and have almost completed Revelation - maybe another 2 months.

But anyway, rather that pick apart and discuss each comment you might be willing to entertain a sort of study / interpretation sharing that speaks to many of the events and actors in your post and certainly in this topic offereed my Michael37.

If interested, we can learn of the others interpretations as we might move through the more important chapters / verses in Daniel.

The one thing I'm absolutely sure about after 20 years studying the Bible to understand the prophetic narrative it lays out, is that I'll never stop learning and adjusting my thoughts to scripture the many times I have been and will be wrong in certain understanding. That's what's great about sharpening iron with others and getting perspectives I may not have thought of before. Sometimes they completely shift the paradigm and whole new understanding suddenly bursts onto the scene.

It's actually in my return to study the visions of Daniel and John that I think some pieces I'd learned here and there from others, and my re-examination, came to a head and the way I thought about the 4 kingdoms completely changed with some insights I didn't recall ever having before, much of it touched on in discussions on this forum. Sometimes it's good to approach from a direction other than the typical back and forth in the battle of well-entrenched ideas.

That being said, I'm always interested in digging into scripture and in my return to study Daniel in the fall of 2023 was approached in much the way you're thinking, one prophecy at a time.

However, I think what is necessary is also difficult for many who have been studying prophecy for some time to do. I think each prophecy needs to be viewed fresh as though it's the first time studying it. All the mental connections that have been made through study and teachings of men need to be put to the side for a moment and we need to examine each prophecy as if it stands on its own, not an easy thing to do for me. We may not be able to make connections or fully interpret it yet, but I think that shouldn't come until the next step.

Sometimes our past accepted connections between visions can be built on shaky assumptions and I feel it's important to only make connections that can be logically connected, building from a foundation of understanding each vision on its own. I think that while hidden in plain sight many times, God gave us everything we need to know to understand prophecy within the text combined with a logical mind and the guidance of the Holy Spirit. It's really the only way any kind of common understanding can be arrived at if we remove as much of our assumptions as possible and rely on faith, or trust, that God said what He meant and meant what He said.

Even then there are things, the 4 kingdoms is a great example of this, that may seem connected to other visions or prophecies, but contextual hints within the visions and prophecies themselves tell us at what time in the prophetic narrative they take place, and sometimes that excludes the seemingly obvious connection logically.

Once we know exactly what is being revealed just in the one vision, some of which is directly interpreted for us in the exposition itself, we can search the scripture for understanding symbolic interpretations of things.

Then, as we understand each vision or prophecy on its own, is when we start to make tentative connections between the visions, based on things like where each fall on the prophetic timeline, usually determine partially from the vision itself, but also all the contextual clues throughout scripture of similar depictions of the same events. The sixth seal and day of the Lord are good examples of timing queues that are found throughout scripture and all speak of the same point in time on the prophetic narrative.

Quote

Specifically, Daniel 2, which reveals, in my understanding, the "blueprint" for everything that would come into being over the following 2700 years.... meaning, the 4 kingdoms represent all the established and authorized kingdoms that God will decree that have come out of t he sea.... only these 4 come out of the sea and, where the 4th kingdom, in it's final form must continue until His second coming. God has limited the number of actors and kingdoms in Daniel to a relatively few so we can focus on them and their respective actors only. This will transfer to the book of Revelation without any hiccups. So, if you would like to do this we might simply start with Chapter 2 and what are your 4 kingdoms and then move on (after discussing the "interpretative sequence of verses" given to us in 2:41-45. Then, on to chapter 7. Please let me know if this interests you and all others can certainly comment on each of our responses...

Daniel 2 is pretty much agreed among most people as consisting of 4 kingdoms. Admittedly to interpret beyond the head in identifying the other 3 kingdoms requires other scripture and historical knowledge.

1) Babylon (Nebuchadnezzar) is the head of gold
2) Medo-Persia (Achaemenid - Darius/Cyrus) came after as depicted in Daniel 5
3) Greece (Macedonian - Alexander the Great/4 generals) defeated the Achaemenid Empire
4) Rome (many leaders) consumed the 4 empires that sprouted from the Macedonian Empire and eventually died the death of 1,000 cuts after the intermarriages attempting to hold the Western and Eastern legs of the empire together failed.

That's my basic understanding of the 4 kingdoms. It's usually the feet and toes where the interpretations begin to separate in my experience. It's also usually complicated by preconceived connections of other prophecies brought into the interpretation of Daniel 2, which is why I think it's important to start fresh and interpret as much of the vision with the vision to see where that lands before bringing anything else into the mix, we'll get into that next.

[Charlie744]

12 minutes ago, Triton57 said:

The one thing I'm absolutely sure about after 20 years studying the Bible to understand the prophetic narrative it lays out, is that I'll never stop learning and adjusting my thoughts to scripture the many times I have been and will be wrong in certain understanding. That's what's great about sharpening iron with others and getting perspectives I may not have thought of before. Sometimes they completely shift the paradigm and whole new understanding suddenly bursts onto the scene.

It's actually in my return to study the visions of Daniel and John that I think some pieces I'd learned here and there from others, and my re-examination, came to a head and the way I thought about the 4 kingdoms completely changed with some insights I didn't recall ever having before, much of it touched on in discussions on this forum. Sometimes it's good to approach from a direction other than the typical back and forth in the battle of well-entrenched ideas.

That being said, I'm always interested in digging into scripture and in my return to study Daniel in the fall of 2023 was approached in much the way you're thinking, one prophecy at a time.

However, I think what is necessary is also difficult for many who have been studying prophecy for some time to do. I think each prophecy needs to be viewed fresh as though it's the first time studying it. All the mental connections that have been made through study and teachings of men need to be put to the side for a moment and we need to examine each prophecy as if it stands on its own, not an easy thing to do for me. We may not be able to make connections or fully interpret it yet, but I think that shouldn't come until the next step.

Sometimes our past accepted connections between visions can be built on shaky assumptions and I feel it's important to only make connections that can be logically connected, building from a foundation of understanding each vision on its own. I think that while hidden in plain sight many times, God gave us everything we need to know to understand prophecy within the text combined with a logical mind and the guidance of the Holy Spirit. It's really the only way any kind of common understanding can be arrived at if we remove as much of our assumptions as possible and rely on faith, or trust, that God said what He meant and meant what He said.

Even then there are things, the 4 kingdoms is a great example of this, that may seem connected to other visions or prophecies, but contextual hints within the visions and prophecies themselves tell us at what time in the prophetic narrative they take place, and sometimes that excludes the seemingly obvious connection logically.

Once we know exactly what is being revealed just in the one vision, some of which is directly interpreted for us in the exposition itself, we can search the scripture for understanding symbolic interpretations of things.

Then, as we understand each vision or prophecy on its own, is when we start to make tentative connections between the visions, based on things like where each fall on the prophetic timeline, usually determine partially from the vision itself, but also all the contextual clues throughout scripture of similar depictions of the same events. The sixth seal and day of the Lord are good examples of timing queues that are found throughout scripture and all speak of the same point in time on the prophetic narrative.

Daniel 2 is pretty much agreed among most people as consisting of 4 kingdoms. Admittedly to interpret beyond the head in identifying the other 3 kingdoms requires other scripture and historical knowledge.

1) Babylon (Nebuchadnezzar) is the head of gold
2) Medo-Persia (Achaemenid - Darius/Cyrus) came after as depicted in Daniel 5
3) Greece (Macedonian - Alexander the Great/4 generals) defeated the Achaemenid Empire
4) Rome (many leaders) consumed the 4 empires that sprouted from the Macedonian Empire and eventually died the death of 1,000 cuts after the intermarriages attempting to hold the Western and Eastern legs of the empire together failed.

That's my basic understanding of the 4 kingdoms. It's usually the feet and toes where the interpretations begin to separate in my experience. It's also usually complicated by preconceived connections of other prophecies brought into the interpretation of Daniel 2, which is why I think it's important to start fresh and interpret as much of the vision with the vision to see where that lands before bringing anything else into the mix, we'll get into that next.

