1 Samuel 15:3 - God orders people to kill babies

[ayin jade]

Again, a HUGE difference. All a baby knows is eat, sleep, and cry. The babies didn't even get a chance to repent of any sins they might have somehow committed, or to believe or disbelieve in God.

I guess it comes down to trust. I know the Lord is righteous and holy. I may not always understand His ways, but I have full trust in Him that His ways are best. Whatever His decisions I know they are just. Not one would be lost who is meant to be saved.

Joh 10:28-29 And I give to them eternal life, and they shall never ever perish, and not anyone shall pluck them out of My hand. My Father who gave them to me is greater than all, and no one is able to pluck them out of My Father's hand.

[ayin jade]

Now I understand your point. you are a fatalist, so it makes no difference to you anyway whether scripture is inspired or not, "what will be, will be". T his is not Biblical.

And once again you twist my words. Im not a fatalist at all. I trust in the Lord for all things. Hardly fatalistic.

I know scripture is valid, since the Holy Spirit showed that to me when I was saved. Part of His instant rewiring when I was saved.

[Matthitjah]

Grace to you,

The reference in Job was about the questioning of God and His purposes. Job sincerely desired his day in Court. He got it.

Lets hear part of Gods questioning of the limited mind of man;

Job

Edited January 28, 2006 by Dr. Luke

[ayin jade]

At this point, my question is "Is 1 Samuel inspired scripture." How is that reconciled with the rest of the Bible. This is not the same as the passage in Job. In Job's case, God ALLOWED free moral agents such as satan and certain men to do wrong to Job, but in the case of 1 Samuel, supposedly, God directly orders the slaughter of sucklings for no crime of their own. Oh yes, they were born in original sin the same as you and I, but we are here and alive. My orginal sin was no less or worse than theirs. My actual sins in my life may have even been worse than some of those people who were killed, yet again, I am alive, and even believe in God and love him.

(snipped)

3) there is no flaw, we are all just too stupid to understand how passages that seem mutually contradictory can be reconciled, and that being the case, we end up with a Bible that is sort of a Penrose diagram. "given a small enough portion, it portrays a correct and accurate shape without contradiction, but when seen in its entirity, there are flaws, contradictions, and logical impossibilities that our feeble minds can never understand."

That being the case, there seems to be little point in making a Bible that can't be understood.

Not stupid, and it isnt pointless to have the bible this way. Maybe you just lack understanding in some areas. No one fully understands every part I think. We are all still growing and learning. Thing is, when you see something that seems to contradict, you make the assumption that the bible or God is flawed. Instead, it is always us and our understanding that is flawed.

[ayin jade]

And once again you twist my words. Im not a fatalist at all. I trust in the Lord for all things. Hardly fatalistic.

Sure you are. You said that everyone who was meant to be saved will be saved, and if not, then not. That is belief in fate, i.e. fatalism, or predestination as its "christianized" term is used.

Well after posting for so many hours, Im a bit tired, so perhaps didnt clarify what I meant as well as I should have. I trust in the Lord in all things, including the eternal fate of all mankind. He alone knows the heart and can judge us. That isnt fatalist. It is trust in the Lord.

If I was really fatalist, would I ever bother trying to spread the gospel? Would I bother in chat with those who need help or want to know how to be saved? It can be quite taxing to help people. Why would I bother if I was fatalist?

[ayin jade]

What assurance do you have that the manuscript you read is correct?

I have the Lords assurance.

WSB, are you having doubts these days? Is something troubling you beyond this one passage?

[Matthitjah]

Grace to you,

So then the Gospel is too weak to save the lives and souls of children? They must be butchered instead?

Nobody said that.

You are confusing Physical Judgment with eternal damnation my brother.

Isa

Edited January 28, 2006 by Dr. Luke

[Gerioke]

Those verses about Gods Judgment for unrepented sin in the Land are as much for the sinner as they are for the Saint. They were to show Gods children as well as those outisde of His Kingdom what happens when sin goes unchecked. It is ultimately Judged. Yes even after 400 years.

