larryt Posted July 30, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 52 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,230 Content Per Day: 0.31 Reputation: 124 Days Won: 1 Joined: 08/22/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/03/1952 Share Posted July 30, 2006 Where there is a great misunderstanding in Eschatology and that is obvious in this thread. The "last trumpet" of 1 Thess IS NOT the same as the trumpets in Revelation. Because they are not the same, then one can properly place the rapture before any of the tribulation as God has it. Hi L for God, You make a bold statement in your post and I must ask the question: Why not? Consider these verses. Mt 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.Here Jesus tells His disciples that He will sent His angels to gather His ELECT. After the tribulation. Angels mentioned. Ac 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. Here it is told the disciples that Jesus will return just like He left. Descending from heaven. 1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric Posted July 30, 2006 Group: Graduated to Heaven Followers: 2 Topic Count: 50 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,073 Content Per Day: 0.52 Reputation: 43 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/02/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/10/1923 Share Posted July 30, 2006 CJ Of course you are absolutely right. I'm sorry I went off half cocked and got my wires crossed. I was actualy meaning it was the 2nd temple that Jesus was meaning when He mention trib in Matt.24:21. Goodness knows I've read it often enough. Below is an extract from a site that I will post at the end. In the last week of His life, Jesus pronounced judgment upon the nation and spoke of the coming destruction of this Second Temple. Then Jesus went out and departed from the temple, and His disciples came to Him to show Him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down." (Matthew 24: 1-2) According to Jesus, not one stone would be left upon another when the Temple was destroyed. Jesus also predicted the destruction of the city of Jerusalem: But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. Then let those in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart and let not those who are in the country enter her. (Luke 21:20-22). The prophet Daniel had also predicted the destruction of the Second Temple: And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; and the people of the prince who is to come (the Romans) shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. (Daniel 9:26) Daniel's prediction said that the Messiah would come to Jerusalem and be cut off (put to death) followed by yet another destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple. And so there was to be a Second 9th of Av catastrophe on the Temple Mount. It was to come 655 years after the first. Reference: link here. Really CJ Iwas trying to locate where it says in the word there will be a seven year trib period, but I can't find it. I agree there will be great trib, but it could be over in seven days or weeks. I hope this irons things out. eric. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larryt Posted July 30, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 52 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,230 Content Per Day: 0.31 Reputation: 124 Days Won: 1 Joined: 08/22/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/03/1952 Share Posted July 30, 2006 The rapture is NOT the second coming. The second coming is when Jesus returns all the way to earth, as he left, to the Mount of Olives. This happens at the end of the tribulation, but the rapture comes before any of the 7 years. "Bold statements" as one said about my comment about the trumpets comes from knowing the difference and seeing the error that many here believe are the same, yet are different. You're not talking to an average Christian here. Take advantage of scholarly advice. Again, as God said.... not all pearls are to be thrown to the swine. Not all will just be handed out to be openly criticized and thought to be error by this group here. God is not in error. Anyone who really cares can im me. I see no one did. Yet. Just where do you come off as the expert in this matter as you imply by your statement. You claim to be "not the average Christian here," but claims only indicate pride if you cannot back up what you say by scripture. You talk just like a lawyer. Please explain why the last trumpet is not the last trumpet. These "pearls" as you call them are just paste if they cannot be backed by scripture. There will be many disappointed Christians in my view when they are rounded up and thrown into prison in this country and around the world because they were hoping in a rapture to avoid the persecution. Persecution and martyrdom should be the norm in Christianity. And should be happening to all that live godly in Christ Jesus. I haven't heard of any recent martyrs in the US. Have you? Must mean that there is not much godly living here. Jesus came to bring a sword not peace(between men). LT Just where in scripture does it say that there is a rapture 7 years before The Tribulation? What scripture are your referring to so we can examine what it is that you are referring to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larryt Posted August 1, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 52 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,230 Content Per Day: 0.31 Reputation: 124 Days Won: 1 Joined: 08/22/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/03/1952 Share Posted August 1, 2006 HI C_J, Just like to address this one statement by yourself. His ELECT are the 144,000 please re-read Rev 7:1-8 (The Sixth Seal) as you quite noticeably pointed out, they are referred to as the "Elect". Elect means chosen especially by preference or for excellence : carefully selected : EXCLUSIVE, CHOICE. This would hardly describe a multitude of sinners being saved or resurrected during the end of the tribulation. Verse 31 could be a reference to Christs rapturing of the 144,000 following their ministry of the 5th Seal to which the 5th seal saints come to Messiah. However, verse 30 concerns Israel and the Jews who refused to aknowledge that Jesus was their Messiah..."30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory". Christ is now returning to earth to establish his Messianic Reign over the earth and their will be a great mourning in Israel because they will finally see the truth that they had rejected their saviour as was foretold by the Prophets. Why do you say the ELECT in Matt. 24 are the 144,000 on Rev? Paul, Peter, & John refer to the church, all the saints as the ELECT of God. Ro 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larryt Posted August 1, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 52 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,230 Content Per Day: 0.31 Reputation: 124 Days Won: 1 Joined: 08/22/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/03/1952 Share Posted August 1, 2006 Hi C_J, Why don't you think that Paul could have been given revelation about the time of the end? "1Co 15:51 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larryt Posted August 1, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 