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Disease or sin?


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Behavior patterns are hard to break, in Biblical speak that is known as the old nature. Yes, much of the old sin nature must still be dealt with on a issue by issue basis. That is what sanctification is all about. But, we are talking about habits. The familiar ways of entertaining, comforting, coping, and manipulating our lives. But Scripture, plainly says we are new creatures set free,"such were some of you" The point of the thread, is it a disease or sin? A sin I would have to say. A choice, a failure to recognize the truth, "I have been set free...instead I prefer excuse"

Can we use smoking as an example. God convicts you of smoking. When you realize your body is the temple of God it becomes sin to you. So now want to quit. Your old nature doesn't want you to quit because it is satisfies the flesh when you light up. Satan doesn't want you to quit because you are dying a little everytime you light up. God delivers some, and others have to work at quitting. It takes a conscious effort to stop. For me God didn't deliver me from smoking. I had a hard time quitting. I made a conscious effort to stop. I realized I was in a war and I decided to fight. I believe God helped me with the strength to quit, but I had to fight the flesh and satan. I understand there is a physical addiction, but that lasts only 72 hours. The rest of the battle is in your mind. "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness, against spiritual wickedness in high places." Eph. 6:12 (KJV)

The NIV says it this way. "For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms."

So, no matter what your "sin or addiction" happens to be you cannot quit on your own. God has provided a way out and you have to want it and make up you mind you are going to have. It is a spiritual war and we have to fight to win.

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Thinking we can't quit on our own is exactly the same type of stuff that keeps people in rehab for their whole lives. We can quit on our own, god wants us to do that. God made us strong and gave us the strength we would need to quit, we just have to find that strength inside ourselves and use it. God doesn't want to help us because we're just replacing one crutch (alcohol) with another (god.) There's nothing wrong with god but he wants to see that we can do things on our own without always relying on him. Imagine if your child needed money and just relied on you all the time. Instead of going out and finding a job they just come by and ask you for money, god doesn't want us to be like that so he gives us all the tools we need and it's up to us to use them.

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1Jo 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. :wub:

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I think it's sin leading to disease. I do believe that some people may need to be in therapy etc. for the rest of their lives because of it. If it keeps them from sinning, I think they, as Christians struggling with this stronghold-disease, have the responsability to accept that kind of treatment if at all possible.

Genetics come into play in addiction diseases in a lot of ways. They have found, for instance, that in certain Native groups there is actually a gene that causes certain amounts of alcohol in their system to have a cocaine-like effect in its addictive strength. This is one of the reasons rates of alcoholism an be so high among certain native groups. Many people also have addictive personalities, which come down through the generations ("sins of the father...", is my guess). I have an ex who had that issue. The thing is, these things are all controllable, and I think it is sin to not make every effort to treat both the causes of the addiction and the addiction itself.

"these things are all controllable"..who's point of view is that from?

does this point of view come from the non-addicted person..or from the person who has lived IN addiction? :taped:

It comes from someone addiction free, but who has heard the testimony of someone who has lived in addiction. And yeah, he said it is one of the most difficult things to do, controlling his addictive tendancies, but he's got help, from councellors, his family, the councellors at the camp he works at during the summer...and as far as I know, he is still dry. He's had some really bad nights (early on in his attempt to get sober, after a tough week at camp, he asked one of the other camp councellors to pray for him...the guy ended up taking the battery out of his car and hiding it from him because he was afraid he'd drive to town and get himself drunk...and my friend was mighty surprised when he couldn't get his car started), but with the help of the people around him, he's come a long way.

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The subjectiveness of this thread sometimes will handicap our discussion. Those who have lived in addiction sometimes forget they have lived in deception. A deception that says you don't have a choice you are hopelessly bound to this behavior. The disease argument matches their reality. I hate to be this blunt, but you have a hard time being objective about what has happened when you are the one that was deceived. Before you dismiss this direct comment. Think biblically and dismiss your interpretation of your experiences, which are one dimensional at best for just a few moments....

