eric Posted February 24, 2006 Group: Graduated to Heaven Followers: 2 Topic Count: 50 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,073 Content Per Day: 0.52 Reputation: 43 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/02/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/10/1923 Share Posted February 24, 2006 Copper scroll, God is not willing to punish anyone. Quite the opposite. The Lord is not slack concerning His promises, as some men count slackness.but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 2pet.3:9. The question is: If God created humans perfect but knew that humans were bound to sin, why does sin make God so angry and wrathful that he would want to punish sinners for eternity. I answered the other half of your question earlier. eric. (with a small e) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaniJ87 Posted February 25, 2006 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 15 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 265 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/15/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/30/1987 Share Posted February 25, 2006 I originally (perhaps, repeatedly) posed this question on the Doctrine forum but never got an answer. The closest thing to an answer I got was that old, compelling brick wall "God's ways are higher and/or mysterious." (This is undeniable, but, I hope, there is a more reasonable answer. Perhaps, there is not.) The question is: If God created humans perfect but knew that humans were bound to sin, why does sin make God so angry and wrathful that he would want to punish sinners for eternity? Well... that is a wonderful question... I think maybe part of the answer is, that we don't have words to explain God... and sometimes things we write- even inspired- cannot be properly understood by us. another thing that may or may not make sense.... God created us with a choice to sin, or not to sin. At that point, Adam and Eve could have ignored Satan, and done God's will. While God DOES know everything, and KNEW what they would choose, them choosing what is wrong does not make it less wrong, just because God knew it would happen. If you tell your child not to eat the cookie, and you know they will eat the cookie... when they eat it, it is STILL wrong... and they STILL need consequences. Since Adam and Eve, we have lived in sin, because they were our representatives.. and our ancestors... and so, we are part of their sin-ridden family. God is perfect, so He cannot allow sin into His Kingdom... so rather than God "punishing us" with hell... he rescues us from it with Salvation. I think that a more mind-boggling question for you to ask would be..... "Why did God create us in the first place, if He knew that we would sin, and that He would have to send the Son to die on the cross to redeem us?" or "Why did God create anything at all? Why do the angels/demons exist? Why didn't He just smash the devil and the bad angels on the spot?" He didn't say, " I knew this would happen" as so many believe. He merely mentioned that He wished it hadn't happened. People will say, "but God is omniscient He must have known." That doesn't mean to say that He must excercise His omnicience all the time. A strong man doesn't have to flex his muscles every day to prove he is strong. Nobody but God himself knows whether or not the angels or man would rebel and nobody can come up with scripture to prove it one way or the other. For my own peace of mind I prefer to belive God did not know for sure. I guess this is a good point. Maybe God can't always tell the future. But many scriptures to indicate that God's knowledge is perfect. A strong man doesn't have to flex all of the time, but he can't make himself not strong. If he has to lift something, he's going to use his strength. If you know something, you can't make yourself not know it. Even if you could, you would have to know it first before you can make yourself somehow ignore or forget it. Your own peace of mind does not change reality. God is all-knowing... and He cannot make any decision without knowing EVERYTHING that will come of it... also, eternity is as one day, and one day is as eternity for God... so everything is DONE. He has already made every choice that He is going to make... He already knows everything that will EVER happen.... and EVERYONE that will ever be born.... God knows all things actual and possible. He has perfect knowledge (Job 37:16) and knows everything (1 John 3:20). Open theism is an attempt to limit this knowldege by stating that God did not in fact know everything before it happened. This position is rife with weaknesses, and has been discussed here on the forums in the past. God is also eternal meaning that all events (past, present and future) are equally vivid to him at any moment in time. To arrive at a position based on how it makes us feel, is not the best way to do theology. It can lead to a theology that is man-centered rather than God-centered exactly. might I add that in the Bible it does say that God is the Alef and the Tav, the beginning and the end... (the symbolism here is awesome... Alef = ox... a beast of burden... Christ bore our burdens... and Tav means mark, brand, seal... God seals all things... He is in charge of them, controlling them.... ) He cannot be the End... if He does not already know what is there. He cannot be the Beginning if He was not there. He WAS there... and IS HERE.... and WILL BE in the END.... He doesn't change... so how could He "not" know something now, and know it later? Would not that be a change? Eternal and All-Knowing... He is amazing, isn't He? ~Danette Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Copper Scroll Posted February 26, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 14 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 682 