thechild Posted May 30, 2006 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 195 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/22/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted May 30, 2006 sin is a tricky subject. if WE sin, it is because it is in our nature, but if others sin, it is somehow a choice they have made and they bear that responsibility. i do not believe it can be both ways. Isaiah 5:13 Therefore my people are gone into captivity, because they have no knowledge: and their honourable men are famished, and their multitude dried up with thirst. Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children. addiction is neither a sin nor an illness. it is a symptom of a greater problem. it has been said that as above, so below. do believe this to be fact as well. for the ill body has not much with which to serve and the spiritually deprived will surely fall into illness and death eventually. most people who persue a substance to the point of abuse are looking for something they cant find anywhere else. their drug of choice affords them relief when nothing else they know of can. they are trapped as surely as a man in prison doing life for murder. jesus would heal and say "go and sin no more". what did this mean? what was the sin? to the man by the pool he said: John 5:14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee. to the woman caught in adultery he said: John 8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more. so there is much more at work here than meets the eyes. we can point to the woman caught in adultery and say we know what her sin was, but do we assume too hastily? a sexual addiction, a chemical addiction, they are all the same. there is a real physical need being met. i have found through my studies in natural medicine that the need can be quite real and quite physical in nature. chemical and hormonal imbalances abound in our society due to the sea of chemicals and poor diets. that a person would stumble upon a method of self-medicating is no more of a surprise than that they would maintain that method long enough to become dependent on it. on some level it works or they wouldnt do it. we should follow jesus and not condemn those that are ill in thought or deed, but show and give forgiveness and understanding and address the real needs of the person. regardless of how they got sick, i would heal them, not judge them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jckduboise Posted May 30, 2006 Share Posted May 30, 2006 sin is a tricky subject. if WE sin, it is because it is in our nature, but if others sin, it is somehow a choice they have made and they bear that responsibility. i do not believe it can be both ways. Isaiah 5:13 Therefore my people are gone into captivity, because they have no knowledge: and their honourable men are famished, and their multitude dried up with thirst. Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children. addiction is neither a sin nor an illness. it is a symptom of a greater problem. it has been said that as above, so below. do believe this to be fact as well. for the ill body has not much with which to serve and the spiritually deprived will surely fall into illness and death eventually. most people who persue a substance to the point of abuse are looking for something they cant find anywhere else. their drug of choice affords them relief when nothing else they know of can. they are trapped as surely as a man in prison doing life for murder. jesus would heal and say "go and sin no more". what did this mean? what was the sin? to the man by the pool he said: John 5:14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee. to the woman caught in adultery he said: John 8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more. so there is much more at work here than meets the eyes. we can point to the woman caught in adultery and say we know what her sin was, but do we assume too hastily? a sexual addiction, a chemical addiction, they are all the same. there is a real physical need being met. i have found through my studies in natural medicine that the need can be quite real and quite physical in nature. chemical and hormonal imbalances abound in our society due to the sea of chemicals and poor diets. that a person would stumble upon a method of self-medicating is no more of a surprise than that they would maintain that method long enough to become dependent on it. on some level it works or they wouldnt do it. we should follow jesus and not condemn those that are ill in thought or deed, but show and give forgiveness and understanding and address the real needs of the person. regardless of how they got sick, i would heal them, not judge them. I am one you speak of, I have been healed and I was shown much more mercy and grace than I ever deserved. I know what happens to the addict and what the sickness leads to. I promise you there is no condemnation coming from me at all.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jckduboise Posted May 30, 2006 Share Posted May 30, 2006 to add to what I just said. There is no way possible for those who have not lived it to understand and still those who have there are many who don't understand it yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David from New Bern Posted May 30, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 75 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 527 Content Per Day: 0.08 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/21/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/03/1964 Author Share Posted May 30, 2006 The subjectiveness of this thread sometimes will handicap our discussion. Those who have lived in addiction sometimes forget they have lived in deception. A deception that says you don't have a choice you are hopelessly bound to this behavior. The disease argument matches their reality. I hate to be this blunt, but you have a hard time being objective about what has happened when you are the one that was deceived. Before you dismiss this direct comment. Think biblically and dismiss your interpretation of your experiences, which are one dimensional at best for just a few moments.... If the argument is environmental influence that leads to alcoholism, you've got my support. But a gene or genetic link, is the medical pyschiatric field making up answers that they have no satisfactory proof only theories. But it is a keen way to dismiss responsibility. "He/She can't help it they are sick." Of course, there are plenty of crutches and cliche's that say you don't ever have to submit to permanent change because you are _(DIAGNOSIS). Jesus says we are set free, we don't have to pray for healing of a "behavioral disease." Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God. 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 NKJV Paul is saying dismiss the deception you are a new creature no longer bound. Scripture at the very least says, even if you were sick, you are no longer sick you are whole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Openly Curious Posted May 30, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 55 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,568 Content Per Day: 0.68 Reputation: 770 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/18/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted May 30, 2006 Paul is saying dismiss the deception you are a new creature no longer bound. Scripture at the very least says, even if you were sick, you are no longer sick you are whole. OC This speaking of our sins we commited against Father G-d we no longer are sin sick as we have been washed from past sins. We are in in this way made whole and complete. I want to say some things here but do not quite no how to elaborate on them. If one is fat before salvation experience they will be fat also afterwards that did not change. If you are a blonde when you get saved you still are a blonde that will not change If you are short when you get saved you will still be short afterwards. There are somethings about us when we get saved that does not change because we get saved. I got saved and my sins were washed away from me without a doubt but the sins of others still remain in which i have to deal with and the pain is so very real. For it wasn't washed away I deal and cope the best i can I no longer use drugs and alcohol as a source to dull and stop the pain but the pain didn't stop because I got saved so I speak with this objective in this thread being on the other side of the coin also. I do not think I have a disease or what I suffer in this life is genetic but I suffer mentally just the same and do not feel whole but sick in mind picking up the pieces. This did not change when I got saved but remained afterwards. Do I make any sense in what I am trying to say or add in this discussion. OC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thechild Posted May 30, 2006 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 195 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/22/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted May 30, 2006 (edited) The subjectiveness of this thread sometimes will handicap our discussion. Those who have lived in addiction sometimes forget they have lived in deception. A deception that says you don't have a choice you are hopelessly bound to this behavior. The disease argument matches their reality. I hate to be this blunt, but you have a hard time being objective about what has happened when you are the one that was deceived. Before you dismiss this direct comment. Think biblically and dismiss your interpretation of your experiences, which are one dimensional at best for just a few moments.... If the argument is environmental influence that leads to alcoholism, you've got my support. But a gene or genetic link, is the medical pyschiatric field making up answers that they have no satisfactory proof only theories. But it is a keen way to dismiss responsibility. "He/She can't help it they are sick." Of course, there are plenty of crutches and cliche's that say you don't ever have to submit to permanent change because you are _(DIAGNOSIS). Jesus says we are set free, we don't have to pray for healing of a "behavioral disease." Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God. 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 NKJV Paul is saying dismiss the deception you are a new creature no longer bound. Scripture at the very least says, even if you were sick, you are no longer sick you are whole. so much for the words of jesus. dont you know that everything is subjective? no matter what field of study one is in, no matter how refined the discipline, there are always exceptions to the common facts. and if there is only one exception to a fact, then the fact is no longer a fact, but the most common occurrence. then all things become a matter of faith. things are as you believe they are. believe me, with god all things are possible. it amazes me how someone elses situation can be so crystal clear, but there is so little discernment when it comes to our own lifestyles. you would be amazed at what you are addicted to. you would be amazed at what you would do to mantain your supply. if you dont belive me, follow our lord into the wilderness for forty days and go without food, and company, and all of the other things in your life for that long. just breathing and gathering dew in the morning. imagination doesnt cut it. not in a million years. an experience like that would put you as a subject into proper perspective. Edited May 30, 2006 by thechild Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thechild Posted May 30, 2006 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 195 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/22/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted May 30, 2006 Paul is saying dismiss the deception you are a new creature no longer bound. Scripture at the very least says, even if you were sick, you are no longer sick you are whole. OC This speaking of our sins we commited against Father G-d we no longer are sin sick as we have been washed from past sins. We are in in this way made whole and complete. I want to say some things here but do not quite no how to elaborate on them. If one is fat before salvation experience they will be fat also afterwards that did not change. If you are a blonde when you get saved you still are a blonde that will not change If you are short when you get saved you will still be short afterwards. There are somethings about us when we