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Revelations does not tell the Church what to do during the tribulation. I believe this means the Church will not be here when the tribulation occurs...

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Revelations does not tell the Church what to do during the tribulation. I believe this means the Church will not be here when the tribulation occurs...

Greetings Senerhu,

Words mean something, other than just conjecture or what you want them to mean by redefining them. Who do you believe the "tribulation saints" (as some have labeled them) are? If you say that they are those who are given a "second chance" to accept Christ, then you cannot criticize those who believe in "purgatory". Actually purgatory is a place where a person must "fill up" his punishment because Christ's atonement was insufficient. We are told in the scriptures that TODAY is the day of salvation. TODAY is the day between Pentecost and the Lord's 2nd coming at which time He will call His people "out of this world". Are those "tribulation saints" OF CHRIST? Is Christ going to leave ANY of His Saints behind? Doesn't the parable of the 10 virgins tell you Christ is coming FOR ALL His saints? Why then would He leave ANY behind? To make them suffer the torments of the SEALS, because His blood was insufficient? I really think not.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

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Guest Thomas I believe

Revelations does not tell the Church what to do during the tribulation. I believe this means the Church will not be here when the tribulation occurs...

Greetings Senerhu,

Words mean something, other than just conjecture or what you want them to mean by redefining them. Who do you believe the "tribulation saints" (as some have labeled them) are? If you say that they are those who are given a "second chance" to accept Christ, then you cannot criticize those who believe in "purgatory". Actually purgatory is a place where a person must "fill up" his punishment because Christ's atonement was insufficient. We are told in the scriptures that TODAY is the day of salvation. TODAY is the day between Pentecost and the Lord's 2nd coming at which time He will call His people "out of this world". Are those "tribulation saints" OF CHRIST? Is Christ going to leave ANY of His Saints behind? Doesn't the parable of the 10 virgins tell you Christ is coming FOR ALL His saints? Why then would He leave ANY behind? To make them suffer the torments of the SEALS, because His blood was insufficient? I really think not.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

Exactly Dad Ernie. :thumbsup:

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This old topic comes up frequently on this board, and so it should, because there are new christians passing through who are seeking the truth about the matter, and until people can understand the differnce between the tribulation and the wrath there will always be confusion, because it's His wrath that His saints will be spared of, not the tribulation.

God is not the cause of the tribulation, the adversary.............( your choice ) is.

God does pour out his wrath immediately after the resurrected saints have been removed,

My question has always been......If it is the adversary that makes war against the saints, how does he accomplish this if all the saints have been raptured before he starts the war.?

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Guest jckduboise
This old topic comes up frequently on this board, and so it should, because there are new christians passing through who are seeking the truth about the matter, and until people can understand the differnce between the tribulation and the wrath there will always be confusion, because it's His wrath that His saints will be spared of, not the tribulation.

God is not the cause of the tribulation, the adversary.............( your choice ) is.

God does pour out his wrath immediately after the resurrected saints have been removed,

My question has always been......If it is the adversary that makes war against the saints, how does he accomplish this if all the saints have been raptured before he starts the war.?

Okay, so what you are asking is how can we logically believe that the war against the saints happens if we are all raptured because then there would be no more war.

But once we are raptured there is still a spiritual war going on that is working against the wrath that is being poured out on the nations by God. Now does it not make sense that there will be those who are not raptured but because of the horror of those days will come to believe in God and turn their lives over to Jesus? This would leave "saints" still on the earth fighting this war even after the rapture. I do believe there will be people who turn there lives over before the second coming and will also be taken into heaven after the tribulation. How can there not be?

This is merely speculation but it does make sense to me. How many times have you heard of someone being in hell on earth and then something earth shattering occurs and they finally hear the Lord's call? :blink:

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Guest jckduboise

Revelations does not tell the Church what to do during the tribulation. I believe this means the Church will not be here when the tribulation occurs...

Greetings Senerhu,

Words mean something, other than just conjecture or what you want them to mean by redefining them. Who do you believe the "tribulation saints" (as some have labeled them) are? If you say that they are those who are given a "second chance" to accept Christ, then you cannot criticize those who believe in "purgatory". Actually purgatory is a place where a person must "fill up" his punishment because Christ's atonement was insufficient. We are told in the scriptures that TODAY is the day of salvation. TODAY is the day between Pentecost and the Lord's 2nd coming at which time He will call His people "out of this world". Are those "tribulation saints" OF CHRIST? Is Christ going to leave ANY of His Saints behind? Doesn't the parable of the 10 virgins tell you Christ is coming FOR ALL His saints? Why then would He leave ANY behind? To make them suffer the torments of the SEALS, because His blood was insufficient? I really think not.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

Exactly Dad Ernie. :blink:

All through the bible God gives those who have hardened hearts chance after chance to change their ways and turn to him. Even though the saints are going to be raptured there will still be people here. And truth is that God's wrath has poured out many times and He still wishes that none should perish. Why would he not leave room for those to change before the 2nd coming of Christ?

Is not the second coming of Christ after the Rapture? :24:

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All through the bible God gives those who have hardened hearts chance after chance to change their ways and turn to him. Even though the saints are going to be raptured there will still be people here. And truth is that God's wrath has poured out many times and He still wishes that none should perish. Why would he not leave room for those to change before the 2nd coming of Christ?

Is not the second coming of Christ after the Rapture? :blink:

Greetings JckDuboise,

Consider:

Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Revelation 7:13-14 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

A multitude without number. Is Christ going to leave them behind? I think not.

Yes, God is a God of second and third and so on chances, but right now we are living in this day of grace. It will continue through the tribulation to Christ's 2nd advent. At that time Christ will send His angels out to gather ALL the elect from the face of the earth. You may want to read Matt 24 carefully.

