1 Corinthians 13:8, What do we do with this verse?

[David from New Bern]

He's speaking of the promise of the Holy Ghost.

This is an evangelistic sermon and the following gift of the Holy Spirit...But the obvious point it is a promise to that audience. You can't drag it out and apply it to yourself. Acts is a historical narrative.

[David from New Bern]

He's speaking of the promise of the Holy Ghost.

This is an evangelistic sermon and the following gift of the Holy Spirit...But the obvious point it is a promise to that audience. You can't drag it out and apply it to yourself. Acts is a historical narrative.

I most certainly can. That promise was to their children and their children's children and all that are afar off. All that are afar off were not part of that audience so why mention them if the message doesn't apply to them?

And the audience was Jewish...so go find it at the gentile event...

[David from New Bern]

He's speaking of the promise of the Holy Ghost.

This is an evangelistic sermon and the following gift of the Holy Spirit...But the obvious point it is a promise to that audience. You can't drag it out and apply it to yourself. Acts is a historical narrative.

I most certainly can. That promise was to their children and their children's children and all that are afar off. All that are afar off were not part of that audience so why mention them if the message doesn't apply to them?

And the audience was Jewish...so go find it at the gentile event...

Galatians 3:28 "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."

That statement contradicts scripture. In addition if it were so and God was a respector of persons, then the Jewish people would still be able to speak in tongues and the gifts would be working through them. I am thankful we are all of one spiritual tree.

Very vague point, it was specific event and a specific audience that God had authored. I nor Luke is suggesting preferential treatment here, but a specific audience with a specific purpose and the issue is salvation. It is the Biblical record that Jews are a salvific target even beyond the rapture of the church. Thus the reference to future generations.

[deadman1204]

another question following in the line of Davids. How can so many people say they possess and use the gift of tongues, but not 1 person has the gift of interpretation?

How can nearly every member of a charismatic church possess the same gift? Thats would seem to lose its impact. Gifts are to glorify God. 500 people in tongues with no translation doesnt do that. What about the more important gifts - love, prayer, faith, teaching?

Also, touching on those that mentioned they don't believe in blind faith - God considers faith to be one of the greatest acts of man. Abraham was justified by faith. Paul preached the same commonly - by faith we are saved through grace. Its throughout the bible. Look at every example of people doing great things by faith in the bible - they had NO proof. You think David had any logical reason to think he would beat Goliath? What about Noah. God didnt speak to him for 100 years while he was building the ark! Just one message and then silence for over a century! Without that blind trust the human race would be gone! What about the apostles leaving thier lives to follow Jesus. They had no evidence they were doing anything but throwing thier lives away. Faith. Not proof. If you require proof for your faith in God, satan has already won. You have hamstrung yourself in glorifying God and sharing his love. How it glorified God for people to hang thier entire lives on a few words, and didicate themselves to the Lords work.

Remember after Jesus rose and he was talking to Thomas, who had said he wouldnt believe till he saw Jesus and touched his wounds? And what Jesus said after Thomas had?

John 20:29b blessed [are] they that have not seen, and [yet] have believed.

We are justified by faith alone.

Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

[David from New Bern]

another question following in the line of Davids. How can so many people say they possess and use the gift of tongues, but not 1 person has the gift of interpretation?

How can nearly every member of a charismatic church possess the same gift? Thats would seem to lose its impact. Gifts are to glorify God. 500 people in tongues with no translation doesnt do that. What about the more important gifts - love, prayer, faith, teaching?

Also, touching on those that mentioned they don't believe in blind faith - God considers faith to be one of the greatest acts of man. Abraham was justified by faith. Paul preached the same commonly - by faith we are saved through grace. Its throughout the bible. Look at every example of people doing great things by faith in the bible - they had NO proof. You think David had any logical reason to think he would beat Goliath? What about Noah. God didnt speak to him for 100 years while he was building the ark! Just one message and then silence for over a century! Without that blind trust the human race would be gone! What about the apostles leaving thier lives to follow Jesus. They had no evidence they were doing anything but throwing thier lives away. Faith. Not proof. If you require proof for your faith in God, satan has already won. You have hamstrung yourself in glorifying God and sharing his love. How it glorified God for people to hang thier entire lives on a few words, and didicate themselves to the Lords work.

Remember after Jesus rose and he was talking to Thomas, who had said he wouldnt believe till he saw Jesus and touched his wounds? And what Jesus said after Thomas had?