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 15 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/25/2006 Status: Offline Author Share Posted February 26, 2006 (edited) I originally (perhaps, repeatedly) posed this question on the Doctrine forum but never got an answer. The closest thing to an answer I got was that old, compelling brick wall "God's ways are higher and/or mysterious." (This is undeniable, but, I hope, there is a more reasonable answer. Perhaps, there is not.) The question is: If God created humans perfect but knew that humans were bound to sin, why does sin make God so angry and wrathful that he would want to punish sinners for eternity? Marcion, one of the early leaders of gnosticism, refused to acknowledge the God of the Old Testament, saying that he had too many human characteristics to be a God, such as jealousy, hate, and revenge. I agree with him. I have read on gnosticism and would tend to agree on many points--just because it makes more sense to me. But what do I know? The typical Christian theologian (who holds gnosticism to be a heresy) will always raise the point that I am a finite and ignorant human being--and I shouldn't trust myself to base all of my beliefs on how I feel or what I think makes sense. As I grow older, though, I am finding it more difficult to believe something that doesn't make sense. That God exists makes sense. That Jesus was God in the flesh makes sense too--no fault could be found in him. Much of what follows in mainstream Christian theology makes less sense (that the same God Jesus is would be angry enough with sinners to kill their babies or make them suffer for eternity). I'm trying to figure out if there is any more reason to it than "God's ways are higher and are beyond human comprehension." Edited February 26, 2006 by Copper Scroll Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Copper Scroll Posted February 26, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 14 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 682 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 15 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/25/2006 Status: Offline Author Share Posted February 26, 2006 (edited) God created us with a choice to sin, or not to sin. At that point, Adam and Eve could have ignored Satan, and done God's will. While God DOES know everything, and KNEW what they would choose, them choosing what is wrong does not make it less wrong, just because God knew it would happen. If you tell your child not to eat the cookie, and you know they will eat the cookie... when they eat it, it is STILL wrong... and they STILL need consequences. Let me describe a scenario closer to the reality (as I see it) : The parent doesn't tell Child C directly not to eat the cookie (as God doesn't normally interact with people directly and explicitly). The parent instead asks Child A to write down that Child C shouldn't eat the cookie on a piece of paper. This is written and the writing is handed to Child B who uses the writing as evidence for Child C for why he shouldn't eat the cookie. Meanwhile, other children are running around eating cookies (which are enticing) and some of them have written phony parental commands down on paper to justify it. How is Child C supposed to know that Child B's writing and teaching is correct and others are wrong? Would it be reasonable for the parent to be angry with Child C if he decides to eat the cookie after all, given all the distractions from the other kids? Edited February 26, 2006 by Copper Scroll Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Copper Scroll Posted February 28, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 14 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 682 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 15 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/25/2006 Status: Offline Author Share Posted February 28, 2006 (edited) That is an interesting riddle you put forward Copper Scroll. Let me first try to break this down. I am assuming here are the players: THE PARENT- God Child A- The writers of the Bible Child B- The Preachers teaching what the Bible says Child C- The public at large. Assuming that is true, let's go through it. Correct. Thanks for your response. I've been waiting a while for one. 1 God gives his Word to Holy men who write it down and it becomes our Bible. 2 Men are called of God to preach and teach what it says. 3 We have to decide what to do with what we hear. Basically it is a simple matter of faith. It is the same thing we go through every time we witness to an unbeliever. I believe God's Word by faith. John 20:29 "...blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed." That would be the Christian Church of today. It's not just Christianity though. It's also Islam and Hinduism and Judaism and Zorastrianism and the various animisms and polytheisms of the world and even many secular philosophies. I agree that faith is a fundamental thing we all need in order to make some sense of our world and our lives. But when it comes to religion, most religions say that you can't believe in their tenets or practice their forms of worship if you also do it for other religions. (I guess Hinduism is one exception of this.) The issue is how to determine which is right. They all appear to have some merits. Is it a guessing game? If you guess wrong, you could be tortured for eternity--for bad luck. Then we have doubters, similiar to yourself. You question the validity of the written Word given to Child A. You scoff at the preaching of child B. You embrace the heathen around you and partake of the forbidden cookie. It's not really like that. I just ask questions and don't back down if the answer doesn't make sense or satisfy the question. I do scoff at answers that don't make sense. As I indicated before, though, the