get saved that does not change because we get saved. I got saved and my sins were washed away from me without a doubt but the sins of others still remain in which i have to deal with and the pain is so very real. For it wasn't washed away I deal and cope the best i can I no longer use drugs and alcohol as a source to dull and stop the pain but the pain didn't stop because I got saved so I speak with this objective in this thread being on the other side of the coin also. I do not think I have a disease or what I suffer in this life is genetic but I suffer mentally just the same and do not feel whole but sick in mind picking up the pieces. This did not change when I got saved but remained afterwards. Do I make any sense in what I am trying to say or add in this discussion. OC god is not mocked. whatever we so is what we will reap. so if we want to reap something different from what we have been reaping, then we must start sowing something different than we have been sowing. be patient with yourself. some crops take longer than others, but your sowing will never be in vain. have you done anything to detoxify your body? there are many things which can drag us down that seem small but make a big difference. dental work and diet are the two most common. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Dole Posted May 30, 2006 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 139 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/28/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted May 30, 2006 Well I don't see alcoholism as a disease. Also, any disease you get from alcoholism you're getting because you're injesting poison (alcohol is a poison, that burning you feel when strong liquor goes down your throat is your body's way of saying "STOP! That isn't good for me!") I've heard so many bad things about 12 step programs too, they really just say "You're completely helpless, just pray to god and you'll stop drinking." Well it doesn't work like that. I guess I was fortunate enough to not have an addictive personality, I've never been addicted to anything. I've enjoyed things but I've never been to the point where I couldn't stop at will. For the unforunate who do have one, god is testing you. He wants to know that you have the inner strength to overcome the addiction. He doesn't want to just take away your addiction, he wants you to see his reward and just go for it yourself. Like if a couple of parents that want to see their child take it's first steps and walk to them without them having to hold the child's hand. Even though I don't think alcoholism is a disease, I think you can cure it with medicine or surgery. You'd just have to alter the brain chemistry that is telling you "I need a drink" I'm sure in 50 years it'll be much easier to do as we get a better understanding of the human mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Openly Curious Posted May 30, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 55 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,568 Content Per Day: 0.68 Reputation: 770 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/18/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted May 30, 2006 Paul is saying dismiss the deception you are a new creature no longer bound. Scripture at the very least says, even if you were sick, you are no longer sick you are whole. OC This speaking of our sins we commited against Father G-d we no longer are sin sick as we have been washed from past sins. We are in in this way made whole and complete. I want to say some things here but do not quite no how to elaborate on them. If one is fat before salvation experience they will be fat also afterwards that did not change. If you are a blonde when you get saved you still are a blonde that will not change If you are short when you get saved you will still be short afterwards. There are somethings about us when we get saved that does not change because we get saved. I got saved and my sins were washed away from me without a doubt but the sins of others still remain in which i have to deal with and the pain is so very real. For it wasn't washed away I deal and cope the best i can I no longer use drugs and alcohol as a source to dull and stop the pain but the pain didn't stop because I got saved so I speak with this objective in this thread being on the other side of the coin also. I do not think I have a disease or what I suffer in this life is genetic but I suffer mentally just the same and do not feel whole but sick in mind picking up the pieces. This did not change when I got saved but remained afterwards. Do I make any sense in what I am trying to say or add in this discussion. OC god is not mocked. whatever we so is what we will reap. so if we want to reap something different from what we have been reaping, then we must start sowing something different than we have been sowing. be patient with yourself. some crops take longer than others, but your sowing will never be in vain. have you done anything to detoxify your body? there are many things which can drag us down that seem small but make a big difference. dental work and diet are the two most common. your comments utterly do not make any sense unto me. OC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David from New Bern Posted May 30, 2006 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 75 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 527 Content Per Day: 0.08 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/21/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/03/1964 Author Share Posted May 30, 2006 Behavior patterns are hard to break, in Biblical speak that is known as the old nature. Yes, much of the old sin nature must still be dealt with on a issue by issue basis. That is what sanctification is all about. But, we are talking about habits. The familiar ways of entertaining, comforting, coping, and manipulating our lives. But Scripture, plainly says we are new creatures set free,"such were some of you" The point of the thread, is it a disease or sin? A sin I would have to say. A choice, a failure to recognize the truth, "I have been set free...instead I prefer excuse" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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