I wish I had the ability to respond in such a manner!!!!! Absolutely wonderful writing and thoughts.  And I greatly appreciate your comments on the 4 kingdoms and I would like to take that as an opportunity to continue to discuss Daniel. 

 

In light of your response, please note that the ONLY book of the bible I have studied, and which I was not interested in studying it at the time, is Daniel. Someone suggested I read and understand Daniel before any attempt is made to try and understand Revelation - which no one wanted to discuss or study....Consequently, I began to read what I now find is the two very different camps of interpreting Daniel. One set of scholars have thrown much of Daniel forward into the end times while many other scholars sit on the other side of the fence and interpret Daniel more historical - how well can we match the events and actors to our history books. When they find they do not continue to match our history books, then they too begin to throw Daniel some 2000 years in the future.

As a result of learning these two major interpretations where almost all folks have accepted, I thought it was important for me to perform my own study using these two "rails," if you will, and walk between these tracks taking advantage of their scholarship - left or right. Although I had no knowledge of Daniel whatsoever, I had these two camps to keep me in some sort of straight line.

 

Meaning, I had no preconceived understanding of Daniel and I had no dog in either camp... I simply found it necessary to try and understand their interpretations and study on them for agreement. change, whatever.

After 5 long years of this I completely my study and interpretations of the 12 chapters and have never been through such a more difficult, exhasting and frustrating endeavor. And I can also say it was the most important and rewarding time of my entire life. The end result was that MOST of Daniel, in my opinion had been seriously misinterpreted.  And most scholars, academics and theologians of today may put their own "voice" to their commentary but they do not deviate from those sholars who have already presented their "accepted interpretations." 

So, that is the history of my last 5 years and now I am focusing on Revelation which, after my work on Daniel, reveals that "Today's accepted interpretations" of Revelation, as incomplete as they are, have also been misinterpreted by the same misinterpretations that were thrown forward from Daniel.... when they don't work, they are simply not intepreted and left blank.

 

So, if you are interested, chapter 2 of Daniel. 

And let me start with the stucture of chapter 2 and get your thoughts In the early part of chapter 2, Gabriel gives us the 4 kingdoms of Babylon, Medes-Persia, Greece and then Rome - although Rome is the only one not specifically identified as Rome... but there can be no dispute it is Rome - specifically pagan Rome.

This information is presented in the "Dream Sequence" or the big picture, the summary of the 4 and only 4 kingdoms that will come out of the sea as decreed by God. This sets the framework, blueprint where EVERYTHING will take place until His return. Later in Daniel - verses 41-45, Gabriel gives Daniel the "Interpretation Sequence" of verses. These represent events and actors that are not in chronological order to the "Dream Sequence" verses, but they represent the "details" of events that will fall WITHIN the previously provided Dream Sequence of verses - the 4 kingdoms. Chapter 2 is the "complete" big picture or blueprint that gives us a complete summary of His plan of salvation for mankind (this is also one of the major reasons it took over 5 years to unpack Daniel - the later chapters and verses were inconsistent and incomplete because of not getting back to chapter 2 and constantly looking at it a very different manner. By the way, this teaching method or method of presentation of providing the summary verses first, then the details that fall within them, as opposed to all verses largely being considered as chronological takes place in the Hebrew chapters beginning with chapter 7 onward and even in Revelation.

So, I think we agree on the 4 kingdoms but before we move on to the "interpretation sequence" verses in 41-45, I would like to propose to you a very, very important deviation in interpreting two of the "Dream sequence" verses in 2:34-35. And unless these two verses are interpreted in a completely new light, much of Daniel will be .... lost.

So, Daniel 2:34, is critical - it specifically speaks of the Stone (Messiah) that strikes the feet (not the toes) of the 4th kingdom beast. The 4th kingdom beast is indeed pagan Rome - including the feet made of iron, however, God has purposely placed the clay WITHIN  the feet of pagan Rome. This "clay" symbolically represesnt His chosen people at the time of His FIRST coming who are symbolically kept within the pagan Roman Empire and subjugated and controlled. They represent all of the Jews at His first coming. Jesus, the Stone, will symbolically strike the feet and break apart (not destroy) the iron and clay components. The Stone (Jesus) did not come to destroy but to divide. This symbolically striking will break into pieces the  clay from the iron into two groups (which will be discussed in the "interpreation sequence" verses. But the 4 kingdoms obviously continue after the cross (symbolically striking the feet). However, verse 2:35 does indeed represent God but it describes His return at the end of time to judge.  The Stone is the Messiah, the Mountain is God. There is some 2000 years between 2:34 and 2:35 where God will soon begin to reveal all the events / actors, etc., that will take place during His first and second comings.

 

So, I ask you to consider this and think about it.... please let me know if you want to continue after this intial but most significant interpretation ... without this, there is nothing that would make sense  to you regarding my interpretations. 

 

Thanks so much.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Triton57]

22 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

I wish I had the ability to respond in such a manner!!!!! Absolutely wonderful writing and thoughts.  And I greatly appreciate your comments on the 4 kingdoms and I would like to take that as an opportunity to continue to discuss Daniel.

In light of your response, please note that the ONLY book of the bible I have studied, and which I was not interested in studying it at the time, is Daniel. Someone suggested I read and understand Daniel before any attempt is made to try and understand Revelation - which no one wanted to discuss or study....Consequently, I began to read what I now find is the two very different camps of interpreting Daniel. One set of scholars have thrown much of Daniel forward into the end times while many other scholars sit on the other side of the fence and interpret Daniel more historical - how well can we match the events and actors to our history books. When they find they do not continue to match our history books, then they too begin to throw Daniel some 2000 years in the future.

As a result of learning these two major interpretations where almost all folks have accepted, I thought it was important for me to perform my own study using these two "rails," if you will, and walk between these tracks taking advantage of their scholarship - left or right. Although I had no knowledge of Daniel whatsoever, I had these two camps to keep me in some sort of straight line.

Meaning, I had no preconceived understanding of Daniel and I had no dog in either camp... I simply found it necessary to try and understand their interpretations and study on them for agreement. change, whatever.

After 5 long years of this I completely my study and interpretations of the 12 chapters and have never been through such a more difficult, exhasting and frustrating endeavor. And I can also say it was the most important and rewarding time of my entire life. The end result was that MOST of Daniel, in my opinion had been seriously misinterpreted.  And most scholars, academics and theologians of today may put their own "voice" to their commentary but they do not deviate from those sholars who have already presented their "accepted interpretations." 

So, that is the history of my last 5 years and now I am focusing on Revelation which, after my work on Daniel, reveals that "Today's accepted interpretations" of Revelation, as incomplete as they are, have also been misinterpreted by the same misinterpretations that were thrown forward from Daniel.... when they don't work, they are simply not intepreted and left blank.

I appreciate the way you are approaching the conversation and I had a similar experience when I began to focus on Bible prophecy. I actually began to be interested partially due to the Sumatra earthquake back in the end of 2004. I had never "studied" prophecy, but the extent of the devastation brought to mind Matthew 24:7. I then devoured Chuck Missler's Learn the Bible in 24 Hours, which was probably the first time the Bible stories I learned as a kid suddenly connected in my mind as a historical narrative and the prophetic injection to that narrative became clear. Sadly I was not very good about actually reading the Bible so 2005 was like a shock to reality for me.

However, through all the teachings from Missler and others, I came to study on my own and found that some of the narratives spun didn't quite match what I was finding on my own. But I think it's important to learn from those more studious as we grow in understanding and not throw the baby out with the bathwater. There are still many pieces of invaluable information I gained, yet the overall narrative I find to be in error. Even so, I'm not infallible and that's how I approach the narrative I put together as I continue to study God's Word. To that end, I appreciate the other perspectives. I rarely swallow them whole, but I can't count the number of times I found a piece of scriptural connection or information that I'd never seen.

Revelation was my first book that I really dug into myself and I remember and took pictures of post-it notes laid out on my bed as I tried to organize my understanding of it. Not sure I'll ever fully get there till Yeshua walks us through it, if we really care at that point. But the wholistic narrative has certainly become more clear to me since then and I'm constantly in awe of the interconnectivity of the prophetic narrative woven through scripture here a little and there a little.

