Copper Scroll Posted February 10, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 14 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 682 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 15 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/25/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted February 10, 2006 Lately, I've been taking a closer look at some of the tenets of our faith. I'd like to examine the notion that we as sinners are deserving of eternal torture. What scriptures contain this idea? What is your interpretation of that scripture? Why do we deserve to be tortured for eternity? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Copper Scroll Posted February 10, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 14 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 682 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 15 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/25/2006 Status: Offline Author Share Posted February 10, 2006 (edited) Thank you for your answer. You have lived up to your username. There's one point I still have a question on. I understand why hell must be eternal, but why does an individual have to stay there and be tormented forever. Can a person just die there and just be nonexistent? I suppose nonexistence too is out of God's presence. Actually other questions have come to mind, and have been edited into this post: Many people take the universalist position that "a loving God could never send anyone to eternal hell". But this is not Biblical at all. The scripture-twisting needed to support this view is amazing, but people want desparately to deny what the Bible clearly says. The fact is that God is not only loving, he is also holy. I've never taken this position myself, but what makes it wrong? What invalidates it? So people in hell are there for only one reason: lack of saving faith. And since faith is defined by the Bible as the opposite of sight, then after this life faith is forever impossible, since everyone will know that God is real. Here, an important distinction is drawn between knowledge (by "sight"?) and faith. This relates to the issue I raise on another thread (What is faith?). What is it about faith that is saving? What quality does faith have and knowledge not have? Also, God is holy but was still able to reveal himself to sinners (prophets). Since they know God (by "sight") are they not saved? Edited February 10, 2006 by Copper Scroll Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prodigalson123 Posted February 10, 2006 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 22 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 232 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 24 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/16/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/22/1965 Share Posted February 10, 2006 God's attributes don't allow Him to not punish the guilty. Think about the justice to the believer who spends his/her life in service to the Lord, and then another who mocked God by living their lives in direct opposition to the commandments and the mercy offered to those who accept Jesus as Lord is allowed to partake in the same reward. The parable of the laborers i the vineyard is a good example. Matt 20:1-16 The Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard 1"For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire men to work in his vineyard. 2He agreed to pay them a denarius for the day and sent them into his vineyard. 3"About the third hour he went out and saw others standing in the marketplace doing nothing. 4He told them, 'You also go and work in my vineyard, and I will pay you whatever is right.' 5So they went. "He went out again about the sixth hour and the ninth hour and did the same thing. 6About the eleventh hour he went out and found still others standing around. He asked them, 'Why have you been standing here all day long doing nothing?' 7" 'Because no one has hired us,' they answered. "He said to them, 'You also go and work in my vineyard.' 8"When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, 'Call the workers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last ones hired and going on to the first.' 9"The workers who were hired about the eleventh hour came and each received a denarius. 10So when those came who were hired first, they expected to receive more. But each one of them also received a denarius. 11When they received it, they began to grumble against the landowner. 12'These men who were hired last worked only one hour,' they said, 'and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.' 13"But he answered one of them, 'Friend, I am not being unfair to you. Didn't you agree to work for a denarius? 14Take your pay and go. I want to give the man who was hired last the same as I gave you. 15Don't I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?' 16"So the last will be first, and the first will be last." now if the amount of reward is the same to those who accept Chrsit early in life as those who accept Him much later, what kind of justice would God be showing if He allowed those into His paradise that rejected Him? That would also make Jesus words in John 14:6 6Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. invalid, and thus the rest of scripture invalid because if God chose not to stay true to this promise, then what other promises will He arbitrarily decide to honor or not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest coleenschoen Posted February 10, 2006 Share Posted February 10, 2006 there is no such bible teaching of eternal torture in hell,hell is the common grave of mankind ,the punishment for deliberate disobedience is permanent death .in job 14;13 he asks to go to sheol the hebrew equivalent of hades[greek]he certainly would not ask for more abuse from satan ,he just wanted to die to escape the pain satan was inflicting upon him acts 2;27 points out that god would not leave jesus in hades.jesus never sinned how could he possibly go to a proverbial hell.there are many scriptures like these that help us to understand that our creator is a loving creator and is not abusive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pancho Posted February 10, 2006 Group: Members Followers: 1 Topic Count: 86 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 98 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/11/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/05/1975 Share Posted February 10, 2006 Howdy all - 2thepoint & copper scroll I think we can all agree that the wages of sin is death. And the 'Gift' of God is eternal life. So... if the 'Gift' from God is eternal life (for those who believe in Jesus)... why do we Christians assume that those destined for hell (do not believe in Jesus) also receive this gift??? The bible clearly teaches that the soul who sins is the soul that will die. I believe hell is death eternal... why else is the lake of fire the second death? The punishment is the denial of life... everybody wants to live. Even sick people fight for life... and God has put eternity into the hearts of man. I think the weeping and gnashing of teeth is when the unrepentant see that they've missed the best in this life (walking with Jesus) and will forever be denied the opportunity to do so in the next... Heaven! And where exactly is outside of God's presence anyway? If I go down to the grave he is there or if I go up to the heavens he is there... or are we all going to be dancing and singing in Gods Kingdom while somewhere billions of people and demons suffer horribly in agonising pain! Will God just turn a blind eye/ear to their suffering.. to their screams? I do not believe that is the God of the bible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
