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Sin and God's wrath


Copper Scroll

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COPPER SCROLL,

I notice that word "bet". So you agree it is a matter of "luck"? We have to guess where to place our bets?

BUTERO,

Since the word bet would imply there is a chance I could be wrong, you are correct in that I used the wrong word. I have complete faith in the Word of God, so it just goes to show, that I need to choose my words more carefully.

Is choosing a religion not a guessing game? How?

I am glad you decided to follow Jesus. Could you elaborate on what following Jesus means to you? Does it mean obeying his commands?

Yes.

I pray that God will send you the evidence you need to believe, but since he said no sign would be given but that of Jonah, and that has already occured, I don't hold out much hope of that happening.

I don't want/need evidence. I need reason. I need sensibility.

Authorities are not always right. Let me give you a different example. Take the tax code. H & R Block is supposed to be experts in preparing taxes.

A similar thing happened to us a couple of years ago. We'll never go back to h&r block. That firm is not the tax authority though. The tax authority is the irs. There is no one religious authority. All of them are in disagreement. Picking which one to follow appears to be somewhat of a guessing game, unless you can demonstrate otherwise.

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Guest br.biff

Copper Scroll,

About free will, God ceated man in His image , He let man name all the animals without input, gave a set of rules to follow, allowed him to choose any thing in the garden to eat exept the forbiden tree.These choice options imply free will. If not there would be no need to forbid anything because we simply could not choose.

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Copper Scroll,

About free will, God ceated man in His image , He let man name all the animals without input, gave a set of rules to follow, allowed him to choose any thing in the garden to eat exept the forbiden tree.These choice options imply free will. If not there would be no need to forbid anything because we simply could not choose.

Thanks. :thumbsup:

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COPPER SCROLL,

Is choosing a religion not a guessing game? How?

BUTERO,

I didn't get a list of the worlds religions, lay them out, look at the evidence and say, I am betting on Chrisitianity, that it is the right one. So in that way, the answer is no. I just believe it is the truth. The way I would have chosen my words more carefully would be to have said I believe in Christianity by faith, not that I am betting on it being correct. The reason I would have to choose those words instead, is to bet means I could be wrong, and though in one place you said we could be wrong about anything, I do not believe that to be so. For instance, I am looking at a computer monitor made by Dell. I know it is a computer monitor, and it is a Dell. There is no doubt it is a fact, I could not be wrong.

We've been touching on the issue of epistemology a lot lately and, here, you appear to switch your position on it. (Previously you said that any "authorities" you call up about the law could be wrong.) I think we both agree that faith is the foundation of all knowledge--so I propose we leave epistemology alone.

You don't really answer the question I asked. Given the scenario about the parent, the children, and the cookie, how is choosing one's religion not a guessing game? or is it a guessing game? As far as I can tell, Child C still has to guess who is right.

Do you believe you will ever get all the answers you seek, to a point where you will be able to believe the entire Bible is the Word of God?

I don't know. That's not really my goal.

I am not asking you for a definite answer, since that is impossible for you to know. I just am asking do you think these debates are an exercise in futility, or do you really have a hope of getting what you are after?

I am after a faith that can stand up to scrutiny--one that is coherent and reasonable. I want a reason to believe Child B over the others.

By the way, I asked you in one thread if you could give an example of where you had accepted an answer you were given as acceptable and gone on.

Two off the top of my head:

1. I started a thread about eternal torture. It ended up a debate between those who believe in this doctrine and the so-called "annihilationists". There was more scriptural support (I guess) for the eternal torture doctrine, so I moved on.

2. On that same thread you're referring to, a couple of posters answered my question about God's reasons for ordering the death of babies (that it needed to be done in order to pave the way for Jesus, in sum). Notice that I thanked that poster for his answer and that we are no longer discussing that issue. You want to turn that thread into the Copper Scroll Show and interrogate me about my beliefs (again).

Now, with these examples, maybe you will stop implying that I lie habitually.

I accept it as proof you can at times accept a reasonable answer. God does give us a free will.
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COPPER SCROLL,

You don't really answer the question I asked. Given the scenario about the parent, the children, and the cookie, how is choosing one's religion not a guessing game? or is it a guessing game? As far as I can tell, Child C still has to guess who is right.

BUTERO,

I tried to answer that already. You see, I never gave it a second thought as to who the true and living God is or if the Bible is God's Word. My parents were both believers. My Father was originally Catholic and my Mother Baptist. They wound up joining a Methodist Church as a sort of compromise. That is the church I was raised in. Back at that time, I didn't even realize one church was different from another. I started learning about doctrinal differences after accepting Jesus as my savior when I was 17. I got a King James Bible and read it and then sought out a church that was in line with it. The closest one I found at the time was a Pentecostal Holiness Church, but since that time, as I have read it over and over and studied the scriptures, I have found problems in all churches. My views today are scattered across denominational lines. I agree with some things one church teaches and others another church teaches. There was a question over Christian doctrine, but not over the validity of the Bible, or whether other religions were equally valid. That was back then. Now let me delve a little further.