It seems to me you are on the same path as I, learn but verify, Acts 17:11.

Quote

So, if you are interested, chapter 2 of Daniel. 

And let me start with the stucture of chapter 2 and get your thoughts In the early part of chapter 2, Gabriel gives us the 4 kingdoms of Babylon, Medes-Persia, Greece and then Rome - although Rome is the only one not specifically identified as Rome... but there can be no dispute it is Rome - specifically pagan Rome.

This information is presented in the "Dream Sequence" or the big picture, the summary of the 4 and only 4 kingdoms that will come out of the sea as decreed by God. This sets the framework, blueprint where EVERYTHING will take place until His return. Later in Daniel - verses 41-45, Gabriel gives Daniel the "Interpretation Sequence" of verses. These represent events and actors that are not in chronological order to the "Dream Sequence" verses, but they represent the "details" of events that will fall WITHIN the previously provided Dream Sequence of verses - the 4 kingdoms. Chapter 2 is the "complete" big picture or blueprint that gives us a complete summary of His plan of salvation for mankind (this is also one of the major reasons it took over 5 years to unpack Daniel - the later chapters and verses were inconsistent and incomplete because of not getting back to chapter 2 and constantly looking at it a very different manner. By the way, this teaching method or method of presentation of providing the summary verses first, then the details that fall within them, as opposed to all verses largely being considered as chronological takes place in the Hebrew chapters beginning with chapter 7 onward and even in Revelation.

So, I think we agree on the 4 kingdoms but before we move on to the "interpretation sequence" verses in 41-45, I would like to propose to you a very, very important deviation in interpreting two of the "Dream sequence" verses in 2:34-35. And unless these two verses are interpreted in a completely new light, much of Daniel will be .... lost.

I would agree that we know Rome is the next in line based on the historical narrative. I think it's important to recognize that the statue as a whole represent the kingdoms of this world in a series of metals that change with each kingdom. Looking forward to John's vision, we see the kingdoms of this world represented as a sequence of heads on the dragon that have fallen through time.

What I also think is important to recognize generally is that the Old Testament is focused on God's relationship with Israel. The New Testament was focused first on God's relationship with those of Israel that would hear His voice, but then that voice turned from the blinded of Israel. The good news and understanding of the spiritual nature of God's kingdom in this world went to the Gentiles, and any of Israel with ears to hear, and continues to this day. But it is very clear that yet unfulfilled prophecy is focused almost exclusively again on Israel and her redemption from blindness into the light.

Indeed it is only because of Israel that Nebuchadnezzar's dream is revealed to us through Daniel in captivity and God using Him to reveal prophetic truth to us. And so the statue representing the kingdoms of this world made of different metals through time has in common with the heads of John, the relationships of those kingdoms to the people of Israel. Indeed, Israel was judged through Babylon, returned through Medo-Persia, tried and foreshadowed through Greece and the Seleucid Empire and its little horn, and ruled over by Rome that consumed the kingdom before it and both ruled over Jerusalem at the time of Christ, and literally paved the roads that would carry the Gospel to the world.

Quote

So, Daniel 2:34, is critical - it specifically speaks of the Stone (Messiah) that strikes the feet (not the toes) of the 4th kingdom beast. The 4th kingdom beast is indeed pagan Rome - including the feet made of iron, however, God has purposely placed the clay WITHIN  the feet of pagan Rome. This "clay" symbolically represesnt His chosen people at the time of His FIRST coming who are symbolically kept within the pagan Roman Empire and subjugated and controlled. They represent all of the Jews at His first coming. Jesus, the Stone, will symbolically strike the feet and break apart (not destroy) the iron and clay components.

See, a way of looking at the iron and clay that I had not considered before! Thinking through it, there is a kind of inability to cleave in the idea of how we are to be separate from the world even though we are in it and should not be partakers in their sin.

John 17:14-19
"I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth."

While the feet and not the toes are mentioned in Daniel 2:43 as being iron mixed with clay, Daniel 2:42 in the interpretation states that the toes of the feet are also part iron and clay. To me, this connects the two together as both being composed of the same mix of iron and clay. That this mixing of iron and clay is in the feet and toes of the statue, given that all the metals before it were representative of sequential nations through time, would seem to indicate a possible 5th kingdom except the fact that it is made partly of Iron, the same metal before that was not weak, and Daniel 2:40-44 speaks of the fourth kingdom as including the legs and the feet in its interpretation.

So just in reading within this prophetic vision itself, it would seem that the legs, feet, and toes are all the fourth kingdom and it is at the end of the existence of this fourth kingdom that it becomes weak, with iron and clay mixing and making it weaker. The idea of God's chosen people being the clay that slowly weakened the Roman empire at its end would also seem to fit with the idea that the stone cut without hands that strikes the statue would overcome all these previous kingdoms and grow to fill the whole earth.

Quote

The Stone (Jesus) did not come to destroy but to divide. This symbolically striking will break into pieces the  clay from the iron into two groups (which will be discussed in the "interpreation sequence" verses. But the 4 kingdoms obviously continue after the cross (symbolically striking the feet). However, verse 2:35 does indeed represent God but it describes His return at the end of time to judge.  The Stone is the Messiah, the Mountain is God. There is some 2000 years between 2:34 and 2:35 where God will soon begin to reveal all the events / actors, etc., that will take place during His first and second comings.

So, I ask you to consider this and think about it.... please let me know if you want to continue after this intial but most significant interpretation ... without this, there is nothing that would make sense  to you regarding my interpretations.

However, would you consider the clay as part of the statue as well, being mixed with the iron? It seems to me that the clay mixed with the iron is part of the very statue that the stone strikes, it's nature being a weakened version of the fourth kingdom. I think there is a very important element of verse 35 that is relevant to this idea.

Daniel 2:35
"Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth."

If the clay represents the chosen of God, then we see the stone cut without hands breaking both the iron and clay together and they, along with the statue as a whole blow away like chaff and are carried away that no place is found for them. This seems to me to be pretty clear language that the statue as a whole, including the clay cease to exist in any meaningful way. This seems more representative of the clay being part of the statue, and therefore the kingdom of this world, that is forever done away with and replaced by the kingdom of God.

So to me the question would seem to be, at what point in history does this elimination of the statue and all of its metals take place? I agree the stone that struck and destroyed the image represents Yeshua. When was the kingdom of God established?

Daniel 2:44
"And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, [but] it [the kingdom set up] shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever."

What kings exist in the days that God sets up a kingdom that will never be destroyed? Since the stone cut without hands strikes the feet in their weakened state representing the end of the once strong kingdom of Rome, we should be able to find in scripture the establishing the kingdom of God, or the kingdom of heaven, toward the end of the Roman Empire that eventually consumes it. Ultimately the stone representing the establishment of the kingdom that grows to a mountain filling the whole earth. While the stone is Christ, it would also seem to be the kingdom He heads, given that the interpretation of the stone is a kingdom.

Furthermore, if the image represents the kingdoms of this world and the stone striking the image represents the kingdom of God destroying the kingdoms of this world and growing into a mountain that fills the whole earth, are there similar depictions regarding the kingdom of God or the kingdom of heaven that similarly speak to a kingdom that cannot be defeated by this world growing from something small to very large?

What are your thoughts on this?

Edited February 5 by Triton57

[Charlie744]

2 hours ago, Triton57 said:

I appreciate the way you are approaching the conversation and I had a similar experience when I began to focus on Bible prophecy. I actually began to be interested partially due to the Sumatra earthquake back in the end of 2004. I had never "studied" prophecy, but the extent of the devastation brought to mind Matthew 24:7. I then devoured Chuck Missler's Learn the Bible in 24 Hours, which was probably the first time the Bible stories I learned as a kid suddenly connected in my mind as a historical narrative and the prophetic injection to that narrative became clear. Sadly I was not very good about actually reading the Bible so 2005 was like a shock to reality for me.

