1 Corinthians 13:8, What do we do with this verse?

[David from New Bern]

I always try to understand opposing views. I believe firmly I have no business arguing something as sacred as God's Word, if I don't care about what He cares about. He desire for the reader (every one) to understand and see the correct interpretation. The Scripture are here for our enlightenment. I would like to always approach His Word with a hunger for a deeper understanding. If I am firm in my belief, not by experience or denominational tradition but by the correct exposistion, I want others to see it as well or at least ask the right questions of the text and give the Holy Spirit opportunity to give the correct answer. I believe there is a difference between argument and a digging session. I want someone to help me dig.

Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away.1 Corinthians 13:8 NKJV

The church of Corinth was a church in trouble in the first epistle. There was a lack of discipline, unity, and fairness. But people were still exercising the gifts often to the detriment of order in the worship service. Paul is bringing the letter to a head, and diagnoses the problem as a heart problem. This statement sticks out in the 13th chapter. It is quoted by many conservative scholars to support a change of momentum in the church where gifts would no longer be employed as a sign to the unbeliever. The verb tense is a future tense. But, I am asking someone who believes that this is not the case to help me understand what is this verse saying if this is not what it is communicating. If this is what it is saying is it a temporary stop of the miraculous or permanent one?

Hey David,

In response to your original question, please let me first tell you where I am coming from. I believe that the bible is the pure word of God, has been kept down through the ages(God said he would preserve his word), I don't believe in speaking the gift of tonuges at common day, I believe that the only way to get to heaven is by accepting Christ, and nothing more, and also that this "Baptism of the Holy Spirit" honestly.. makes no sense to me Can anyone explain it? I know you recieve every bit of the Holy Spirit at salvation(after accepting Christ) and you he never leaves you That being said and done

As for the verse, when the bible says "when that which is perfect is come" the word perfect, if you go back to the Greek word, means "complete" .. the bible was written over a couple thousand(thousand right?) years and by about 40 different authors. WHen the bible is "perfect" (complete) that is when prophecy and tongues were done away with. Those were done away with the early churches. (Sorry if a little short.. it is late at night). How people can claim to "speak in tongues" after the bible states that it was done away with when the Bible(I dont' know about this "Canon" as I don't know much in the way of theology yet) was completed... so... yeah..good night

Crystal

Thanks Crystal...you know more than you think...Butero represents a group of thought that believes that the "Baptism of the Holy Spirit" is a second or additional work or act of grace after salvation. They do not understand the book of Acts as a transistion phase in the church age.

[David from New Bern]

Butero, I see you were up talking to yourself last night on this one. Looks like you can run a thread all by yourself, even if you have to bring an old argument up and work it out aloud. I have never met anyone who was a serious student of the Word, who didn't understand that Acts was the birth of the church and a transistion into what it would become. There had to be the acceptance of Jesus as the promised Messiah, the dismissal of false ideas of what the Messiah would accomplish. The embracing of the ministry of the Holy Spirit. They had to grapple with a new understanding of the OT in light of the words of Jesus. The Jews were still strongly committed to ancient tradition, do we continue sacrifices, synagogue, and cleansing ritual? And the big one, How do we adopt uncircumcised Gentiles under the banner of this new way? These huge gaps of understanding and the impending persecution just around the corner, meant the need for supernatural evangelism and visions that corrected ignorance. Certainly in the absence of the NT Canon the infant church was aided by the miraculous.

If you will not bring up obsolete, educated, Independent Baptist preachers who wrote a book and disagreed with you, I promise not to bring up misguided, dis-fellowshipped Pentecostal Ministers who start a cult in South America. I have no more in common with him than you do with Jim Jones. Keep it real brother and keep it focused on issues and not your distaste for poor students and broad labels that don't match up to the facts of this thread.

[EricH]

This is beginning to border on misbehavior. Would all sides of the issue please keep it civil

[vitality22004]

David, can I ask the question that Paul asked? Have you received the Holy Spirit since you believed? I believe that the discussion has focused largely on the logos letter of the Word especially in Paul's letter to the Corinthian church, which we agree was written to bring a much-needed order of worship into a church in a cosmopolitan city, where people brought their traditions and cultural expressions into the church resulting in a certain degree of confusion. The verse you quoted David, was Paul's attempt in bringing balance to the issue of the gifts of the spirit. His guideline for their operation was that gifts in isolation without love is meaningless. He ties this up in his letter to the Galatian church where he expounds on the fruit of the Spirit. I agree that there has been an overemphasis on tongues and interpretation of tongues but the truth is that even the writer of the book of Romans talks about the language of the Spirit especially in the context of prayer. Rather than get into a theological debate about the letter of the Word, why not consider the truth that Jesus said that I go away and will send you the Spirit of Truth who will lead you into all things....There is one coming who will baptise you not in water but in the Spirit and fire....these gifts that are being so easily dismissed come from the bearer of them, the Holy Spirit and it is the experience of knowing Him that is far more important than speaking in tongues. He inspired the Word of Truth and the evidence of His presence in a life surrendered to Jesus, is the fruit of the spirit: love, joy, peace.... There might be a case for the fact that the experience can be counterfeited, that emotionalism is possible, but the true genuine baptism and many infillings of the Holy Spirit are as real an experience as the salvation one is. The fact that it happened in the Book of Acts and to Jew and Gentile was just the beginning. We are the generation of the greater works! Why do we think that we can do without this experience and the power it brings, with the prophetic and revelation and faith gifts? When one considers all the truth that was lost to the church during the Dark Ages, and the restoration through various moves of God, when truth was restored piece by piece to the church beginning with Martin Luther's 'The just shall live by faith, to the restoration of water baptism and the experience of Pentecost, you can see that every experience of the book of Acts church is relevant to the church today and MORE!