What good did it do 400 years later when the generation that commited the crime, and needed correcting most was long dead? What good did it do, as far as teh Amalekites are concerned, for them to be killed? NONE OF THEM LIVED TO REPENT OR LEARN ANYTHING FROM IT! What good did it do Israel? Not much. Given that in Ezekiel 16 and 17 we are eventually told that Israel became WORSE than any of her neighbors had ever been, so historically it did NOTHING to preserve Israel's "virginity", nothing...It was a senseless slaughter of defenseless children who were never even given a chance. Remember, we call people like Hitler a tyrant and a "war criminal" for a reason...

So God isn't flawed, but something sure is....

I hope you're not letting your "voodoo" neighbors get to you. I can't believe I'm reading these things from you. Up until now you have been the crusty voice of reason in many a discussion. I have not always agreed with your delivery but you always seemed to have the answers.

You're scaring me.

[ayin jade]

I have the Lords assurance.

From where? The only standard you have to judge truth by, to judge the "spirit" that is speaking to you, is the written Bible. If tangible "A" can only be confirmed by intangible "B", and intangible "B" can only be confirmed by tangible "A", then you have actually proven nothing. Two errors can be in agreement, just as two true statements can be in agreement.

The bible tells us that the Holy Spirit testifies to us, about the claims of Jesus. When I was saved, it was like an instant rewiring. The Holy Spirit showed me many things. Mostly "you are wrong about this." One thing He showed me was that the bible is true. It wasnt brainwashing. I was alone when I was saved, except for His presence. I hadnt expected the kind of reaction to salvation that I got. I hadnt expected to be shown how wrong I was in many things. The Lord had mercy on me and gave me a quick lesson. I have another standard to tell me His word is truth. I had it confirmed by the Lord.

So then we say that to "try a spirit" we go to the Bible, but your only answer when I ask for how you know the Bible is right is "God gives me assurance." How do you know its "God" giving you assurance? Maybe its the devil "assuring" you falsely, so that you "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain", i.e. a blatant error or contradiction in a supposedly inspired text.

Well I cant prove it to you, but it was certainly not the devil who told me that.

But when you see some of the sick mess I've seen in "alleged" churches, that read the same Bible and sang the same songs as you and I, and claim to worship the same God, and then you realize you honestly cant quite tell the difference until they chase you right out of the church for no apparant reason. You can't every REALLY tell the difference until its too late, but worse, other than my own parents and maybe one or two other people, I've never even met a christian, or at least not a "preacher" who wasn't out to rob me or hurt me in some way........

When you see how "preachers" can abuse people, and use the Bible to do it, and not just an isolated case, but its EVERYWHERE. I lost count of the number of churches my family visited, and its the same old BS everywhere. A handful of self proclaimed preachers and their frozen chosen, usually their own family, takes everyone elses lives from them, and uses the Bible, and the name of Jesus, to do it....

I forsook my worldly friends for the church, and in the end the "christians" were mroe evil than the world, and i knew this to begin with, but I had to give it a try anyway, right? Had to give them the benefit of the doubt...

I've left the church, not just "a" church, but every so-called-church, because I dont trust anyone any more, and can't afford to keep investing my life in the wrong people, places and things, "christian" or otherwise.

The Lord is perfect, but humanity is flawed and sinful. Even Christians. And yes, Christians can hurt someone too. Ive been hurt by churches, so has my family. That isnt His fault though. It is the sin of man that causes it. I keep my eye on Him and move on past the hurts. (That is not meant as a put down in any way, so please do not take it like that.)

You may be the most sincere person alive, but I have no way of knowing that, short of taking your word for it,or the word of someone else, and I can't afford risking whatever's left of my faith and my life by trusting you.

Fair enough. I can live with that. You dont have to trust me. Trust in the Lord though. He will reward your faith in Him. Not in man. Not in the church down the road. Faith in Him.

I sincerely hope you can look past all the hurts you have. All the pain you feel. Look to the Lord. Seek Him alone in all of this. You have doubts. Talk to the Lord. Please seek Him.

[ayin jade]

The church "institution" may be, however many will depend on where you live, but the Lord isnt like that.

Seek the Lord. Place Him first in your life. At this point, you need Him more than ever.