However, through all the teachings from Missler and others, I came to study on my own and found that some of the narratives spun didn't quite match what I was finding on my own. But I think it's important to learn from those more studious as we grow in understanding and not throw the baby out with the bathwater. There are still many pieces of invaluable information I gained, yet the overall narrative I find to be in error. Even so, I'm not infallible and that's how I approach the narrative I put together as I continue to study God's Word. To that end, I appreciate the other perspectives. I rarely swallow them whole, but I can't count the number of times I found a piece of scriptural connection or information that I'd never seen.

Revelation was my first book that I really dug into myself and I remember and took pictures of post-it notes laid out on my bed as I tried to organize my understanding of it. Not sure I'll ever fully get there till Yeshua walks us through it, if we really care at that point. But the wholistic narrative has certainly become more clear to me since then and I'm constantly in awe of the interconnectivity of the prophetic narrative woven through scripture here a little and there a little.

It seems to me you are on the same path as I, learn but verify, Acts 17:11.

I would agree that we know Rome is the next in line based on the historical narrative. I think it's important to recognize that the statue as a whole represent the kingdoms of this world in a series of metals that change with each kingdom. Looking forward to John's vision, we see the kingdoms of this world represented as a sequence of heads on the dragon that have fallen through time.

What I also think is important to recognize generally is that the Old Testament is focused on God's relationship with Israel. The New Testament was focused first on God's relationship with those of Israel that would hear His voice, but then that voice turned from the blinded of Israel. The good news and understanding of the spiritual nature of God's kingdom in this world went to the Gentiles, and any of Israel with ears to hear, and continues to this day. But it is very clear that yet unfulfilled prophecy is focused almost exclusively again on Israel and her redemption from blindness into the light.

Indeed it is only because of Israel that Nebuchadnezzar's dream is revealed to us through Daniel in captivity and God using Him to reveal prophetic truth to us. And so the statue representing the kingdoms of this world made of different metals through time has in common with the heads of John, the relationships of those kingdoms to the people of Israel. Indeed, Israel was judged through Babylon, returned through Medo-Persia, tried and foreshadowed through Greece and the Seleucid Empire and its little horn, and ruled over by Rome that consumed the kingdom before it and both ruled over Jerusalem at the time of Christ, and literally paved the roads that would carry the Gospel to the world.

See, a way of looking at the iron and clay that I had not considered before! Thinking through it, there is a kind of inability to cleave in the idea of how we are to be separate from the world even though we are in it and should not be partakers in their sin.

John 17:14-19
"I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth."

While the feet and not the toes are mentioned in Daniel 2:43 as being iron mixed with clay, Daniel 2:42 in the interpretation states that the toes of the feet are also part iron and clay. To me, this connects the two together as both being composed of the same mix of iron and clay. That this mixing of iron and clay is in the feet and toes of the statue, given that all the metals before it were representative of sequential nations through time, would seem to indicate a possible 5th kingdom except the fact that it is made partly of Iron, the same metal before that was not weak, and Daniel 2:40-44 speaks of the fourth kingdom as including the legs and the feet in its interpretation.

So just in reading within this prophetic vision itself, it would seem that the legs, feet, and toes are all the fourth kingdom and it is at the end of the existence of this fourth kingdom that it becomes weak, with iron and clay mixing and making it weaker. The idea of God's chosen people being the clay that slowly weakened the Roman empire at its end would also seem to fit with the idea that the stone cut without hands that strikes the statue would overcome all these previous kingdoms and grow to fill the whole earth.

However, would you consider the clay as part of the statue as well, being mixed with the iron? It seems to me that the clay mixed with the iron is part of the very statue that the stone strikes, it's nature being a weakened version of the fourth kingdom. I think there is a very important element of verse 35 that is relevant to this idea.

Daniel 2:35
"Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth."

If the clay represents the chosen of God, then we see the stone cut without hands breaking both the iron and clay together and they, along with the statue as a whole blow away like chaff and are carried away that no place is found for them. This seems to me to be pretty clear language that the statue as a whole, including the clay cease to exist in any meaningful way. This seems more representative of the clay being part of the statue, and therefore the kingdom of this world, that is forever done away with and replaced by the kingdom of God.

So to me the question would seem to be, at what point in history does this elimination of the statue and all of its metals take place? I agree the stone that struck and destroyed the image represents Yeshua. When was the kingdom of God established?

Daniel 2:44
"And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, [but] it [the kingdom set up] shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever."

What kings exist in the days that God sets up a kingdom that will never be destroyed? Since the stone cut without hands strikes the feet in their weakened state representing the end of the once strong kingdom of Rome, we should be able to find in scripture the establishing the kingdom of God, or the kingdom of heaven, toward the end of the Roman Empire that eventually consumes it. Ultimately the stone representing the establishment of the kingdom that grows to a mountain filling the whole earth. While the stone is Christ, it would also seem to be the kingdom He heads, given that the interpretation of the stone is a kingdom.

Furthermore, if the image represents the kingdoms of this world and the stone striking the image represents the kingdom of God destroying the kingdoms of this world and growing into a mountain that fills the whole earth, are there similar depictions regarding the kingdom of God or the kingdom of heaven that similarly speak to a kingdom that cannot be defeated by this world growing from something small to very large?

What are your thoughts on this?

Very nice! It is clear it is going to be a pleasure discussing the book of Daniel with you. You certainly have a deep understanding for Daniel, you have definite convictions and yet you are also willing to consider other thoughts or interpretations that, I can assure you, have not yet been found in any of today's commentaries. But please feel free to question everything and offer your thoughts - pro or con or otherwise.

I can see that you have already been more than able to consider the interpretations  i provided in the previous post and have been quickly able to bring up very important questions that must be answered - but in later chapters of Daniel. But, that might hurt this process as it would prevent the slower movement of this discussion as it moves from chapter 2 to 7. The questions you ask, and will ask must be answered, but perhaps we can table them to when the prophecies address them in the later chapters.  If they fail to connect or tie down those important questions then the interpretations will not stand..... but they do and will.

 

Below is a cut/ past from my commentary on Daniel that  disusses the "Dream Sequence" and the "interpretation sequence" verses in chapter 2 - however, this submission will only take them to verse 39. This might be a comfortable place for you to consider these interpretatons before moving on to the "detail" verses in 40-45 which will indeed address some of your questions...

The Dream Sequence

Daniel 2:31–36

³¹Thou, O king, saw, and behold a great image. This great, whose B was excellent, stood before thee; and the form thereof was terrible. ³²This image's head was of fine gold, his breast and his arms of silver, his belly and his thighs of brass, ³³His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay. ³⁴Thou saw till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces. ³⁵Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshing floors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.³⁶This is the dream; and we will tell the interpretation thereof before the king.

Verses 31 to 36 in the Book of Daniel reveal a dream depicting a colossal and terrifying statue composed of four distinct parts: a head of gold, arms and chest of silver, belly and thighs of brass, legs of iron, and feet made of iron and clay. A stone, cut without human hands, strikes the statue's feet, breaking them apart. All commentators contend the entire statue—gold, silver, bronze, iron, and clay—is crushed and swept away by the wind, leaving no trace. The stone grows into a huge mountain that fills the whole world.

Even if Nebuchadnezzar had remembered his dream, he likely would not have understood its significance, and his wise men probably couldn't have interpreted it either. Daniel tells us twice that Nebuchadnezzar "watched" as the image was revealed, from its head to the stone striking the feet. Each section of the image is presented without emphasis on one part over another. The dream doesn't provide any details or actions beyond the stone striking the feet. At this point, Daniel implies that Nebuchadnezzar didn't need to understand what it meant; he only needed to recognize the vision, as its interpretation would soon be given to him. This dream was predetermined, and it was created by someone much greater than Nebuchadnezzar, giving him a unique glimpse into the future.

