Guest NewPilgrim Posted May 15, 2006 Share Posted May 15, 2006 Referring to Frogiven1's citation of James "faith without works is dead, likewise works withouty faith are dead" , the premise indeed is quite simple: one can proclaim to have faith, but faith produces good works. If one claims to have faith but there is no evidence of it, then they dont have faith. likewise we can work for God, obey his commandments, evangelise etc... but if we do it without belief it will be of no benefit to us because only belief in Jesus can save: Hbr 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them [israel]: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard [it]. 3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrismarc Posted May 15, 2006 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 136 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 6 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/06/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/20/1950 Author Share Posted May 15, 2006 chrismarc, This seems disingenuios on your part and you are looking for only a good debate and have no concern really for those who are facing such crisis within the family of G-d. OC How do you know what i'm looking for?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrismarc Posted May 15, 2006 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 136 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 6 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/06/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/20/1950 Author Share Posted May 15, 2006 godrulz said, This is a practical, pastoral question, with doctrinal implications. Believers (saved) go to heaven. Unbelievers go to hell/lake of fire. If a genuine Christian kills themselves due to mental instability or despair, they have not necessarily renounced Christ and His finished work. So if one still believes in their Savior Jesus, they still go to Heaven? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Openly Curious Posted May 15, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 55 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,568 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 770 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/18/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted May 15, 2006 chrismarc, This seems disingenuios on your part and you are looking for only a good debate and have no concern really for those who are facing such crisis within the family of G-d. OC How do you know what i'm looking for?! Hello chrismarc By what you are asking. If you don't care enough for them while they are alive what's the point in knowing about their afterlife except for a debate on the issue. OC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elkieDannsa' Air An Drochaid Posted May 15, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 59 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,390 Content Per Day: 0.21 Reputation: 9 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/24/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted May 15, 2006 The Scriptures say we are not to discuss who went to hell and who went to heaven, for this is GOds Alone. Maybe some one remembers the scripture, as I don't at this moment. The thing is that the times when people need to draw closest to Christ immediately, too often they turn away instead. Don't let your feelings run your life. ALWAYS draw to Christ FIRST. The better feelings will come later. God bless, elkie Amen Elkie ROM 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above 7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) Love Suzana Again AMEN. Yes, Suzana, This is the Scripture I was speaking of. This Scripture shows that we are to resepct Christ enough not to try to hink for HIm and to respect and love those who have gone to be in Gods Righteous Judgement. Also, for believers, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Some are in heaven as we are to console one another with this until Christ returns. This is biblical teaching about when our brethren pass from here. I won't respond to this as argurement with anyone. OC, I do miss and love and think of my friends and family who have gone on, everyday, until I see them again. I thank God for loving His Beloved church the way HE does and for helping me to love others as myself in His Holy Spirit living in me. I am also thinking of you and praying for you often. In My prayers, elkie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
>> Hannah << Posted May 15, 2006 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 28 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 164 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/09/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/06/1987 Share Posted May 15, 2006 i want to know why you concern yourself with such things??? why do you wish to know where a saved person who kills themself goes? thats what i want to know! are you suicidal and debating it but scared of what will happen to you!!! from personal experience, when i have been on the brink of suicide and have many times attempted the last thing i was bothered about was where i was going, all i was bothered about was getting very far away from the feelings, life and thoughts i was having... and even since ive been saved ive been suicidal... yet still where i was going if i suceeded in killing myself didnt bother me at all when a person is in a state of being suicidal, trying to scare them with, well you'll go to hell if you do, will have no effect at all. there response is likely to be, "Hell!! doubting hell can be much worse than what im feeling" it really frustrates me that this topic keeps coming up over and over again.... what happens if a christian comes on the boards and actually is suicidal and gets the impression from this thread and others that they will still go to heaven if they kill themselves... Not one of you has any right at all to say whether or not they will.... because you dont know... god decides... drop the subject... its not important dont question things that you know you will never get a satifactory clear answer for... just have FAITH that god is going to make the right decision Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwordFish Posted May 15, 2006 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 104 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/25/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted May 15, 2006 I think it is a terrible thing for someone to be in that much pain in life to where they want to choose death as an option. The pain has to be at a depth I can even conceive of having nor experienced. I know I have had hurts in life but not to the point of harming myself. I read all the time and see on the news some of the awful things people have been and are going through from others that I myself couldn't even comprehend what it would be like to be in those situations myself. I think even if one could know for a certainty they would go to heaven when they die that it would make a difference within their mind as far as carrying it through. It just seems like it would be easier to get released from the hurt. But I don't know just going on what seems logical in my mind. I do know that the ones in this place have to have a depth of pain beyong anything I've had to deal with in life. Others I think don't see this in those who have suicidal thoughts. To have something so awful to come into their life that makes them no longer want to live has to be a terrible thing that dominants their mind in a bad way. In that way it seems to be mental harm the person may be experiencing during those times. All I can say is we need to pray for those in this state and be there should they need us maybe God can use us somehow to dimenish the pain they are in. Sometimes talking and a good listening ear can work miracles within itself. swordfish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrismarc Posted May 15, 2006 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 136 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 6 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/06/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/20/1950 Author Share Posted May 15, 2006 Hannah said, what happens if a christian comes on the boards and actually is suicidal and gets the impression from this thread and others that they will still go to heaven if they kill themselves...Not one of you has any right at all to say whether or not they will.... Exactly. Even those who believe in OSAS are not sure; which means OSAS is just an allusion; either your beliefs are true or not. drop the subject... its not important Every soul is important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suzanagimpel Posted May 15, 2006 Group: Members Followers: 1 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 52 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/24/1970 Share Posted May 15, 2006 The answer is on post 17 The Scriptures say we are not to discuss who went to hell and who went to heaven, for this is GOds Alone. Maybe some one remembers the scripture, as I don't at this moment. OC i think you are referring to Romans chapter 14 why do you think folks are so concerned after their already dead instead of before. it just doesn't make any sense to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
>> Hannah << Posted May 15, 2006 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 28 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 164 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/09/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/06/1987 Share Posted May 15, 2006 Hannah said, what happens if a christian comes on the boards and actually is suicidal and gets the impression from this thread and others that they will still go to heaven if they kill themselves...Not one of you has any right at all to say whether or not they will.... Exactly. Even those who believe in OSAS are not sure; which means OSAS is just an allusion; either your beliefs are true or not. Hannah said, drop the subject... its not important Every soul is important. I dont care who believes in OSAS and who doesnt believe in OSAS.......... still none of you have any right at all to say whether or not they will or will not go to heaven... and again this debate is pointless.... Also did i say that every soul isnt important?? NO i said the subject isnt important... i am glad you have stated that every soul is important... maybe now you have realised this you can stop polutting the weak in spirit and esteem minds with posts concerning such things as suicide, where only god knows the true answer to your question... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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