John 20:29b blessed [are] they that have not seen, and [yet] have believed.

We are justified by faith alone.

Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Maybe we weren't clear enough with our statement. Blind faith is a leap in the dark with no instruction to do so. God gives His promises or gives His instructions and therefore our response is not blind it is faith in Him, His promises, or obedience to His instructions. The definition of faith plays on trust of Him and not our own logic or read on circumstances. That is what we mean...or at least what I mean by, "God has never required "blind faith". Noah, Abraham, David all had the promise of God to perform certain acts in their life in the future. So faith for them was to act on those promises and dismiss fear and the devising of an alternate human plan.

I might add to your comments that the modern practice of tongues has tied it closely to foretelling of the future of which there is no Biblical precedence. We get caught up in what Paul called the least of the gifts and the least impressive. Has anyone been witness to someone being raised from the dead? There is a Biblical precedence of that in the first century church.

[David from New Bern]

I will just add one response to the last 3 posts. First of all, those who claim the speech was just to the Jews, (while I think this is ludacrous) still can not get around the fact it was to them, their children's children and all that are afar off. That would mean the gifts belong to the Jewish people today.

Concerning interpretation of tongues, yes there are people that possess this gift. I have seen it used many times in church services. The issue over why so many speak in tongues (or as one said, have the gift of tongues) is a misunderstanding of what is really taking place. There is a difference in praying in tongues and gift of tongues. Praying in tongues is an ability all Holy Ghost Baptised believers possess and is for their personal edification. The Spirit prays directly for them to God for their needs. Gift of tongues is not possessed by everyone that is Baptised in the Holy Ghost and is a message given for the edification of others. That is why an interpretation must follow.

First paragraph proves you are not following the development of the storyline of the book of Acts. Peter was preaching a salvation message, he was in fact planting a church in Jerusalem. He was telling them that God is about to do a tremendous work in and through their jewishness. The gentile pentecost is later. The subject is salvation, the gift of salvation is the Holy Spirit indwelling them. While you can get creative and write the rest of your comments. The context of the verse you quoted stops there. It does not prove the miracles associated with the advent of Pentecost continuing, it proves that the gift of salvation was here to stay. The message of the remainder of Acts is to convince them the message of salvation was from all men. And of course the debate, were the gentiles to become Jews? etc....

Second paragraph the historical record states that "the gift of tongues" was a sign to unbelievers not believers, it was an empowerment to urgently overcome language barriers and prove the universal appeal to salvation. The "prayer language" is a forced interpretation of Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. Nothing here suggest we are making any sound and the Greek says the Holy Spirit is communicating and He is not even using words. It is hard to build a doctrine on one verse, when the Bible is a master at repeating and backing itself up with supportive revelation throughout. It is said correctly "the Bible is the world's best commentary on its self." This verse merely says the Holy Spirit knows us and and our situation and prescribes and request what is in our best interest regardless of our grasp of a situation or our awareness of our heart's condition.

[David from New Bern]

I will just add one response to the last 3 posts. First of all, those who claim the speech was just to the Jews, (while I think this is ludacrous) still can not get around the fact it was to them, their children's children and all that are afar off. That would mean the gifts belong to the Jewish people today.

Concerning interpretation of tongues, yes there are people that possess this gift. I have seen it used many times in church services. The issue over why so many speak in tongues (or as one said, have the gift of tongues) is a misunderstanding of what is really taking place. There is a difference in praying in tongues and gift of tongues. Praying in tongues is an ability all Holy Ghost Baptised believers possess and is for their personal edification. The Spirit prays directly for them to God for their needs. Gift of tongues is not possessed by everyone that is Baptised in the Holy Ghost and is a message given for the edification of others. That is why an interpretation must follow.

First paragraph proves you are not following the development of the storyline of the book of Acts. Peter was preaching a salvation message, he was in fact planting a church in Jerusalem. He was telling them that God is about to do a tremendous work in and through their jewishness. The gentile pentecost is later. The subject is salvation, the gift of salvation is the Holy Spirit indwelling them. While you can get creative and write the rest of your comments. The context of the verse you quoted stops there. It does not prove the miracles associated with the advent of Pentecost continuing, it proves that the gift of salvation was here to stay. The message of the remainder of Acts is to convince them the message of salvation was from all men. And of course the debate, were the gentiles to become Jews? etc....