cognitively dissonant can't believe. What you seem to be asking me to do is to make an uneducated guess in favor of Christianity and to accept premises that don't make full sense to me. Let me give you another real life example. I heard someone say in California they passed a new cell phone law. To me that is hearsay. I can believe it or not. I can see others driving and talking on the cell phone and say to myself, I will do likewise, I receive not the witness of the person who said it was illegal. If the law is real, and I get caught breaking it, how do you think the judge will look at me? Will he let me off because I didn't believe the witness? Anyone that knows anything about California knows the answer is absolutely not. The difference here is that a person can easily investigate the issue and find an answer. Whether the cell phone is illegal or not is a phone call away. Then it is no longer a matter of faith; it is a matter of knowing. So in conclusion, child C better believe the witness of the preacher, Child B, when they show them the written Word of God penned by Child A. If they don't, they will have to pay the consequences, eternal damnation. Is it fair? I recently got a ticket for having a plate light out in California and didn't even know it had burned out. Was that fair? To me it wasn't but I still got stuck with the ticket. Things aren't always fair. No, that's fair. Paying a ticket does not compare to eternal damnation. Paying a ticket is not tortuous and doesn't last forever. After you pay the ticket, you are given a chance to obey the law next time the situation arises. This doesn't happen for someone burning in a lake of fire for eternity. Edited February 28, 2006 by Copper Scroll Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest br.biff Posted February 28, 2006 Share Posted February 28, 2006 I believe we are created with free will. I also believe that means God has called us to be responsible. He in a sense trusts us to make the right decision. Since we are left to make our own choice He might not know what it will be . I believe He knows the outcome of any of the gazillion choices we could make but we are responsible for the choice. As far as suffering or eternal hell, God has said it is so. We as mortal humans have no cause to questoin Him. Live according to His word and you don't have to worry about it. We cannot call our creator into question. To do so revisits the origanal sin. Why does this happen ? why does that happen? why?why?why? SIN. Adam did it so why not question Adam? He(Adam) was told the consequence of his action but chose to disobey.That brought all this calamity to the earth. When asked why the man was born blind or whose fault it was Jesus replied that it wasn't anyones fault but so the glory of God would be revealed. Tradgedy sucks that is true but ALL things work together for good... If my 7yr. old son had not died in 1998 I would not be a minister of the Word Of God today. Trials build strength and dependence on God. Hell however is real and is where unbelievers go with the rebellious angels because God says so. This world is where you decide where you want to spend eternity. It's not that life is short , it's that your'e dead for such a long time. Choose wisely Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DInsights Posted February 28, 2006 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 38 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 4 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/12/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted February 28, 2006 The question is: If God created humans perfect but knew that humans were bound to sin, why does sin make God so angry and wrathful that he would want to punish sinners for eternity? Copper Scroll: Grace and peace to you and all. You asked a very worthy and loaded question: Why Does Sin Make God Angry? Let us, first, understand what "sin" means: A sin is any work of unrighteousness originating from the heart of man for the purpose of establishing words of lies (will or purpose of the devil), using the power of the devil unto vain glory and death. Sins, therefore, are works against the life (knowledge by relationship) of God, against our love (obedience to commandment) of God and neighbor, and against justification (judgment declaring the righteousness) of God. The wages of sin [is] death. God is the Spirit and man was created in His image and likeness, which is spirit. Sin taints, corrupts, reduces and changes a man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Copper Scroll Posted March 1, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 14 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 682 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 15 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/25/2006 Status: Offline Author Share Posted March 1, 2006 (edited) I noticed it had been a while since you wrote that post. I wouldn't have even noticed this thread had you not pointed it out. I did wonder, did you come up with this analogy on your own, or did you get it from someone else? I wrote it in response to post 13. The argument there was a parent still can be angry with a child she "knows" would disobey her (by eating a cookie). I rewrote the analogy to better fit reality. What you are saying is we must decide which religion is right, and hope it is the correct one. If not, then we are in trouble. Here is the bottom line. I have made that choice. I am betting everything on the God of the Bible, because I have no doubt he alone is the true and living God. I believe Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God. I notice that word "bet". So you agree it is a matter of "luck"? We have to guess where to place our bets? First, what if the gnostics are the heretics most of Christianity, including myself, consider