52 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,230 Content Per Day: 0.31 Reputation: 124 Days Won: 1 Joined: 08/22/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/03/1952 Share Posted August 1, 2006 Just where in scripture does it say that there is a rapture 7 years before The Tribulation? What scripture are your referring to so we can examine what it is that you are referring to? You read his post incorrectly, he said the Rapture happens before the Tribulation and that the Tribulation is seven years. Peace CJ Ok where does it say that the rapture happens then there will be 7 yrs of Great Tribulation? Just where in scripture does it say that there is a rapture 7 years before the end of The Tribulation? LT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floatingaxe Posted August 1, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 9,613 Content Per Day: 1.45 Reputation: 656 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/11/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/31/1952 Share Posted August 1, 2006 The rapture is NOT the second coming. The second coming is when Jesus returns all the way to earth, as he left, to the Mount of Olives. This happens at the end of the tribulation, but the rapture comes before any of the 7 years. "Bold statements" as one said about my comment about the trumpets comes from knowing the difference and seeing the error that many here believe are the same, yet are different. You're not talking to an average Christian here. Take advantage of scholarly advice. Again, as God said.... not all pearls are to be thrown to the swine. Not all will just be handed out to be openly criticized and thought to be error by this group here. God is not in error. Anyone who really cares can im me. I see no one did. Yet. I agree. So many people think that the rapture event is the second coming. It isn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littlejoe Posted August 6, 2006 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 13 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 125 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/08/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted August 6, 2006 My friends this is what I believe,and I don't say that anyone on this board has to believe as I do.There are some here who will disagree, that"s ok. We all feel very strongly about our beliefs sometimes to the point we are very harsh with our brothers and sister's in Christ who are on these boards. I would like to sugguest that when we come to part of Christian's tradition that differs from ours for example in the subject of Eschatology That we state what we believe and if we know the scripture ref, use them. I am a student of the bible, there are some verse's I have memorized and many more that I have read. I recoginze there are many more mature Christians on this board than I. I would like to remind all that we all started in the same Place as babes in Christ. Some of us are still growing,please don't be mad ro angry with anyone because he/she is not exactly where you are at this given Time. What I try to do when a brother or sister in Christ disagrees with me after we tried to explain our point of view a few times and neither one can see what the other is talking about, then I will argee to disagree without any name calling,or trying to run down that person's belief. In the Love of God we share let us agree to disagree and let The Lord Jesus resolve this issue between us when He returns. With all that being said, here goes, I have read many of the post about rapture of the church, I see some here using different words when they talk about it. I believe the Church will be raptured before the time of Jacob's Trouble. This time is also refered to the tribulation period. And I know there is a verse that says we will suffer tribulation,and I also believe God. I have suffered as many of you this for me is the tribulation that God talks about when He is talking about His servants. We should expect no less, Are the servants better than their Master? I believe the pre-trib rapture of the Church for quite a few reasons some I have already stated on other post so I "ll try not to repeat myself. I believe the Church will have this blessing because we are all members of His Body with Him at the Head. I would like to remind everyone that God has Saints in both The Old and New Testaments. I don"t believe the Saints of The Old Testament are a part of the Church. There will also be Saints from The Time of Jacob's Trouble. I believe both The Old Testament Saints and The New testament Saints will enter into The Kingdom of God together with The Church. From what I can see in The Old testament times there were two types of people, The Jews and The gentiles. In The new testament I see Three groups of people ,The Jews,the gentiles,and the church. In the old testament the Jews are called His Wife, In the new The Church is called His Bride, can"t be the same thing. The Jewish People are called His Chosen People, We Christian's are His people by adoption. There is also the matter of the sheep nations.(gentile nations in blessing) This post is getting rather long and it is getting late here. So I would like to finish this with this comment, I would greatly appreciate all your comments on this,and if you have questions please ask I will do my best to answer them. Love in Christ littlejoe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jckduboise Posted August 6, 2006 Share Posted August 6, 2006 littlejoe, The truth of the subject of "rapture" is that there is no such implication in the bible if we pay close attention to certain books especially Revelation. Not one time in that book are we actually told that the church will be rescued in the manner of a catching up before Christ's second return. We are told most definite things in this book for example that there will be 144,000 of the 12 tribes of Israel that will have the seal of God placed on their foreheads. If we are given such a definite detail, why would the point of rapture be left out regarding the church? It doesn't make logical sense. Also, studying and reading beyond the seal placed on the foreheads we can clearly see that the saints play key roles not only during the 3 1/2 yrs of peace with Israel but also during the 3 1/2 yrs of trial-termed as The Tribulation. with this being said, my suggestion to you is to find a good study tool for this book and seek God as you read and study for Truth in this matter. Mighty Blessings to you Brother Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jckduboise Posted August 6, 2006 Share Posted August 6, 2006 a footnote to what I have been saying lately. I used to believe in the 'rapture'. I used to dream of the day when I would be wisked away to heaven and be kept from witnessing what IS coming. But logic, listening, and studying pulled me into the realization that all of the things that God has put me through is for a reason..to be part of bringing about the end of this great prophesy..I am here and will remain here to help bring forth His Glorious return..why would anyone even want to be taken out of the play when they are given such a key role! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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