Second paragraph the historical record states that "the gift of tongues" was a sign to unbelievers not believers, it was an empowerment to urgently overcome language barriers and prove the universal appeal to salvation. The "prayer language" is a forced interpretation of Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. Nothing here suggest we are making any sound and the Greek says the Holy Spirit is communicating and He is not even using words. It is hard to build a doctrine on one verse, when the Bible is a master at repeating and backing itself up with supportive revelation throughout. It is said correctly "the Bible is the world's best commentary on its self." This verse merely says the Holy Spirit knows us and and our situation and prescribes and request what is in our best interest regardless of our grasp of a situation or our awareness of our heart's condition.

Sorry for taking so long to respond David, but something urgent came up. Let's return to the text. Acts 2:37-41

37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

39 For this promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from thie untoward generation.

41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized; and the same day there were added unto them about three throusand souls.

Yes, Peter just gave a message sharing the gospel. It came right after those in the upper room had been filled with the Holy Ghost and spake in tongues, getting the attention of the crowd. It is obvious he is addressing salvation and the infilling of the Spirit in verses 38 and 39. It is also obvious the gift of the Holy Ghost, what the crowd had just witnessed, was to them, their children, their children's children, and all that are afar off as many as the Lord calls. I don't have to get creative to come to this very obvious conclusion. Also, you have failed to give a single scripture to "prove" the gifts and the Holy Ghost Baptism with the evidence of speaking in tongues will not continue till the Lord returns. You demanded scripture from me, which I provided, and gave none yourself. All you have done is claimed the scriptures I gave are being misinterpreted.

You said in the second paragraph the historical record states the gifts were a sign to the unbelievers, not believers. Why should I care what some book written by mortal men has to say? It is just opinions which I reject. By the way, I gave no forced interpretation from the scriptures in Romans. I gave the correct interpretation. If by forced you mean I took the initiative to type it out, maybe so. Let me add more scriptures to that. 1 Cor 14:1-4

1 FOLLOW after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.

2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howebeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.

4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

Likewise, please forgive the long delay in my response, I preparing a lesson on "the Abomination of Desolations" for tonight's Wednesday study here at church. I'm going to have to keep worthyboards a secret, so that my congregation will not know where I'm spending my energy today Please try to follow me as I attempt to get highly philosophical on you, but it is not a spin but a basic point of Biblical interpretation. You don't go to the Bible to try and prove a doctrine wrong. While you might have some success at that, so much errant denominational doctrine is built on the silence of Scripture. We should let Scripture draw the conclusion where it decides to and place the exclamation point of priority where it decided. So just because 1 Corinthians 13:8 does not satisfy your test in your opinion, nothing says that these gifts will remain in the church's arsenal for the entirety of the church age either. We will find greater fruit in examining the Scripture and where it draws no conclusion, draw none ourselves. If we follow the context of NT doctrine outside of the historical record of Acts, we find Paul trying to get a hold of runaway egos using the gifts as the promotions of their egos. The late J. Vernon McGee had a humorous anecdote about this tendency, "If we are all a part of the body of Christ, ......why does everyone want to be the tongue?"

[Guest Thomas I believe]

1 Corinthians 13:8 "Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away."

The verse itself simply means what it says. Charity or love will continue forever, as God himself is love. When Jesus returns, there will no longer be a need for temporal things like prophesies, tongues, and words of knowledge.

Amen and Amen !!

[David from New Bern]

As I said David, most doctrinal divisions don't come because people are simply not believing the Bible or are going on prior experiences. Most come because we read the same passages of scripture and interpret them differently. You went to a Baptist Bible College, so naturally the interpretations you gave will be what they taught you the scriptures mean. Another person may go to somewhere like East Coast Bible College of the Church of God, and I would feel pretty certain they will interpret the scriptures different from you. That was the point I was trying to make in that PM. I used to think those who felt differen't about doctrinal positions were just ignorant of what the Bible says, but came to find out many of them are very knowledgeable of scripture, but see something entirely different when they read it.

It is the same thing here. I feel confident that the way I interpreted those verses concerning the Holy Ghost are accurate, but am not surpised you don't agree. Likewise I feel like the burden is on you to prove the gifts are no longer in use and to show me scripture that proves they won't continue till Jesus returns, while you feel I must give proof they are still for today. Since it is a matter of interpretation, and I am not going to accept the words from Baptist Commentaries or Baptist ministers like J. Vernon McGee. While I have respect for him as a brother in the Lord, I don't agree with his doctrine.

