Electric Angel Posted May 30, 2006 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 45 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/26/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted May 30, 2006 I sure don't consider myself a patriot. I don't even like standing for the national anthem, which contains the line "God keep our land glorious and free." In Canada, you're allowed to murder babies and same-sex marriage is perfectly acceptable. This country isn't glorious and I'm not going to insult God by asking Him, in song, to keep it that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iryssa Posted May 30, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 117 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 3,860 Content Per Day: 0.56 Reputation: 9 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/10/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/13/1984 Share Posted May 30, 2006 So why not be homeless? And this relates how? I fail to see how this progresses the conversation . . . makes sense to me... He's saying there's no more point in him becoming Amish than there is in becoming homeless...both would achieve the end of not feeling pressure to vote or to be involved in political matters, but don't you think a person needs a better reason than that to do either? I sure as heck do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iryssa Posted May 30, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 117 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 3,860 Content Per Day: 0.56 Reputation: 9 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/10/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/13/1984 Share Posted May 30, 2006 I sure don't consider myself a patriot. I don't even like standing for the national anthem, which contains the line "God keep our land glorious and free." In Canada, you're allowed to murder babies and same-sex marriage is perfectly acceptable. This country isn't glorious and I'm not going to insult God by asking Him, in song, to keep it that way. Move to Alberta...neither of those things are perfectly acceptable over here And anyway...I don't think the writer of the song had the same idea of glorious as you're thinking... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Electric Angel Posted May 30, 2006 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 45 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/26/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted May 30, 2006 I sure don't consider myself a patriot. I don't even like standing for the national anthem, which contains the line "God keep our land glorious and free." In Canada, you're allowed to murder babies and same-sex marriage is perfectly acceptable. This country isn't glorious and I'm not going to insult God by asking Him, in song, to keep it that way. Move to Alberta...neither of those things are perfectly acceptable over here And anyway...I don't think the writer of the song had the same idea of glorious as you're thinking... I wish I could move back to Alberta, my home province. Stuck in Ontario now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David from New Bern Posted May 30, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 75 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 527 Content Per Day: 0.08 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/21/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/03/1964 Author Share Posted May 30, 2006 What is the subject of this thread?...We seem to have digressed... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kabowd Posted May 30, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 112 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 3,489 Content Per Day: 0.48 Reputation: 13 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/28/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted May 30, 2006 thats an easy question... no! John 17:15-16 clerly states that if we are to be like God or Jesus, we are to be like him and become and remain no part of the world... sharing in none of the worlds affairs... You may want to read those verses again. In verse 15, Jesus even states that His prayer is not that we would be removed from this world, but that we would be protected from the evil one who influences it. Using these verses to justify complacency with the world's affairs is a tragic misapplication. For one, Jesus was quite concerned with the affairs of the world...so much so that He left the glory of heaven to intervene in them. When He says He's not "of the world", He isn't speaking ontologically, He's speaking ethically/morally. there is scripture supporting God being against patriotism... John 17:15-16 Jesus says they (his followers) are no part of the world just as I am no part of the world. Jesus as well as Paul spoke on remaining in subjection to secular authority because for now God allows man to govern the world but Jesus said be no part of it. there are more scriptures to support this as well... Again, you misapply the same verses. In fact, your reference to Paul (I think you're referring to Romans 13?), contradicts your own argument. Paul (as well as Christ) taught obedience to government authority. God designed order and established community leadership and authority from the very beginning. Likewise, He has always taken disobedience to authority very seriously. While loyalty to one's country (or anything) should never supercede one's loyalty to God, they can co-exist. Suggesting that believers should be disloyal to their country and it's governing authorities is not biblical. One should only disobey human leaders when their commands directly conflict with God's commands. Not aligning ourselves with the world is a viable argument, because there are many things that democracy ask us to accept that our faith will not accept. But I beleive the stronger argument about patriotism is citizenship. Am I a citizen of this world? These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. For those who say such things declare plainly that they seek a homeland. And truly if they had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return. But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them. Hebrews 11:13-16 NKJV Is this worth discussing? The problem is, the reference to having "heavenly" homeland does not mean our citizenship is in heaven. Heaven is not our home. Revelation 21 makes it clear that the place Jesus is preparing for us is the New Earth. 