Brother Chad Posted April 5, 2006 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 136 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 7 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/16/2006 Status: Offline Author Share Posted April 5, 2006 It is incorrect to say or to imply that faith is not complete. It is also incorrect to state that faith alone does not bring salvation. God's free justification of the believers is based upon the sacrifice of Christ, because He accomplished an eternal redemption for them. It is because of the sacrifice of Christ that God also justified the believers through their faith (Rom. 3:24-28; 1 Cor. 6:11; Gal. 2:16). The end result of faith is absolutely salvation (1 Pet. 1:9). So we can have faith in Jesus and not do any of the things which He commanded us to do and still be saved. We can have faith in Jesus and not follow His Word and still be saved. You are speaking of faith without saving faith. Saving faith will lead us to die to our old selves by repenting of sins (Jesus' death), water baptism by immersion in Jesus' name for remission of sins (be buried with Christ), and to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost (resurrection of Jesus). These are all clearly related in the Bible. We must not just accept the gospel of Jesus Christ, we must also apply that gospel to our lives by obedience to its requirements. It takes both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WISDOM Posted April 5, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 128 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,692 Content Per Day: 0.21 Reputation: 17 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/24/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/31/1952 Share Posted April 5, 2006 It is incorrect to say or to imply that faith is not complete. It is also incorrect to state that faith alone does not bring salvation. God's free justification of the believers is based upon the sacrifice of Christ, because He accomplished an eternal redemption for them. It is because of the sacrifice of Christ that God also justified the believers through their faith (Rom. 3:24-28; 1 Cor. 6:11; Gal. 2:16). The end result of faith is absolutely salvation (1 Pet. 1:9). So we can have faith in Jesus and not do any of the things which He commanded us to do and still be saved. We can have faith in Jesus and not follow His Word and still be saved. You are speaking of faith without saving faith. Saving faith will lead us to die to our old selves by repenting of sins (Jesus' death), water baptism by immersion in Jesus' name for remission of sins (be buried with Christ), and to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost (resurrection of Jesus). These are all clearly related in the Bible. We must not just accept the gospel of Jesus Christ, we must also apply that gospel to our lives by obedience to its requirements. It takes both. It was this same form of thinking that caused the Pharisees to add to the basic Laws GOD gave, and put a stranglehold on the people of Israel. They put comma's where GOD had put period's (Matthew 23:1-36) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ovedya Posted April 5, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 375 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 11,400 Content Per Day: 1.44 Reputation: 125 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/14/1971 Share Posted April 5, 2006 -The word baptism comes from the Greek word bapto which means "to dip." There were other Greek words to indicate sprinkling, but God chose a word to indicate immersion. -Immersion is the only mode of baptism the Bible records. John the Baptist used the Jordan River (Mark 1:5, 9). John immersed Jesus: "And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water" (Matthew 3:16). Philip immersed the Ethiopian eunuch: "They went down both into the water.... and he baptized him. And when they were come up out of the water" (Acts 8:38-39). -Paul used baptism to relate a burial with Christ, "Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life" (Romans 6:4). No one is buried by sprinkling or pouring a little dirt on the body, by only by complete submergence. -Since Bible days, other forms of baptism have arisen, but the Bible never describes these forms. Sprinkling and pouring came about as a matter of convenience. Infant baptism, triple baptism by some trinitarians, and postponement of baptism until the deathbed (an attempt to live one's life in sin and still be saved) are all nonbiblical baptismal practices and made immersion even more inconvenient. Here are some reasons why the mode of baptism is important: -Baptism is a biblical command. Since the Bible puts so much emphasis on baptism, we should perform as close to the way the Bible describes it. -Jesus was immersed as an example for us to follow. It is worth doing the way Jesus and His apostles did it. -Other modes of baptism were invented from nonbiblical tradition. Jesus condemned tradition fervently when it caused a deviation from God's Word (Mark 7:8; Matthew 15:6). -The only advantage sprinkling has is convenience and is a poor excuse for not following the Bible. -Immersion demonstrates obedience to God and respect for His Word. -Only by immersion do we retain the significance of baptism as a burial with Christ. See, this is what I was talking about when I wrote, "But the problem is that some denominations believe (I believe falsely) that the various doctinal issues pertaining to some religious practices (Such as baptism and speaking in tongues, for example.) in the church are essentials of the faith, and even to salvation." Even though you may openly confess to not knowing, or not being in the position to judge another's salvation, your statements with regard to the "mode of baptism" (ie. the religious practice and procedure of baptism) clearly infer that those who do not follow this certain prescribed method have not received a "genuine baptism." Coupled with your previous post concerning the necessary practices to receive a complete salavtion, one can only arrive at the conclusion of your belief that, unless someone observes strict religious practices and dogmas, genuine salvation cannot be obtained. While I personally believe that immersion is significant, and is according to the pattern which we see in the Bible, there is no reason whatsoever to invalidate the baptisms of other believers taken by sprinkling. Invalidating such practices not only divides the Body of Christ, it misses the entire purpose of baptism in the first place, which is a condition of the heart on the one hand and a public testimony of sanctification on the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ovedya Posted April 5, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 375 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 11,400 Content Per Day: 1.44 Reputation: 125 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/14/1971 Share Posted April 5, 2006 It is incorrect to say or to imply that faith is not complete. It is also incorrect to state that faith alone does not bring salvation. God's free