This alone should have humbled him and sparked a desire to know more about this God who could see the future. The dream sequence doesn't provide explicit details about the identities of the kingdoms, kings, or powers, nor does it specify the timing or purpose of the image. However, it clearly establishes four distinct sections of the statue, each represented by a different metal and corresponding to a specific body part. This continuity suggests a seamless progression through the four divisions, implying that the future is predetermined and should be observed rather than altered. Like Daniel and Nebuchadnezzar, we too face choices in our earthly journey. We should study the finished image, recognizing it as complete and perfect in its design, without attempting to modify or reinterpret its construction.

The prophecies and interpretations in the Book of Daniel occur within these four divisions, making it essential to respect these boundaries. In Chapters 7 and 8, Daniel receives new symbols and images to reveal additional attributes and characteristics within each of the four divisions. These symbols enhance our understanding but must be applied within the framework of the dream sequence.

Verses 34-35, which describe the stone striking the image’s feet, are particularly significant. Contemporary interpretations categorically hold that the stone striking the feet causes all four sections (kingdoms) to be broken into pieces simultaneously.   

The iron, clay, bronze, silver, and gold are crushed and thrown to the wind. Most scholars agree that the "stone" represents the Messiah. However, they also concur that this event, along with verse 35, happens at His second coming.

In Luke 20:17-18, Jesus refers to Himself as the "stone the builders rejected,” indicating that He is the "cornerstone" mentioned in Psalm 118:22. Jesus tells His disciples that He will be rejected by His people and that those who fall on the stone will be broken. It would be difficult for this "stone" to be rejected if it destroyed the entire statue, unless it was an end time event – but it is not! Verse 34 represents the Messiah’s first arrival, where He would divide the fourth kingdom, not destroy the entire image. The dream sequence highlights two of the most significant events in human history: the coming of the Messiah—His first advent (verse 34) and His return (verse 35) at the end of time, when He will separate the sheep from the goats.

Interpretations of verses 34 and 35 in Nebuchadnezzar's dream vary among scholars and theologians. Most see these verses as representing a single event associated with the return of Jesus. However, there is a separation of over 2000 years between these two events. The phrase "and became like chaff from the summer threshing floors; the wind carried them away so that no trace of them was found" in verse 35 also suggests a true end-time event.

In ancient Israel, the barley harvest typically occurred in April and May, followed by the wheat harvest in May and June. During the forty-nine days leading up to Pentecost, Israel experienced a climactic battle between easterly winds from the desert, which were dry, and westerly winds from the sea, which brought moisture, clouds, and rain. By Pentecost, the weather had stabilized, signaling the beginning of the harvest. The wheat was cut with a sickle, bound into sheaves, and transported to the threshing floor. The threshing floor was a flat, clean, hard, and smooth surface, crucial for the separation of the chaff from the grain. A large shovel or wooden fork with bent prongs was used to winnow the grain, allowing the wind to blow away the chaff. This process relied on an extremely hard surface to prevent dirt from mingling with the grain during threshing. The winnowing fork was essential, as it helped release the bulk of grain, straw, and chaff into the wind, which was especially effective in the strong evening breezes common during this season.

Thus, the phrase in verse 35 refers to the end-time harvest and does not occur at the same time as the stone striking the feet in verse 34. The event in verse 34 represents the cross and defines whether the verses and their interpretations apply to the three previous kingdoms or the fourth and final kingdom of Rome (pagan or Papal). The four-sectioned image continues, but there is a significant change within the fourth kingdom. Pagan Rome, with legs of iron and feet of iron and clay, in that order, as well as the toes, will exist at the time of the Messiah and after the cross. Later, the fourth kingdom, in the form of Papal Rome, made of partly clay and partly iron, in that order, would continue for another 2000 years or so, both spiritually and physically.

In verse 33, the feet are composed partly of iron and partly of clay, in that order. These two materials, although not properly joined together, are not separate in the image. In verse 34, the stone strikes the feet and breaks them into pieces. There are two important points here: After the stone strikes the image, there are now five separate materials, and the iron and clay are no longer mixed together. The purpose of the stone striking the image's feet was to separate or divide the iron from the clay, allowing God to select the potter’s clay from the common clay (later defined as ceramic clay). The striking of the feet divides the fourth and final kingdom, not destroy or crush it or the other kingdoms out of existence. Jesus came to divide, not to destroy. The materials—their make-up and order—are different before and after the cross. The verses in the interpretation sequence speak almost exclusively to events after the cross and before His second coming.

Once the iron and clay in the feet are broken apart, God uses those separated materials as He predestined. The stone (Messiah) that strikes the feet completes His mission, fulfilling all His Father’s commands found in Daniel 9:24, and divides the fourth and final kingdom, revealing His plan of salvation for both Jew and Gentile. Verse 34 also represents God’s setting up His kingdom on earth spiritually, not physically.

The final comment of the dream sequence refers to verse 33. Daniel mentions that the feet of the metal-man image are made of partly iron and partly clay, in that order. However, there is no mention of the toes. The toes will be discussed in the interpretation sequence, but they are purposefully left out of the dream sequence description.

To Nebuchadnezzar, it may have seemed that the iron and clay had encased or largely covered any sign of individual toes, symbolizing pagan Rome's control over the internal structure and make-up of the feet and toes. Pagan Rome exercised complete control over every aspect of its conquered nations.

The dream sequence didn't provide Nebuchadnezzar with details other than identifying four kingdoms, a stone striking the image's feet, and the stone becoming a great mountain. Without Daniel’s interpretation sequence, generating any meaningful interpretations or prophetic messages would be impossible. Daniel's interpretations, found in verses 37-45, require careful placement within the dream sequence. The timing of the stone striking the feet is crucial. Determining when or where the interpretation sequence verses should be placed, either before or after the cross, depends on understanding verses 34 and 35 correctly.

The interpretation sequence

Daniel 2:37–39

³⁷Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory. ³⁸And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold.³⁹And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.

In verses 37–45, Daniel provides Nebuchadnezzar with the interpretation of the dream. Verses 37 to 39 cover the first three kingdoms, while verses 40 to 45 address the fourth and final kingdom of Rome. Unlike the dream sequence, which presents each of the four kingdoms equally, the interpretation sequence speaks of them in different ways, focusing on their unique roles within God’s plan of salvation. The dream sequence outlines the characteristics and boundaries of each kingdom, while the interpretation sequence explains how and why God would use those characteristics, features, and abilities in His plan. These interpretations are deeper and not immediately obvious.

Daniel reveals individual characteristics and facts for each kingdom. The first kingdom is especially relevant to Nebuchadnezzar, with the interpretation

highlighting several impressive gifts and blessings bestowed upon him. However, there is only one verse (39) that briefly mentions the two inner kingdoms represented by silver and bronze, covering both of their interpretations. The fourth kingdom is treated more extensively. Daniel provides prophetic information in no less than six verses (40–45), which require a deep and careful exploration to understand their meanings. These interpretations include details about the iron legs of the fourth kingdom, the iron and clay feet and toes, and the stone striking the feet, breaking them into pieces.

Although more than 2,500 years have passed since God revealed His interpretations to Daniel, there is still no consensus on many of the prophetic messages within the twelve chapters of Daniel. This makes it crucial to recognize the importance of the Chapter 2 metal-man image and all the characteristics, constraints, boundaries, restrictions, and timing embedded within these symbols. These elements serve as His "blueprints" for all twelve chapters.

Daniel’s interpretations of the first kingdom identify its king as Nebuchadnezzar. The king of the second kingdom is not mentioned in Chapter 2 but was identified by name almost 150 years earlier in the Book of Isaiah. The king of the third kingdom, Alexander, is described (though not by name) by Gabriel in Chapter 8. In the dream sequence, Daniel identifies all four metal types along with the stone that would strike the image. However, the metal type for the second kingdom is not mentioned in Daniel’s interpretation sequence.

