apothanein kerdos Posted May 31, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 331 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 8,713 Content Per Day: 1.21 Reputation: 21 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/28/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted May 31, 2006 Mate, I hope this does not seem rude, but I think you might be trusting in a secularized view of history. I only say this because what you said really runs contrary to true Americna history. I totally disagree; you cannot effectively challenge government if you are a part of it, not really. Christian politicians in the US did not end slavery nor were they the leaders of the civil rights movement in the 20th century. Both of these movements were sparked, stoked and started by Christian groups OUTSIDE of government, doing what they needed to do to challenge the force of the status quo, to stand as witness against the law at that time. The abolitionist movement was a fundamentalist Christian movement started far from government. Now they did influence government, which was their role. The civil rights movement, led by African American Christians did the same thing, also outside of government. What elected government office did Martin Luther King hold? Neither was part of government. I respect Christians who choose to be separate from both the government and this world; I also respect Christians who are called to serve in government roles. The only truth in this is about the Civil Rights movement. However, by this time, the split between "Church" and "State" had been made, therefore, most Church leaders had decided that politics was "secular" and therefore avoided it. However, concerning slavery, mate, study your history. Abraham Lincoln joined politics because he was an abolitionist. The republican party was a one issue party at one point. The abolitionist movement that you seem to think was far from the political spectrum ran canidates for local and national elections from the 1820's until Lincoln was elected. In fact, the Republican party was originally created by the abolitionist groups. Likewise, William Wilberforce, who was a politician in England, is the one who ended slavery for the British Empire because he was a part of the government. Your ideas might work on paper, but in practice I can point to example after example that consistently provides the opposite point of view. Now I am not calling for a "Christian Party" nor am I saying that Christians having power is somehow a good thing. What I am saying though is that we need to reach culture at all levels of society, including politics. If we use proper history and Biblical interpretation, I have a hard time seeing how this can be argued against. But even after the Reformation, Europe continued to sanction Churches. The Christian Church was largely destroyed in Europe because it simply became and was another part of government. It was co-opted into being totally compromised by being just another government entity. Consider that Prince Charles is today the official Head and leader of the Church of England. The Church of England is the "official" Church of that nation and is sanctioned by their government, and guess what, nobody goes. Prince Charles has said he does not even really believes in Christ, you see where this Church State mix takes us, into hypocrisy and death for the Church. I don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerioke Posted May 31, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 97 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 5,850 Content Per Day: 0.84 Reputation: 128 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/19/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/11/1911 Share Posted May 31, 2006 Ok, to those of you Christians who feel you should have no involvement in government.... voting standing up for Christian values in society...etc why do you think you can complain about what the government is or is not doing.. seems to me that only those who are involved have that right .... You should be completely and totally emotionally neutral to what the government does... If I go to a restaurant and tell them "whatever" they have to offer I cannot complain about what I am brought to eat... I don't know if you've noticed, but the government has a tendancy to do whatever it pleases, regardless of what the people think. When you vote, you are essentially voting for the lesser of two evils. Anyone who chooses not to vote out of protest has a right to complain about the corrupt power that influences our lives because the little people get screwed no matter who gets elected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlindSeeker Posted May 31, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 68 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,031 Content Per Day: 0.52 Reputation: 425 Days Won: 5 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted May 31, 2006 . . . Christianity can die within a certain culture. Now it can be "resurrected," but it can suffer a death, we have seen this time and unfortunate time again. I would disagree . . . 1Ki 19:18 Yet I have left me seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him.Even when the man of God thinks he is all alone he is not . . . God maintains His remnant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
traveller Posted May 31, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 827 Topics Per Day: 0.10 Content Count: 12,101 Content Per Day: 1.50 Reputation: 249 Days Won: 3 Joined: 04/01/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted May 31, 2006 Yes. We are called to redeem culture. Part of our culture, whether we like it or not, is in the political process. Though politics cannot change a culture, a culture has a much more difficult time obtaining change if the politics are decidedly anti-God. I think every Christian would do much better with this issue if he/she studied Western Europe from about 1500 to present day. You'll see that the downfall of Christianity in Western Europe began to take place in the political spectrum and slowly moved to the colleges, the schools, and then the masses....when Christians remove themselves from any aspect of influence in society, be it educational, political, or common, then Christianity in that nation begins to die. Or, can it be that as Christianity dies, they begin to remove themselves from the educational, political, etc? Christianity cannot die. Rather due to the deterioration of society it ignores the redemption that Christ secured and they "wax worse and worse." (Hey sweet sister ) Christianity can die within a certain culture. Now it can be "resurrected," but it can suffer a death, we have seen this time and unfortunate time again. As for Travellar's question, I really don't know. It really is a question of "which came first, the death that lead to a lower society, or a lower society that lead to a death." I happen to believe that the problem began within Christianity and manifested itself when Christians began to remove themselves from politics, education, and social matters. Does that make sense or did I completely miss what you were saying? Right - what I was trying to say is this: are the problems in society a symptom or the illness? It is my opinion that it's a symptom of the spiritual health of the nation. When a nation turns from God, ignores His laws, it begins to die from within. That's what I meant when I said that about Christianity dying. I agree with Blindseeker, that it can't die. But, less and less can turn to God, reducing the whole. Did I make sense? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlindSeeker Posted May 31, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 68 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,031 Content Per Day: 0.52 Reputation: 425 Days Won: 5 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted May 31, 2006 It's clear to me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apothanein kerdos Posted May 31, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 331 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 8,713 Content Per Day: 1.21 Reputation: 21 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/28/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted May 31, 2006 . . . Christianity can die within a certain culture. Now it can be "resurrected," but it can suffer a death, we have seen this time and unfortunate time again. I would disagree . . . 