[David from New Bern]

This is beginning to border on misbehavior. Would all sides of the issue please keep it civil

Hey EricH, David is my friend. I didn't mean anything hateful by what I wrote, nor did I take what he wrote in a bad way. I think we just both have a sarcastic nature, and often things come across worse than they seem.

If it did come across as misconduct, I apologize.

Butero, is my friend and I don't offend easily anyway, and sometimes statements that could be misinterpreted as curt by others are just our attempts to keep the conversation interesting and honest. However, I do appreciate Eric's concern for keeping the thread free of real conflict. I would rather not participate than risk Butero's testimony or mine or the reputation of the forum. I echo my friend, I do apologize if we were not wise in our banter. I'm going to find out where Butero lives at and I am going to drive up to his house one day and drag him out in the yard and tie him up and force him to read the book of Acts from an NIV Bible with a dress on.

[David from New Bern]

David, can I ask the question that Paul asked? Have you received the Holy Spirit since you believed? I believe that the discussion has focused largely on the logos letter of the Word especially in Paul's letter to the Corinthian church, which we agree was written to bring a much-needed order of worship into a church in a cosmopolitan city, where people brought their traditions and cultural expressions into the church resulting in a certain degree of confusion. The verse you quoted David, was Paul's attempt in bringing balance to the issue of the gifts of the spirit. His guideline for their operation was that gifts in isolation without love is meaningless. He ties this up in his letter to the Galatian church where he expounds on the fruit of the Spirit. I agree that there has been an overemphasis on tongues and interpretation of tongues but the truth is that even the writer of the book of Romans talks about the language of the Spirit especially in the context of prayer. Rather than get into a theological debate about the letter of the Word, why not consider the truth that Jesus said that I go away and will send you the Spirit of Truth who will lead you into all things....There is one coming who will baptise you not in water but in the Spirit and fire....these gifts that are being so easily dismissed come from the bearer of them, the Holy Spirit and it is the experience of knowing Him that is far more important than speaking in tongues. He inspired the Word of Truth and the evidence of His presence in a life surrendered to Jesus, is the fruit of the spirit: love, joy, peace.... There might be a case for the fact that the experience can be counterfeited, that emotionalism is possible, but the true genuine baptism and many infillings of the Holy Spirit are as real an experience as the salvation one is. The fact that it happened in the Book of Acts and to Jew and Gentile was just the beginning. We are the generation of the greater works! Why do we think that we can do without this experience and the power it brings, with the prophetic and revelation and faith gifts? When one considers all the truth that was lost to the church during the Dark Ages, and the restoration through various moves of God, when truth was restored piece by piece to the church beginning with Martin Luther's 'The just shall live by faith, to the restoration of water baptism and the experience of Pentecost, you can see that every experience of the book of Acts church is relevant to the church today and MORE!

I have received the Spirit it happened at my new birth. It was the Holy Spirit who drew me and now teaches me, convicts me, reminds me, inspires me, encourages me, fills me with compassion, assigns me to tasks, empowers me, gives me discernment, and annoints me... among many other things... You may have heard this before, but it is my conviction that there is one baptism and many fillings. There are moments of filling that there is no explanantion other than my submission (or lack of quenching the Spirit) has allowed the Spirit to control me and operate through me and the results are supernatural. I like a lot of the things you said in your post and I will not try to read too much between the lines, so I resorted to clearly explaining my experience and now it is up to you to point out agreement or which point we are not in agreement.

[EricH]

Thanks guys for your great attitudes. I appreciate it very much

[WayneB]

GREAT idea David!

I'd like to see Butero with a dress on.

Make sure you get video. Okay?

[vitality22004]

David it's great that you have that kind of relationship with the Holy Spirit and i agree with you that the way it should happen is that when you get saved, you get the whole package. I think when the truth of Pentecost was being given back to the church, there was a lot of emphasis on the whole baptism being a separate experience by the laying on of hands and the evidence being the speaking with other tongues and the balance may have become skewed. I also know that countless Christians have got themselves into such a place of condemnation about not receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit as taught by the church, and there is often frustration, copying in desperation, a feeling of not being good enough etc which was never the intention of God. I also know many tongue-talking people who did not have a genuine encounter with Him because there was never any resultant change in them. I, myself received the baptism, during worship one Sunday, very spontaneously. I like what you said about the many fillings cos that has been my experience, that it is a journey with Him, more of Him,less of you as you get to know Him. For me, the key is inviting the Holy Spirit into your life, gifts, fruit and all, respecting your body as His temple, developing an awareness of His presence moment by moment, cultivating a desire to know Him more, by recognising and understanding Him....the gifts are not Him, they are just gifts...and without Him and the agape love He sheds abroad in your heart, they are just noisy!!!

[vitality22004]

Butero,, thanx for clarifying that....although I do know many Baptists who speak in tongues....i don't think that the experience was meant to be confined to any denomination but I can see how with the Baptist church being established when the truth of water baptism was restored to the church, it was difficult to embrace the next move...with the restoration of Pentecost...there have been many more moves since then, lots of change....progressive revelation....don't you just love it when God upsets our applecarts?? My Pastor was firmly convinced that man would never land on the moon and preached vehemently against it in the 60's....and of course when man did land on the moon, he had to shift his viewpoint..but there are still those who think it was a scientific conspiracy and it never happened! So....i guess we have to be open in this walk with God so that He can lead us the way He wants to...if we close ourselves to the possibility of new revelation of old firmly-held beliefs, we remain the same....and that's our loss...