1 Peter 3:13 tells us what we're looking forward to is the new heaven and the new earth. The reason we are "pilgrims" in this life, as Randy Alcorn says, is not because our home will never be on Earth...but because our eternal home is not currently on Earth. The heros mentioned in Hebrews longed for paradise, just like believers do now...because we were created for Eden, for perfection. And since the time of the fall, our current "home" [earth] has been damaged and tainted by sin. We long for the time when God restores everything to it's original purpose; not for the time when we go to be with God, but when He returns to be with us. it is very important to note through all of this that people being part of taking sides, having their input on government or worldly affairs is nothing new going back even into Jesus' day. there is no account of Jesus or any of his followers taking part in any of the government or affairs of the world. it is made very clear all over the bible that the ruler of the world (including but not limited to governments of the world) is satan so dealing in any of the worlds affairs is a very bad idea... Everything about God's character is wrapped up in His identity to restore and redeem, to make right what is wrong. As followers of Christ, our identity is linked to His cause of bringing His Kingdom to earth, as it already is in Heaven. We are to redeem culture, not ignore it. Just because satan has temporary influence on the world does not mean we surrender and let him have free reign. The implication of your belief is that we are simply "passing through" this life so we should have no care whatsoever for things of the "world" and should simply white-knuckle it until we get to heaven. Besides it's inherently gnostic philosophy, it makes no sense. If that's the case, why are we here? Why didn't God remove us from this earth upon salvation? You can say that we shouldn't be a part of this world all you like, but the fact remains, God did care about the affairs of the world (and still does). In fact, He loved it. So much so, He became a part of it in order to redeem it. As His children, how can you assert that we are to do anything less? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kabowd Posted May 30, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 112 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 3,489 Content Per Day: 0.48 Reputation: 13 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/28/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted May 30, 2006 When Paul says that we are not citizens of this world, he is not calling for us to seperate from the political world or even from the literal world. He is, instead, refering to our obligation to redeem culture. We are not to fall into the political traps or patriotic ferver if it contradicts what the Bible would have us to do. An example of this would be a German in the late 1930's. Patriotism over such a government would contradict Biblical values. Thus, our obligation to Christ is always to come before our obligation to our country. If you live in a nation where the government, culture, and political make up consistently goes against Christ, then being a patriot would probably not be the best thing. Being a patriot in America, however, is not always bad. It means you love your nation enough to be willing to change it. I think it is okay to love your nation, because out of love comes a desire for positive change. If I am indifferent towards America, then what do I care when it begins to crumble? If I take this attitude, then how am I in anyway effective for the Kingdom of God? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hebrews_beauty Posted May 30, 2006 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 0 Topic Count: 11 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 232 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/14/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted May 30, 2006 I find this whole hate your country because you are not of this world baffling.. I cannot comprehend it.. I praise God for the privilege of being an American.. If I lived in Communist China and I was a Christian I would probably Praise God for my country of China and pray for her... From the books I have read of folks persecuted by their governments they love their country but not the way the government is run.. I Pray for and love where God has planted me on this earth while I am walking through it... I love American and will vote and sign petitions to congressmen and do what I can to keep her from sliding down the slope of amorality... if she falls completely I will still thank God for her and pray for her because it is where God has me.. And I believe it is the Christian thing to do... 1Ti 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 1Ti 2:2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. Col 3:22 Servants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh; not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but in singleness of heart, fearing God: Col 3:23 And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men;Col 3:24 Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ. Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Rom 13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. Rom 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: Rom 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. Rom 13:5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. Rom 13:6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing. Rom 13:7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlindSeeker Posted May 31, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 68 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,031 Content Per Day: 0.52 Reputation: 425 Days Won: 5 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted May 31, 2006 So why not be homeless? And this relates how? I fail to see how this progresses the conversation . . . makes sense to me... He's saying there's no more point in him becoming Amish than there is in becoming homeless...both would achieve the end of not feeling pressure to vote or to be involved in political matters, but don't you think a person needs a better reason than that to do either? I sure as heck do. I not the one making the statement. Should a Christian feel "pressure to vote or to be involved in political matters?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apothanein kerdos Posted May 31, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 331 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 8,713 Content Per Day: 1.21 Reputation: 21 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/28/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted May 31, 2006 So why not be homeless? And this relates how? I fail to see how this progresses the conversation . . . makes sense to me... He's saying there's no more point in him becoming Amish than there is in becoming homeless...both would achieve the end of not feeling pressure to vote or to be involved in political matters, but don't you think a person needs a better reason than that to do either? I sure as heck do. I not the one making the statement. Should a Christian feel "pressure to vote or to be involved in political matters?" Yes. We are called to redeem culture. Part of our culture, whether we like it or not, is in the political process. Though politics cannot change a culture, a culture has a much more difficult time obtaining change if the politics are decidedly anti-God. I think every Christian would do much better with this issue if he/she studied Western Europe from about 1500 to present day. You'll see that the downfall of Christianity in Western Europe began to take place in the political spectrum and slowly moved to the colleges, the schools, and then the masses....when Christians remove themselves from any aspect of influence in society, be it educational, political, or common, then Christianity in that nation begins to die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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