By the way, you said I don't go to the Bible to try to prove a point. I guess you are claiming open mindedness, when we both know that is not the case. We are both very versed in the Bible, that is obvious. We both know what we believe, and neither one of us are going to the Bible to discover new truth in this area, we are sharing our knowledge and our point of view. You started this thread to try to show that Pentecostals have no scripture to cause them to come to the conclusion the gifts are in operation today. You wanted to show our beliefs are based on experience over Biblical substance. The fact is, that is not true. It is a matter once again of interpretation. In addition, the scripture you use to show the gifts will pass but love will remain doesn't tell us when the gifts will pass away. You conclude it was with the completion of the New Testament and I claim it is when Jesus returns. Neither one can prove the other wrong based on that verse.

Butero, I went to seminary to learn the process of Biblical exposistion. Which means interpreting the Scripture according to to context, culture, and good hernneutics (harmony) with the message of the book and the overall Christ-centric message of the Bible. They taught me how to be a student of the Word and what questions to be asking. I can honestly say, particularly in the area of Systematic Theology, I was taught various views and told I had some decision to make. You might be surprised to know I attended school with Methodist, Presbyterians, Church of God, and Wesylans. Southern Baptist are a people of no creeds our doctrinal views stated in The Baptist Faith & Message says repeatedly "these are the views most commonly held among us." I know Southern Baptist who believe like you do. The OP was not dishonest, it said help me understand what Biblical support do you have for your belief. Here is the open truth of the matter, I don't think they are forever gone, but there is no purpose for it in a all English speaking church in the place of good Biblical exposistion. But, if there comes a need for such operation again in a isolated way or with great frequency nothing will prevent it from happening Scripturally, But I believe the modern practice is nothing but emotionalism and a desire for tangible worship. Good people get pulled into this, but there is no spiritual value. But I said this, but the Scripture didn't say that David did. There is no belief of mine sacred, but the Word is, and if someone shows me in the Word, I'm in error I have and will change my theology as my eyes are opened. Butero, the only one endoctrinated to blindness is you, but I love you. Even though you are stubborn beyond belief.

[kittylover0991]

I always try to understand opposing views. I believe firmly I have no business arguing something as sacred as God's Word, if I don't care about what He cares about. He desire for the reader (every one) to understand and see the correct interpretation. The Scripture are here for our enlightenment. I would like to always approach His Word with a hunger for a deeper understanding. If I am firm in my belief, not by experience or denominational tradition but by the correct exposistion, I want others to see it as well or at least ask the right questions of the text and give the Holy Spirit opportunity to give the correct answer. I believe there is a difference between argument and a digging session. I want someone to help me dig.

Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away.1 Corinthians 13:8 NKJV

The church of Corinth was a church in trouble in the first epistle. There was a lack of discipline, unity, and fairness. But people were still exercising the gifts often to the detriment of order in the worship service. Paul is bringing the letter to a head, and diagnoses the problem as a heart problem. This statement sticks out in the 13th chapter. It is quoted by many conservative scholars to support a change of momentum in the church where gifts would no longer be employed as a sign to the unbeliever. The verb tense is a future tense. But, I am asking someone who believes that this is not the case to help me understand what is this verse saying if this is not what it is communicating. If this is what it is saying is it a temporary stop of the miraculous or permanent one?

Hey David,

In response to your original question, please let me first tell you where I am coming from. I believe that the bible is the pure word of God, has been kept down through the ages(God said he would preserve his word), I don't believe in speaking the gift of tonuges at common day, I believe that the only way to get to heaven is by accepting Christ, and nothing more, and also that this "Baptism of the Holy Spirit" honestly.. makes no sense to me Can anyone explain it? I know you recieve every bit of the Holy Spirit at salvation(after accepting Christ) and you he never leaves you That being said and done

As for the verse, when the bible says "when that which is perfect is come" the word perfect, if you go back to the Greek word, means "complete" .. the bible was written over a couple thousand(thousand right?) years and by about 40 different authors. WHen the bible is "perfect" (complete) that is when prophecy and tongues were done away with. Those were done away with the early churches. (Sorry if a little short.. it is late at night). How people can claim to "speak in tongues" after the bible states that it was done away with when the Bible(I dont' know about this "Canon" as I don't know much in the way of theology yet) was completed... so... yeah..good night

Crystal