The head of gold represented the first of the four kingdoms mentioned in Daniel's interpretation. Daniel told Nebuchadnezzar that this referred to his reign. It is no coincidence that Daniel’s interpretations of Babylon (Nebuchadnezzar) were associated with the senses found in one’s head: the mind, ears, mouth, and eyes. This aligns with Nebuchadnezzar's strengths and how he ruled his kingdom and conducted his life. Every comment within verses 37 and 38 was tailored to Nebuchadnezzar’s personal receptors—he could almost see, hear, and taste the power and glory of Daniel’s words. They seemed to validate the strength of his mental and intellectual abilities. These compliments from Daniel’s God were likely music to his ears, and he may have focused primarily on those favorable words. However, it is notable that Daniel’s interpretations do not include anything related to the heart of Nebuchadnezzar.

There is no mention of his compassion, empathy, or consideration for others. This aspect of his character would later influence his ability or inability to recognize and accept Daniel’s God as his own.

Nebuchadnezzar was told he was the king of kings and had received his kingdom, power, strength, and glory from God above. He was to rule over the children of men, the beasts, and the birds of the world, as prophesied in Jeremiah 28:14: "For thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel: I have put a yoke of iron upon the neck of all these nations, that they may serve Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon; and they shall serve him; and I have given him the beasts of the field.” This must have been pleasing to his ears, reinforcing what he already knew about his power, title, and accomplishments. However, the most crucial part of Daniel's message was that the God of heaven had given him everything. These were not merely the fruits of his own works but gifts from God. Nebuchadnezzar struggled to recognize his role in God’s plan of salvation for the Jews. It would take a special visit from Daniel’s God in Chapter 4 for him to fully realize who had granted him everything.

Despite this, Nebuchadnezzar was placed as the king of the most powerful kingdom at that time for a special purpose—not only for God to bring correction to His people but also to receive and protect them during their captivity. Babylon’s impenetrable defenses, with its multiple walls and towers, symbolized how God would keep His people safe during their seventy years in exile. Daniel, his three friends, and all the Jews in Babylon were never in jeopardy from outside forces. Through Nebuchadnezzar, God would also reveal His power, wisdom, might, and glory.

God had bestowed upon Nebuchadnezzar all the gifts necessary to fulfill his role in His plan for Daniel and His people, providing him with ample opportunities to learn about and accept Daniel’s God. God visited Nebuchadnezzar in his dreams, but he struggled to fully comprehend Him. God revealed Himself in the furnace, but Nebuchadnezzar did not fully acknowledge or reach out to Him. God spoke to him through Daniel, but Nebuchadnezzar did not fully listen or obey. At each encounter, where Nebuchadnezzar was most comfortable, God met him, but each time He was not fully accepted.

Babylon is one of two kingdoms in which Daniel identifies its king within the dream or interpretation sequences in Chapter 2.

Although the second king is revealed symbolically as a stone that strikes the metal man image at its feet, both kings are acknowledged as having their position and authority granted by God. Both are referred to as "kings of kings" within their respective kingdoms, and both receive their power, strength, and glory from the God of heaven. While both were considered human and divine, only Jesus (the stone) could truly embody this sovereignty. It would have been challenging to convince Nebuchadnezzar that he was not divine, or at least as close as anyone could be.

Despite these many similarities, their reigns would result in very different outcomes. One king would be humble, the other prideful. One would be harsh and punishing, while the other would be gentle and accept punishment on behalf of others. One would take credit for all his achievements, while the other would be obedient, worship the Creator, and give all glory to His Father. One would desire to rule the world and live forever, while the other would be willing to sacrifice His life so that others could live eternally. There are numerous parallels, yet the outcomes of their reigns would be markedly different.

Though the kings of the silver and bronze kingdoms remain unnamed in Daniel’s Chapter 2 interpretation sequence, their existence is acknowledged in other prophetic writings. In verse 39, Daniel informs Nebuchadnezzar that another kingdom will follow his, but it will be inferior. Daniel offers only these few words regarding the second kingdom. There is no elaborate praise, acknowledgment of accomplishments, or impressive characteristics attributed to this kingdom as with the first. Daniel does not mention or allude to the type of metal representing this kingdom or the identity of its king. He simply informs Nebuchadnezzar that a second, inferior kingdom will arise.

In the same verse (39), Daniel informs Nebuchadnezzar of the coming of a third kingdom that will dominate the earth. Once again, the king’s identity remains unspecified, but unlike the second kingdom, Daniel does provide the type of metal associated with this third kingdom—it will be of bronze or brass. However, Daniel’s interpretation is brief, mentioning only that this kingdom will exercise dominion over the earth. Because he discloses the type of metal, it suggests that this dominion will be achieved through military strength.

In Daniel's interpretation sequence for the second kingdom, there is no mention of Cyrus, the Persian kingdom, or the silver metal.

However, Cyrus is specifically identified in the Book of Isaiah, where it is prophesied that he would issue a decree allowing the Jews to return to Jerusalem. This prophecy was written long before the birth of either Daniel or Cyrus, during a time when the rise of the Persian Empire was not yet evident. If Daniel were written at a later date, as some suggest (in the second century BC) by an unidentified author, it would be reasonable to expect mention of Cyrus's name and the Medes-Persian kingdom in Chapter 2's interpretation sequence. It seems improbable that a later author would provide such scant attention to these kingdoms, especially considering the wealth of historical documentation available for the preceding 200 years or so.

While Cyrus may not have achieved conquests on the scale of Nebuchadnezzar or undertaken grand construction projects like those in Babylon, he was a formidable military leader who expanded his kingdom and accomplished much in non-military endeavors. Even if a writer from the second century BC omitted mention of Cyrus's well-documented achievements, they could have easily incorporated details about the military exploits and achievements of other significant Persian rulers. In Daniel's depiction of the second kingdom, Xerxes would be the final Persian ruler to ascend the throne, offering ample material for discussion regarding historical events, wars, and conflicts.

When interpreting the Book of Daniel, it's essential to understand that these verses should not be approached as a mere recounting of historical events. Rather, they are intended to convey prophetic messages from God. He has included everything necessary within the Tanakh and the Book of Daniel for His people to read, study, and interpret these prophecies. Thus, His Word, including these prophecies, is complete in all respects prior to His coming in the early first century. The Jews had everything they needed in the finished Tanakh before His arrival, and there were no asterisks added to suggest that these prophecies needed verification through historical records.

Concerning the first kingdom, God revealed all the essential resources, characteristics, and blessings required for the king and kingdom to fulfill God’s mission concerning the Jews. Nebuchadnezzar, serving as the mighty hand of God, removed the Assyrians from the earth. In relative terms, he provided Daniel and the Jews with a secure haven while they endured God’s punishment for the next seventy years.

However, when it comes to the second kingdom, God does not specify any blessings or gifts bestowed upon them. The particular mission of the second kingdom would be to bring an end to the Jews’ captivity in Babylon by permitting their return to Jerusalem. But achieving such an outcome might require more than a simple alignment of circumstances. The Jews were held in a foreign land for seventy years, likely with their identity unknown to any other nation outside the walls of Babylon. Even if the Medes-Persians were aware of them, they wouldn't have held any significance, as conquerors viewed people as mere possessions, regardless of their origin. While Cyrus commanded a considerable and formidable army, it would be unreasonable to expect Babylon, perhaps the most powerful force in the world, ensconced behind the most impregnable fortifications ever constructed, to fall without resistance. Typically, such a conquest would entail a prolonged and successful military campaign. However, Babylon's downfall would not be brought about by sheer military force, hence there was no mention of a specific type of metal (silver) in Daniel’s interpretation of the second kingdom.

The other aspect mentioned in the interpretation sequence for the second kingdom was its inferiority compared to Babylon. This is indeed an unusual characterization for a nation poised to conquer such a formidable kingdom, sheltered behind seemingly impregnable defenses. When we delve into God’s Word, the unmistakable author is none other than Daniel’s God. For the second kingdom, God's mission did not necessitate the attributes of the first kingdom, nor did it require a destructive and protracted war resulting in widespread devastation. Instead, God orchestrated events to install Cyrus into power, who would facilitate the return of His people to Jerusalem. This was accomplished through Daniel revealing Cyrus's name in Scripture, written over 150 years prior. Upon seeing his name in the Jewish Scriptures, Cyrus recognized Daniel’s God as the supreme deity and felt compelled to issue a decree allowing the Jews to return to Jerusalem. God purposefully omitted Cyrus's name from the interpretations given to Nebuchadnezzar, choosing instead to conceal it in plain sight within His Scriptures, notably in Isaiah 44 and 45.