them to be? What if you guess wrong, and wind up burning in hell for a wrong guess? Another possibility to consider. What if Christians are wrong, and Jesus who you say makes sense to you is not the Messiah, and Judaism is correct? That would mean the mean God of the Old Testament is God, and you will wind up in hell forever for choosing a false religion? You must really be a troubled soul with all that weighing on your mind? I am surprisingly not all that troubled by it. Facing eternal torture, I would think that I would be too nervous to even type this. Yes I am asking you to take a step of faith, just as Paul did with King Agrippa. I also noticed something you said in the last sentence of that response. You said I am asking your to "make an uneducated guess in favor of Christianity." I thought you considered yourself to be a Christian. From that statement, it appears you are in the "undecided" camp rather than the Christian camp. Not "undecided"--in development. I have chosen to follow Jesus--I did many years ago. I seek more information on and reason in the choice I've made. What you appear to be saying is "Give up on that. Accept weak answers for some questions and no answers for others." I'm not sure if I can do this. By the way, I know most people probably know what cognitive and disonance mean, but they are not words I hear in every day conversation. Sorry. Cognitive dissonance is basically the psychological result of bad logic and conscious self-contradiction. Holding onto contradictory ideas/beliefs creates dissonance in a person's thought processes. To me, it is impossible to have faith (that is, profound spiritual faith) through cognitive dissonance. No, actually you are wrong. I still have to have faith to believe the answer I find in an on-line search, or by calling the highway patrol office. There have been times I have been searching to find out something like, if there is a low clearance bridge on a certain highway. I called the highway patrol office, and couldn't get a definitive answer. I have even called places and gotten a wrong answer. Also, it may be a case where I just heard about this new law, got back in my truck, and hadn't had time to do research. In the mean time, I may want to make a call, without having to pull over first. It is not a cut and dry matter of knowing. It comes down to whether or not I believe what I was told or not. I agree that faith is the foundation of all knowledge. However, I'm sure that you agree that there are definite authorities on the Californian law who will not contradict one another on what the law explicitly says. This is the case with religion. Religious and philosophical authorities throughout the world are all in disagreement. All the kids are running around with different pieces of paper they all claim came from the same parent. I will have to respectfully disagree with the fairness of such a ticket. I was not discussing the extent of the penalty. The extent of the penalty has everything to do with the fairness of it. No, this does not compare to eternal damnation, but again that was not my point. But that's my point. And you don't address it. Edited March 1, 2006 by Copper Scroll Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Copper Scroll Posted March 1, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 14 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 682 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 15 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/25/2006 Status: Offline Author Share Posted March 1, 2006 I believe we are created with free will. Is there support for this belief in the Bible? I also believe that means God has called us to be responsible. He in a sense trusts us to make the right decision. Since we are left to make our own choice He might not know what it will be . This view is persuasive, if unpopular. Most Christians believe that God knows everything about the future. Trials build strength and dependence on God. I agree that trials (in this life) build strength. I guess you are a testament to that. (I am sorry about your son.) My question is how does the ultimate trial of eternal torture build strength? Hell however is real and is where unbelievers go with the rebellious angels because God says so. I'd like your response to this too: The parent doesn't tell Child C directly not to eat the cookie (as God doesn't normally interact with people directly and explicitly). The parent instead asks Child A to write down that Child C shouldn't eat the cookie on a piece of paper. This is written and the writing is handed to Child B who uses the writing as evidence for Child C for why he shouldn't eat the cookie. Meanwhile, other children are running around eating cookies (which are enticing) and some of them have written phony parental commands down on paper to justify it. How is Child C supposed to know that Child B's writing and teaching is correct and others are wrong? Would it be reasonable for the parent to be angry with Child C if he decides to eat the cookie after all, given all the distractions from the other kids? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Copper Scroll Posted March 1, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 14 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 682 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 15 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/25/2006 Status: Offline Author Share Posted March 1, 2006 God is not a mean hearted Spirit who enjoys to see His creation, whose spirit is hardened by sin unto flesh, die in vain and punished for eternity. Did God know that this creation would sin when God created it? If so, and God doesn't want to see it die, why would God create it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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