1Ki 19:18 Yet I have left me seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him. Even when the man of God thinks he is all alone he is not . . . God maintains His remnant. The problem is, that passage of scripture isn't meant for us. It was meant for a very specific time and a very specific prophecy. We can try and spiritualize history, but the truth is, Christianity HAS died. Now I hope I'm not comming across mean, because that's not my intention. I'm just very passionate about this issue, and saddened by it. Look to China in the 8th century. There was a church in every single town. By the time the West finally made it to China many years later, they could find only but a handful of Chinese who remembered the Gospel story...and by that time it had been distorted with age. Within just a few hundred years China went from having a huge Christian population to having four or five people who understood the Gospel. Yes, they weren't alone...but is that anyway to affect the culture? No, it's not. Western Christianity is going the same way. To me, when we look to the history on this, it's not really a matter of discussion. It has been proven to have occured in the past. I encourage you to look up some of the writings of Schaeffer, specifically "Death in the City" where he deals with this issue very extensively. Again, not trying to seem rude, it's just an issue that is close to my heart and something that, in my mind, has been historically proven. Right - what I was trying to say is this: are the problems in society a symptom or the illness? It is my opinion that it's a symptom of the spiritual health of the nation. When a nation turns from God, ignores His laws, it begins to die from within. That's what I meant when I said that about Christianity dying. I agree with Blindseeker, that it can't die. But, less and less can turn to God, reducing the whole. The problems are most certainly symptoms of a greater illness. Even within the Church. The problems always stem from one thing and one thing alone; people unwilling to humble themselves before God and His purpose. That is always the illness. THe problem is, sometimes we have to fight the symptoms AND the illness. I equate it to HIV/AIDS. We're never going to find a cure for rebellion against God in this lifetime, but we can help to slow down the symptoms or we can treat the symptoms while trying to treat the main illness as well. The problem is, Christians either focus all their energy on the symptoms and ignore the illness (such as passing a law against homosexuality and not trying to bring homosexuals to Christ) or we completely ignore the symptoms and try to cure the incurable. You're right, Christianity cannot die worldwide, but it can "die" within a culture. Maybe a better word would be "culturally ineffective" or "worthless" instead of "die." Bad word choice on my part Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlindSeeker Posted June 1, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 68 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,031 Content Per Day: 0.52 Reputation: 425 Days Won: 5 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted June 1, 2006 The problem is, that passage of scripture isn't meant for us. It was meant for a very specific time and a very specific prophecy. We can try and spiritualize history . . . Actually, every passage of scripture is meant for us and there was no spiritualizing of history. The passage is clearly showing how God corrected Elijah on his mistaken perception of the condition of the body of believers in his day. Not only were there more believers than he thought, they were spiritually healthier than he thought as well. Perhaps you are as mistaken as Eijah was . . . . . . You're right, Christianity cannot die worldwide, but it can "die" within a culture. Maybe a better word would be "culturally ineffective" or "worthless" instead of "die." Bad word choice on my part When pure religion (which developed into Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apothanein kerdos Posted June 1, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 331 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 8,713 Content Per Day: 1.21 Reputation: 21 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/28/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted June 1, 2006 Actually, every passage of scripture is meant for us and there was no spiritualizing of history. The passage is clearly showing how God corrected Elijah on his mistaken perception of the condition of the body of believers in his day. Not only were there more believers than he thought, they were spiritually healthier than he thought as well. Perhaps you are as mistaken as Eijah was . . . Not all scripture is meant for us. I don't think God intends for me to take my only son up to a mountain and sacrifice him or to have sexual relations with my daughter in law under the premise she is a prostitute (like Judah did with Tamar). Some of it is merely historical information given to us so we understand the context of what is occuring. It is the same with Elijah. This is not a prescriptive text, it is descriptive. Descriptive texts, though helpful, are no place to start a doctrine (I believe EricH has posted about this elswhere). Now, you are correct that I could be mistaken, however, when we look to the fruits of Christianity, I just don't see how I am. Likewise, we have the benefit in looking back in history to see that I am not mistaken; Christianity literally died out in certain areas of the world. I fully admit I could be mistaken about our modern times, but I do not believe I am mistaken when I say that it could happen here. When pure religion (which developed into Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tah Posted June 1, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 105 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 3,131 Content Per Day: 0.45 Reputation: 126 Days Won: 1 Joined: 05/12/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted June 1, 2006 Ok, to those of you Christians who feel you should have no involvement in government.... voting standing up for Christian values in society...etc why do you think you can complain about what the government is or is not doing.. seems to me that only those who are involved have that right .... You should be completely and totally emotionally neutral to what the government does... If I go to a restaurant and tell them "whatever" they have to offer I cannot complain about what I am brought to eat... I don't know if you've noticed, but the government has a tendency to do whatever it pleases, regardless of what the people think. When you vote, you are essentially voting for the lesser of two evils. Anyone who chooses not to vote out of protest has a right to complain about the corrupt power that influences our lives because the little people get screwed no matter who gets elected. I find not voting out of protest like holding my breath... I turn blue and can only blame myself... If I vote as you say for the "lesser of two evils" then I can make my voice know that I do not like the way they are doing things and get behind all those who are standing up to the particular position the political figure is taking... and I fast and pray about who to vote for ... and I believe God is very involved in how the government is running... He sets up and He brings down... I pray and do the best I know how in this time we live in... I am here , I am an American, I am part of this country God has allowed me to be birthed in.. I have a responsibility to my children to do what I can that their future may be the best it can be in this nation of ours... God Bless America and bring her to her knees and cause her to call upon Your Name and be turned from her sinful ways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thechild Posted June 1, 2006 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 195 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/22/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted June 1, 2006 2 Corinthians 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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