Had Daniel disclosed Cyrus's name to Nebuchadnezzar, it's conceivable that Nebuchadnezzar would have perceived Cyrus as a threat to his reign and taken measures to thwart him.

But God had further plans for the second kingdom, orchestrating events that could only stem from His divine wisdom. The statement in the interpretation sequence indicating the second kingdom's inferiority serves a specific purpose. It foreshadows the transition of power to Darius, who would succeed Belshazzar as king of Babylon. While modern historians and post-Alexander era historicists may harbor doubts about Darius's existence, according to Daniel, Cyrus would indeed transfer rulership to Darius immediately after Babylon's conquest. Darius's rule over the inferior portion of the Medes-Persian Empire fulfills God’s prophecy. He predicted Cyrus's ascendancy to power before Daniel's birth and foretold that the kingdom conquering Babylon would be "inferior." The Medes, constituting the lesser part of the Medes-Persian kingdom, fulfill this aspect of the prophecy, reconciling what may seem like conflicting predictions.

Despite all of God's interventions, Nebuchadnezzar remained resistant to a personal relationship with Him or acknowledgment of Him as his Lord and Savior, until his period of punishment during the seven days of living as an animal. Nebuchadnezzar possessed everything he desired but lacked what he truly needed. His aspirations for eternal life and reign left him indifferent to Daniel’s God or any deity. Yet, God would not permit him to obstruct the mission He had ordained long ago for Cyrus, Darius, and the second kingdom.

We can discern God's design for the second kingdom and understand why Daniel did not specify the type of metal in the interpretation sequence. Silver, being unsuitable for military purposes, did not align with the manner in which Babylon would be conquered. Instead, God utilized the symbolic body parts associated with the second kingdom in His plan for the Jews. Whether considering the two arms of the metal-man image in Chapter 2 or the powerful arms depicted in the symbolic bear of Chapter 8, God employed these symbolic parts of a man and a bear that would receive the Jews from captivity in Babylon and facilitate their journey to Jerusalem. Thus, the plan for the second kingdom avoided physical force, relying instead on the imagery of two arms to orchestrate the return of the Jews. The names of both Darius and Cyrus were withheld from Nebuchadnezzar; one would only be revealed posthumously in the future, while the other remained concealed within the Scriptures some 150 years before his birth.

[Triton57]

On 2/4/2025 at 10:04 PM, Charlie744 said:

Very nice! It is clear it is going to be a pleasure discussing the book of Daniel with you. You certainly have a deep understanding for Daniel, you have definite convictions and yet you are also willing to consider other thoughts or interpretations that, I can assure you, have not yet been found in any of today's commentaries. But please feel free to question everything and offer your thoughts - pro or con or otherwise.

I can see that you have already been more than able to consider the interpretations  i provided in the previous post and have been quickly able to bring up very important questions that must be answered - but in later chapters of Daniel. But, that might hurt this process as it would prevent the slower movement of this discussion as it moves from chapter 2 to 7. The questions you ask, and will ask must be answered, but perhaps we can table them to when the prophecies address them in the later chapters.  If they fail to connect or tie down those important questions then the interpretations will not stand..... but they do and will.

Below is a cut/ past from my commentary on Daniel that  disusses the "Dream Sequence" and the "interpretation sequence" verses in chapter 2 - however, this submission will only take them to verse 39. This might be a comfortable place for you to consider these interpretatons before moving on to the "detail" verses in 40-45 which will indeed address some of your questions...

I debated how best to address my comments for a long post with long responses. I think in the interest of keeping the post shorter, I'll respond to the pieces in order, but separate posts just to delineate some of the points. There's a lot of thoughts on the topic.

[Triton57]

On 2/4/2025 at 10:04 PM, Charlie744 said:

We should study the finished image, recognizing it as complete and perfect in its design, without attempting to modify or reinterpret its construction.

The prophecies and interpretations in the Book of Daniel occur within these four divisions, making it essential to respect these boundaries. In Chapters 7 and 8, Daniel receives new symbols and images to reveal additional attributes and characteristics within each of the four divisions. These symbols enhance our understanding but must be applied within the framework of the dream sequence.

I would agree that the image should be examined without any attempt to modify or reinterpret its construction. It is in that line of thinking that I feel we should first fully interpret as much of the image as possible from the one vision we are given before attaching completely separate visions at different times that may very well be for very different purposes.

Do you think by bringing in Daniel 7 and 8 to these four divisions there may be some assumptive connections being made? I realize you have an interpretation formed from study and this text is based on a more holistic study of the book of Daniel, which we will get to. I just wanted to make my point from the beginning of this conversation about not making assumptions from outside each vision until the full interpretation from within the vision is addressed.

I know the count of 4 kings/kingdoms as seen in four metals (2), four beasts (7), and four horns (8) are tempting connections to make, but I also think individual examination of each vision in its own context defines where each sits on the prophetic timeline and there are more distinctions between each than the fact that each speak of four entities. Of course the visions of John compliment some of Daniel's and the historical record as a companion fill out the context, but I'm not sure your take and we'll get to that.

[Triton57]

On 2/4/2025 at 10:04 PM, Charlie744 said:

Verses 34-35, which describe the stone striking the image’s feet, are particularly significant. Contemporary interpretations categorically hold that the stone striking the feet causes all four sections (kingdoms) to be broken into pieces simultaneously.   

The iron, clay, bronze, silver, and gold are crushed and thrown to the wind. Most scholars agree that the "stone" represents the Messiah. However, they also concur that this event, along with verse 35, happens at His second coming.

A study of just the word altar in scripture was very interesting as I was studying the moedim. While in the context of the appointed times it had to do with the seven times of the year appointed by God for Israel during 3 main times of year centered around the harvest and communion with God. But it also means an appointed place, the tabernacle of the congregation, where they were to meet the Lord at His Earthly residence.

If you look at the times scripture uses the word altar, it's many times tied to man building an altar upon which to make a sacrifice at the place where the Lord met with them or when they desired to meet with the Lord. This ultimately became more stationary in Jerusalem. It's interesting that the altar to be made for the Lord was not supposed to be hewn stone, it had to be stone naturally broken apart, or not cut with human hands.

Exodus 20:25
"And if thou wilt make me an altar of stone, thou shalt not build it of hewn stone: for if thou lift up thy tool upon it, thou hast polluted it."

Yeshua is the stone cut without hands, unpolluted and the perfect sacrifice at the time God came as a man to tabernacle with men. He was the stone that brought the kingdom of God to the world and made a way for us to be members of that kingdom. I thought that was a pretty cool connection when I came across that doing word studies. And of course it goes into your next mention of the stone the builders rejected.

[Triton57]

On 2/4/2025 at 10:04 PM, Charlie744 said:

In Luke 20:17-18, Jesus refers to Himself as the "stone the builders rejected,” indicating that He is the "cornerstone" mentioned in Psalm 118:22. Jesus tells His disciples that He will be rejected by His people and that those who fall on the stone will be broken.

Matthew 21:42-46
"Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder. And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them. But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude, because they took him for a prophet."

I also think this is a relevant scripture when looking at Daniel 2. There seems to be a distinction depending upon one's interaction with the stone. In one case, they fall on the stone and rest broken on it and in the other the stone falls on them and wrests existence from them. One brings brokenness and the other pulverization, much like the stone that strikes the statute. To me, the falling on the stone is akin to the Christian dying to self and being reborn in Christ. It is a the broken and contrite heart that fall on the stone and receive His rest.

Psalm 34:15-19
"The eyes of the LORD [are] upon the righteous, and his ears [are open] unto their cry. The face of the LORD [is] against them that do evil, to cut off the remembrance of them from the earth. [The righteous] cry, and the LORD heareth, and delivereth them out of all their troubles. The LORD [is] nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit. Many [are] the afflictions of the righteous: but the LORD delivereth him out of them all."