There are so many holes in the pre-trib notion, if you would like to dialogue about it via e-mail, PM me and I will guide you through the scriptures, or you can read them for yourself.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

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Guest jckduboise
All through the bible God gives those who have hardened hearts chance after chance to change their ways and turn to him. Even though the saints are going to be raptured there will still be people here. And truth is that God's wrath has poured out many times and He still wishes that none should perish. Why would he not leave room for those to change before the 2nd coming of Christ?

Is not the second coming of Christ after the Rapture? :blink:

Greetings JckDuboise,

Consider:

Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Revelation 7:13-14 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

A multitude without number. Is Christ going to leave them behind? I think not.

Yes, God is a God of second and third and so on chances, but right now we are living in this day of grace. It will continue through the tribulation to Christ's 2nd advent. At that time Christ will send His angels out to gather ALL the elect from the face of the earth. You may want to read Matt 24 carefully.

There are so many holes in the pre-trib notion, if you would like to dialogue about it via e-mail, PM me and I will guide you through the scriptures, or you can read them for yourself.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

Okay, I'll read then PM with q's for a's

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Man I hate this pre-trib rapture drivel. A "secret" rapture that takes place BEFORE the dead in Christ rise, and leaving behind multitudes beyond number to "fill up" their trials because Christ's blood was insufficient.

:thumbsup::24::24:

Dad Ernie

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Hi All,

I used to believe in a pre-tribulation rapture but after studying the scripture God has changed my point of view several years ago. Here are a few reasons I no longer can justify a pre-trib rapture.

I will try and make it brief but would encourage reading Revelation 18-20, very powerful in the debate as to the timing of our rapture which I believe to be post tribulation and pre-wrath.

In Revelation 18, you read the how Babylon has fallen and God is about to pour out His wrath, I will site the following verses.

4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, My people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues

I believe this teaches that it as at this point that the rapture occurs. Also notice that this is during the later part of what we call the "Great Tribulation" and Babylon has fallen.

Notice that God calls out His people...... why?

e calls us out that we be not partakers of her sins and that we receive not of her plagues..........in other words God is about to judge her for her sins ....."Recieve not of her plagues.

T o save space here I would highly encourage reading the rest of this chapter.

No look at Revelation 19, God through John gives us some key words here. Again I am going to try and make it brief so as not to write a book, and would encourage reading the entire chapter and ask God to reveal His truth.

Rev 19:1 "And after these things................

After what things? The fall of Babylon and in my understanding the rapture of the saints. where do I come up with this? If you look at chapter 20 and start at:

5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye His servants, and ye that fear Him, both small and great.

6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and His wife hath made herself ready.

Here we see all the saints before the throne of God, and the bride has made herself ready to be married to the Lamb.

Who is the Lamb?........... Jesus

Who is the bride?..........The church.

When does this happen?..............after the fall of Babylon and before God pours His wrath out upon her.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

9 And He saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And He saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

Now after the supper, the next event is Jesus returning to pour Gods wrath on the world.

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and He that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

Look who comes back with Him.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed Him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Notice that the Armies are in heaven and that they are clothed in fine linen white and clean, now look back at the description of the bride (Church), that it is we who return with Jesus and if you look at the next verse, we see again it is at this time that God pours out His wrath

15 And out of His mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it He should smite the nations: and He shall rule them with a rod of iron: and He treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Again I would encourage reading the whole chapter as a matter the whole book and ask God to speak to you and reveal His truth.

In Chapter 20 we see another picture of the fact that the church does go through the tribulation:

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the Word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Who is it that hold the witness of Jesus?..........the church.

Now notice what the saints were beheaded for..

1) The witness of Jesus.... isn't this the church who does this?

2) The Word of God............again the church is a witness to the truth of the Word of God

3) Which had not worshiped the beast.................Now the beast does not make his appearance until the tribulation period, how can the saints be beheaded for not worshiping the beast if they have already been raptured?

4) Nor his image...........again this doe not happen until the tribulation period according to the scripture.

5) Nor had received his mark on their heads or hans.....again a tribulation period event of which I ask again, how can the church (those who hold the witness of Jesus and His Word) refuse this mark if they are already gone?

verse 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

This is the first resurrection!!!! It doesn't get much clearer that this. The scripture says that this is the first resurrection.

Now if you compare this to 1 Thess 4 which many, including myself describes the event of the rapture, I am sure you will agree that the rapture concurs with Rev 20 and is the same event as Rev 18.

16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

This describes the ressurection.

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Notice that we who were not in the resurrection are alive and are "caught up together" (raptured) and we meet with them in the clouds and we meet the Lord, Praise God and we are forever with Him. This means that there are some who will not taste death, it does not say that they will die, it says that they will "forever" be with The Lord!

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Paul instructs to comfort one another with these words.....words of what?..........words of the rapture or our being caught up together with those who have passed on before us and are resurrected to God and those who are alive in Christ at this time will be caught up (raptured) with those who are dead in in Christ.

The doctrine rapture should bring us comfort not controversy.

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Blessed is he who has a part.........who is it that has a part? see 1 Thess 4.l

Notice it says that those who partake in the first resurrection shall be priest of God and Christ and kings ".........shall reign with Him"

Now compare this to Rev 1

5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

This sure sounds like the church to me. Again I would encourage your reading these chapters for yourself asking God to reveal the truth to you. If you should arrive at a different conclusion that I have, I would be interested in reading them.

We should be encouraged by this and should be all the more excited about God and His promises that are to be revealed in Jesus, we are in the last days and as George is always encouraging us in "there is so much work to be done".

Luke 21:28

And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

In Jesus

kevin

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