book_wirm Posted February 10, 2006 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 219 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 16 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/28/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted February 10, 2006 there is no such bible teaching of eternal torture in hell... Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment... Mark 9:43-44 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. Luke 16:28 ...send him (Lazarus) to my father's house: For I (the rich man) have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Revelation 20:10, 15 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. And whomsoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. I won't continue at this point... ...hell is the common grave of mankind... Sometimes. And yet other times it is depicted as being a place with unquenchable fire. Let the context dictate the usage. ...our creator is a loving creator and is not abusive. True, but we do not define what is "Just" and what is abusive. We learn from God that our ways are not His ways. The scriptures teach of a place of torment. We would be wise to accept God's word over our understanding. In Christ, Eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
book_wirm Posted February 10, 2006 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 219 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 16 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/28/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted February 10, 2006 (edited) I believe hell is death eternal... why else is the lake of fire the second death? Did the first death eliminate consciousness? No. Then why do we assume the second death will? We can't, unless we read into it what we wish to see there. In Christ, Eric Edited February 10, 2006 by book_wirm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Copper Scroll Posted February 10, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 14 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 682 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 15 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/25/2006 Status: Offline Author Share Posted February 10, 2006 God's attributes don't allow Him to not punish the guilty. Think about the justice to the believer who spends his/her life in service to the Lord, and then another who mocked God by living their lives in direct opposition to the commandments and the mercy offered to those who accept Jesus as Lord is allowed to partake in the same reward. The question becomes What necessitates eternal punishment for sins committed during a finite lifetime? What makes eternal torment not excessive? What makes it necessary? What makes it just? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Copper Scroll Posted February 10, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 14 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 682 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 15 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/25/2006 Status: Offline Author Share Posted February 10, 2006 I understand why hell must be eternal, but why does an individual have to stay there and be tormented forever. Can a person just die there and just be nonexistent? I suppose nonexistence too is out of God's presence.My opinion is that annihilation (non-existence) denies justice. In other words, what justice is there in making an unrepentant sinner disappear? Another poster argues that we all want to live--we all avoid death. We consider wanting to die a madness. And if punishment is not eternal, how can we be sure heavenly bliss is eternal? We can't have eternal life for one group but not the other, or there would have been no point at all to the trials of life on earth. If we get eternal rewards for good deeds, then there must be eternal 'rewards' for bad deeds. They are two sides of the same coin. What binds these two together? Why and how does what happens with one affect the other? What is it about faith that is saving? What quality does faith have and knowledge not have? Also, God is holy but was still able to reveal himself to sinners (prophets). Since they know God (by "sight") are they not saved? Hebrews 11:1 2 Corinthians 5:7 Romans 8:24-25 Colossians 1:15-20 1 John 2:22 1 John 5:12-13 John 3:18 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 Romans 4:3 (Genesis 15:5-6 Hope that helps Very thorough. Thank you. But I'm not sure if answers the first question I had: What does faith have over knowledge? What is it about faith that is salvific? What makes knowledge not salvific? Perhaps, the Bible doesn't answer this. I don't know. The more central question is Why wouldn't God just reveal himself to all (as he did for the prophets) so there wouldn't be all of this confusion that only works to help people suffer eternally? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Copper Scroll Posted February 10, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 14 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 682 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 15 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/25/2006 Status: Offline Author Share Posted February 10, 2006 there is no such bible teaching of eternal torture in hell,hell is the common grave of mankind ,the punishment for deliberate disobedience is permanent deathYou appear not to have read any of the above posts. For additional information, please go to This Link for a page full of links to articles proving universalism wrong and unbiblical. Let me know if I'm misrepresenting you, coleen, but I don't think this argument is for universalism. I think it is stating that hell is not tortuous (at least, not in the sense that we normally think of torture). I think its saying that the attributes of hell is death and darkness--nonexistence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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