justification of the believers is based upon the sacrifice of Christ, because He accomplished an eternal redemption for them. It is because of the sacrifice of Christ that God also justified the believers through their faith (Rom. 3:24-28; 1 Cor. 6:11; Gal. 2:16). The end result of faith is absolutely salvation (1 Pet. 1:9). So we can have faith in Jesus and not do any of the things which He commanded us to do and still be saved. We can have faith in Jesus and not follow His Word and still be saved. You are speaking of faith without saving faith. Saving faith will lead us to die to our old selves by repenting of sins (Jesus' death), water baptism by immersion in Jesus' name for remission of sins (be buried with Christ), and to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost (resurrection of Jesus). These are all clearly related in the Bible. We must not just accept the gospel of Jesus Christ, we must also apply that gospel to our lives by obedience to its requirements. It takes both. There is no distinction between faith and "saving faith" in the Bible. "Saving faith" is a religious term coined entirely outside the realm of Biblical truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Chad Posted April 5, 2006 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 136 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 7 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/16/2006 Status: Offline Author Share Posted April 5, 2006 Ovedya asks, Also, do you believe that without water baptism and the gift of tongue speaking, then faith isn't genuine or that salvation is "incomplete"? Why would God begin a work of faith in the believer and then not finish it, or expect that a believer should finish it through works? Yes, it is my belief that without water baptism salvation is Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Chad Posted April 5, 2006 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 136 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 7 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/16/2006 Status: Offline Author Share Posted April 5, 2006 It is incorrect to say or to imply that faith is not complete. It is also incorrect to state that faith alone does not bring salvation. God's free justification of the believers is based upon the sacrifice of Christ, because He accomplished an eternal redemption for them. It is because of the sacrifice of Christ that God also justified the believers through their faith (Rom. 3:24-28; 1 Cor. 6:11; Gal. 2:16). The end result of faith is absolutely salvation (1 Pet. 1:9). So we can have faith in Jesus and not do any of the things which He commanded us to do and still be saved. We can have faith in Jesus and not follow His Word and still be saved. You are speaking of faith without saving faith. Saving faith will lead us to die to our old selves by repenting of sins (Jesus' death), water baptism by immersion in Jesus' name for remission of sins (be buried with Christ), and to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost (resurrection of Jesus). These are all clearly related in the Bible. We must not just accept the gospel of Jesus Christ, we must also apply that gospel to our lives by obedience to its requirements. It takes both. There is no distinction between faith and "saving faith" in the Bible. "Saving faith" is a religious term coined entirely outside the realm of Biblical truth. Then by your stance, even the devils are saved. "You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WISDOM Posted April 5, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 128 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,692 Content Per Day: 0.21 Reputation: 17 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/24/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/31/1952 Share Posted April 5, 2006 It is incorrect to say or to imply that faith is not complete. It is also incorrect to state that faith alone does not bring salvation. God's free justification of the believers is based upon the sacrifice of Christ, because He accomplished an eternal redemption for them. It is because of the sacrifice of Christ that God also justified the believers through their faith (Rom. 3:24-28; 1 Cor. 6:11; Gal. 2:16). The end result of faith is absolutely salvation (1 Pet. 1:9). So we can have faith in Jesus and not do any of the things which He commanded us to do and still be saved. We can have faith in Jesus and not follow His Word and still be saved. You are speaking of faith without saving faith. Saving faith will lead us to die to our old selves by repenting of sins (Jesus' death), water baptism by immersion in Jesus' name for remission of sins (be buried with Christ), and to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost (resurrection of Jesus). These are all clearly related in the Bible. We must not just accept the gospel of Jesus Christ, we must also apply that gospel to our lives by obedience to its requirements. It takes both. There is no distinction between faith and "saving faith" in the Bible. "Saving faith" is a religious term coined entirely outside the realm of Biblical truth. Then by your stance, even the devils are saved. "You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ovedya Posted April 5, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 375 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 11,400 Content Per Day: 1.44 Reputation: 125 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/14/1971 Share Posted April 5, 2006 Then by your stance, even the devils are saved. "You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ovedya Posted April 5, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 375 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 11,400 Content Per Day: 1.44 Reputation: 125 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/14/1971 Share Posted April 5, 2006 So my question is what do the different denominations believe is required for our salvation? Please give your denomination in your reply as this is for study purposes? Thank you for any help! Brother Chad, The statement quoted from your original post above appears to be in contrast with your most recent postings. Was the original intent of this thread to ask about salvational requirements, or to challenge others' doctinal understandings with your own? Sorry if I seem a bit suspicious, but there appears to be an agenda in your postings here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WISDOM Posted April 5, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 128 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,692 Content Per Day: 0.21 Reputation: 17 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/24/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/31/1952 Share Posted April 5, 2006 Bo...let me also apologize for intervening on two posts, which were directed to you vice myself. I allowed the "urge" to get the better of me, and I do stand corrected. "Thinking Cap" was in my briefcase...."Impulsive Hat" was in my hand. Sorry old pal... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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