I have heard many different speakers over the years, but the one that influenced my beliefs more than anyone was Myles Munroe. It is not that I am an avid follower of his. I only know a handful of his doctrines, but I heard a sermon he gave one night on TBN and it changed my whole way of looking at the Bible. He was a real life ambassador. He explained that as such, he was not allowed to give personal opinions in representing his nation. It was always the position of the government. He then went on to explain how the Bible is God's Word, and as an ambassador of Christ, his views must line up with it. It would be like the Constitution if you will of the Kingdom of Heaven. That message made more sense to me than perhaps anything I had heard before or sense when it comes to how I am to represent God. I would doubt Myles Munroe believes like I do on all issues, as a matter of fact, I would say he doesn't, but that one message has changed my approach to everything. In preaching, I seek the most Biblical view. In counseling I try my best to push my feelings aside and go strictly by the Bible. That has been difficult at times, especially in cases of divorce. There are many couples with serious problems, that in my own mind might be justified in splitting up and finding someone else, but God's word says differently. As his ambassador, his view becomes my view. It is not a matter of simply picking the safest option or even betting on the right god. It is a matter of dying to self, so Jesus might live. It is a matter of throwing my feelings out the window, and being completely sold out and loyal to the God of the Bible. You may not agree with that, or be able to do as I have done, but hopefully at least you understand me better.

I can appreciate this, even if I don't agree. It appears that you owe your Christianity to your culture and the particular Christain doctrines you accept to your personal experiences. I'm sure you can understand and appreciate (even if you don't entirely agree) with the same process happening for a person who grows up in a different culture and who has different personal experiences. These experiential forces can guide a person in a direction you view as totally unacceptable and worthy of eternal torture. Are these experiential forces this person's fault? I know you believe that there is no excuse, but try taking yourself out of your shoes and putting yourself in the shoes of a child who grows up in an African village where the Christians exploit the local economy ruthlessly and the Muslims reek political havoc... or a Muslim whose father and brother were killed in the Crusades... or a Native American whose nation was massacred by Christian Europeans. You don't have to answer these individually. The point is that people have all sorts of experiences vis a vis Christianity. We live in a world in which a genius can't tell the difference between a Christian spreading the gospel and a con man. (Here, I'm referring to CharlieC--a recent poster in this forum.) How are the people supposed to know that Christianity is right and that the Bible is inerrant?

COPPER SCROLL,

I am after a faith that can stand up to scrutiny--one that is coherent and reasonable. I want a reason to believe Child B over the others.

BUTERO,

Who are the others?

Other religions, faiths, worldviews, philosophies that may not line up with the parent's true message. They often have their own documents--some as old as or older than the Bible.

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Butero......Good post.

eric.

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Why do people who claim to know God personally, find it necessary to quote from the Bible what other people who claimed to know God, wrote? Personally, I am more interested in what God tells the individual, than what the individual can produce from the writings of others (who claimed to know God).

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Basically the very creation is a witness of God. Our very existence is a witness of God. The way he looks at it, common sense would dictate the existence of a divine creator, so the human race is without excuse.

I agree, but (according to you and others) salvation requires more than believing that God created the world and all life.

Also, it is my belief if a person from any culture is truly seeking to find the true and living God he will reveal himself to them.

I'm inclined to agree with this too. But my own experiences with God have been vague--genuine and real, but vague and implicit. The more I think about it, the more I realize how my cultural and personal experiences have colored what I experienced. You know how we can perceive some phenomena that may not make sense in itself and then our mind has this mechanism that organizes all of our sensory information into a whole and sensible experience? I think our cultural and personal biases work in a similar way. If we have an experience with God and are raised in a Christian environment, our tendency is to interpret our experience through a Christian/biblical lens. This is why rationally, I can't judge people who say they have genuine non-Christian religous experiences. I'm more inclined to try and figure out what is common among our experiences through various religious faiths and even non-religious experiences with the Higher Power.

And thank you for those scriptures.

My belief on this matter is that if there are people in any part of the world that have not heard the gospel, but they diligently reach out to know the true and living God, he will reveal himself to them somehow. You may ask, what about those raised in homes believing in Ala or some other god? I still believe if they want to know the true and living God and seek to find him, he will make a way.

I hope you'll agree that many many Muslims have very genuine faith in their God (which they claim is the same as your God). True Muslims are extremely pious and almost ascetic. They pray all the time. They study their scripture. But through all of this, most (if not all) stay Muslims. Through their diligent work in seeking God, they remain Muslims. I'm inclined to respect this and to think no less of them.

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If scripture could settle arguements, there wouldn't be over 2000 Christian denominations.

Actually, Azor it has been estimated as over 30,000 different christian denominations.

I would like to know your source of information, also are you here to teach, learn or just trolling. After all you are a newbie and you have only contriuted four posts, which to be honest are a bit confusing.

Sorry, bro, not trying to be rude, just enquiring and would like to remind you to check the board's TOS and SOF.

cheers,

eric.

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