Psalm 51:15-17
"O Lord, open thou my lips; and my mouth shall shew forth thy praise. For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give [it]: thou delightest not in burnt offering. The sacrifices of God [are] a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise."

Matthew 11:28-30
"Come unto me, all [ye] that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke [is] easy, and my burden is light."

But those who remain proud and stand in defiance, the stone will fall on them and grind them to powder. I can see the reasoning behind seeing the ultimate striking of the statue in the end times on this basis since the ultimate judgement is yet future.

However, we must not forget the context of the vision itself. We agree that the metals represent sequential kingdoms of this world. While the kings of these kingdoms changed over time, the kingdom always had a king of sorts. I think it's important to also point out that while we know from other scripture and history that the belly and thighs represent Greece, the vision is not detailed about the division of the brass kingdom in four, yet Daniel 8 is. It defines the goat as the king of Greece and the four horns that come out of it before the Roman Empire represented by the legs.

This hints to me at a less granular look at ruling political kingdoms that all happened to be wrapped up in ruling over Israel as the 6 heads did and the 7th and 8th will. It is interesting that Yeshua distinguished His kingdom many times from the kingdoms of this world.

John 18:33-37
"Then Pilate entered into the judgment hall again, and called Jesus, and said unto him, Art thou the King of the Jews? Jesus answered him, Sayest thou this thing of thyself, or did others tell it thee of me? Pilate answered, Am I a Jew? Thine own nation and the chief priests have delivered thee unto me: what hast thou done? Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence. Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice."

There is a distinction between the image and the stone that destroys it. The image represents political power in the world while the stone represents the spiritual power of the kingdom of God that exists in the world, but is not of the world. The members of the kingdom aren't centered in a particular land, they exist in every land, within every earthly kingdom. The vision represents the physical kingdoms of men on the earth being defeated by the spiritual kingdom of God. In the context of God's design in blinding Israel and the Gospel going to the Gentiles, many would consider this time the church age.

[Triton57]

On 2/4/2025 at 10:04 PM, Charlie744 said:

It would be difficult for this "stone" to be rejected if it destroyed the entire statue, unless it was an end time event – but it is not! Verse 34 represents the Messiah’s first arrival, where He would divide the fourth kingdom, not destroy the entire image. The dream sequence highlights two of the most significant events in human history: the coming of the Messiah—His first advent (verse 34) and His return (verse 35) at the end of time, when He will separate the sheep from the goats.

Interpretations of verses 34 and 35 in Nebuchadnezzar's dream vary among scholars and theologians. Most see these verses as representing a single event associated with the return of Jesus. However, there is a separation of over 2000 years between these two events. The phrase "and became like chaff from the summer threshing floors; the wind carried them away so that no trace of them was found" in verse 35 also suggests a true end-time event.

Isn't verse 34 where the image is broken into pieces though? I believe it was at Yeshua's first coming when the image would be broken into pieces, but you seem to be pointing to that being at the end. I believe it's important to first examine the tree before backing up to see the forest, but chapter and verse separations are not original to the text and feels a little too much like looking at the ant climbing on the bark of the tree. Verses 34 & 35 to me are not divided into the first and second comings, they both speak of the breaking of the iron and clay and disappearance of the whole statue because of it.

I agree with you that verse 34 represents Christ's first coming, I just disagree that 35 represents His second coming. They seem to speak of the same event at the same time when the material earthly kingdoms that had ruled Israel since Babylon were replaced by an eternal spiritual kingdom that was established at Christ's first coming and, through His body of followers, consumed them over time and has grown to fill the whole earth.

[Triton57]

On 2/4/2025 at 10:04 PM, Charlie744 said:

In ancient Israel, the barley harvest typically occurred in April and May, followed by the wheat harvest in May and June. During the forty-nine days leading up to Pentecost, Israel experienced a climactic battle between easterly winds from the desert, which were dry, and westerly winds from the sea, which brought moisture, clouds, and rain. By Pentecost, the weather had stabilized, signaling the beginning of the harvest. The wheat was cut with a sickle, bound into sheaves, and transported to the threshing floor. The threshing floor was a flat, clean, hard, and smooth surface, crucial for the separation of the chaff from the grain. A large shovel or wooden fork with bent prongs was used to winnow the grain, allowing the wind to blow away the chaff. This process relied on an extremely hard surface to prevent dirt from mingling with the grain during threshing. The winnowing fork was essential, as it helped release the bulk of grain, straw, and chaff into the wind, which was especially effective in the strong evening breezes common during this season.

Thus, the phrase in verse 35 refers to the end-time harvest and does not occur at the same time as the stone striking the feet in verse 34.

I'm in agreement on the purpose of the threshing floor and can also see the associations with the harvest at the end of the age, but I think jumping to this association as evidence of this occurring at the end of the age is going beyond the point being made here. Yes, the threshing floor is part of the harvest process, but the focus is not on the harvest, it's on the threshing floor.

Daniel 2:35
"Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth."

The image being painted is simply what every Israeli understood about the harvest time as you laid out. The statue that has been broken is like the undesired casing of the wheat that is dealt with by thrashing the grain apart from it and letting the wind blow it away so that what is valuable remains. I think you are taking it beyond its basic meaning to attach the threshing done at harvest time to the harvest at the end of the age.

I understand the logical progression that leads to your connection, and perhaps if there was a generalized harvest being spoken of and not a specific example of an action associating the statue to the chaff that is never seen again once it is blown away by the winds, then I may also accept that connection. But a harvest is only implied by the fact that you need the wheat to separate the chaff. This one part of the harvest is the extent of the analogy between the image and the chaff. If we look at the examples of the harvest in the parables and visions, the focus is much different.

Matthew 13:38-43
"The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked [one]; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear."

Note the good seed are the children of the kingdom established by the stone. The tares are not the chaff, they never make it to the threshing floor because they're not wheat, the tares are just cast into the fire. This is the harvest of Yeshua at the end of the age, when the fulness of the Gentiles has come and He gathers them before the day of the Lord and the wrath of God.

Revelation 14:14-20
"And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud [one] sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast [it] into the great winepress of the wrath of God. And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand [and] six hundred furlongs."

2 Peter 3:7
"But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men."

Here the harvest is spoken in the context of the end of the age, the separation of wheat from tares, but the harvest is even more spoken of in the context of the spreading of the Gospel, the growth of the kingdom, the stone growing into a mountain that fills the whole earth.

Matthew 9:35-38
"And Jesus went about all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every sickness and every disease among the people. But when he saw the multitudes, he was moved with compassion on them, because they fainted, and were scattered abroad, as sheep having no shepherd. Then saith he unto his disciples, The harvest truly [is] plenteous, but the labourers [are] few; Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth labourers into his harvest."

Luke 10:1-2
"After these things the Lord appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come. Therefore said he unto them, The harvest truly [is] great, but the labourers [are] few: pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he would send forth labourers into his harvest."

John 4:34-38
"Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work. Say not ye, There are yet four months, and [then] cometh harvest? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest. And he that reapeth receiveth wages, and gathereth fruit unto life eternal: that both he that soweth and he that reapeth may rejoice together. And herein is that saying true, One soweth, and another reapeth. I sent you to reap that whereon ye bestowed no labour: other men laboured, and ye are entered into their labours."

Mark 4:26-29
"And he said, So is the kingdom of God, as if a man should cast seed into the ground; And should sleep, and rise night and day, and the seed should spring and grow up, he knoweth not how. For the earth bringeth forth fruit of herself; first the blade, then the ear, after that the full corn in the ear. But when the fruit is brought forth, immediately he putteth in the sickle, because the harvest is come."

So I think to connect the comparison of the image's disappearance in the wind to that of the chaff on the threshing floor to the harvest overall takes the analogy too far. The example of the separation of the faithful from the unfaithful is tied to two different plants and only the wheat makes it to the threshing floor, while the majority of scripture about the harvest is tied to the church age from the time of Christ to the fulness of the Gentiles. This is the very time in its early growth that the stone consumes the image and it is found no more.