If the argument is environmental influence that leads to alcoholism, you've got my support. But a gene or genetic link, is the medical pyschiatric field making up answers that they have no satisfactory proof only theories. But it is a keen way to dismiss responsibility. "He/She can't help it they are sick." Of course, there are plenty of crutches and cliche's that say you don't ever have to submit to permanent change because you are _(DIAGNOSIS). Jesus says we are set free, we don't have to pray for healing of a "behavioral disease."

Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God. 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 NKJV

Paul is saying dismiss the deception you are a new creature no longer bound. Scripture at the very least says, even if you were sick, you are no longer sick you are whole.

David,

Had you read the previous threads you would have seen that I understand the deceptiveness of the disease and what satan plants in us making us believe we don't have a choice.

We (addicts) are diagnosed with a disease and are told that it is incurable, I disagree. I know that God heals ALL disease and afliction. I was told I didn't have a choice. I also know that is wrong. If I am not in the disease (relapsed) I am able to let God protect me in a way that keeps me from using drugs and am able to recognize that when thoughts of using are coming into my head it is because satan is planting them there, not because of my disease but because he can use my disease as a tool to get me away from God and back into that sinful lifestyle. When a person is using they pretty much don't have a choice because the drugs/alcohol hinder logical and right thinking. I found myself so many times wanting to not use but using anyhow. As Paul said, that which I know I should not do I do and that which I should do I don't..it is sin. I know it is sin. But getting out of that sin sometimes takes years and years and is a very painful process, not just emotionally, but physically and psychologically.

I have not seen anything yet that tells me that addiction is not a disease and stand firm that it is really a disease. It is a psychological disease that runs in families and is also a familial curse. Disease is of satan because of sin. They run in families because that is the curse God gave.

I totally understand that. And I understand through experience of living in the disease what it does to people. I do not feel that this scews my view nor do I believe that satan decieves me any longer into believing this is something I have to live with. :taped:

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The subjectiveness of this thread sometimes will handicap our discussion. Those who have lived in addiction sometimes forget they have lived in deception. A deception that says you don't have a choice you are hopelessly bound to this behavior. The disease argument matches their reality. I hate to be this blunt, but you have a hard time being objective about what has happened when you are the one that was deceived. Before you dismiss this direct comment. Think biblically and dismiss your interpretation of your experiences, which are one dimensional at best for just a few moments....

If the argument is environmental influence that leads to alcoholism, you've got my support. But a gene or genetic link, is the medical pyschiatric field making up answers that they have no satisfactory proof only theories. But it is a keen way to dismiss responsibility. "He/She can't help it they are sick." Of course, there are plenty of crutches and cliche's that say you don't ever have to submit to permanent change because you are _(DIAGNOSIS). Jesus says we are set free, we don't have to pray for healing of a "behavioral disease."

Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God. 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 NKJV

Paul is saying dismiss the deception you are a new creature no longer bound. Scripture at the very least says, even if you were sick, you are no longer sick you are whole.

David,

Had you read the previous threads you would have seen that I understand the deceptiveness of the disease and what satan plants in us making us believe we don't have a choice.

We (addicts) are diagnosed with a disease and are told that it is incurable, I disagree. I know that God heals ALL disease and afliction. I was told I didn't have a choice. I also know that is wrong. If I am not in the disease (relapsed) I am able to let God protect me in a way that keeps me from using drugs and am able to recognize that when thoughts of using are coming into my head it is because satan is planting them there, not because of my disease but because he can use my disease as a tool to get me away from God and back into that sinful lifestyle. When a person is using they pretty much don't have a choice because the drugs/alcohol hinder logical and right thinking. I found myself so many times wanting to not use but using anyhow. As Paul said, that which I know I should not do I do and that which I should do I don't..it is sin. I know it is sin. But getting out of that sin sometimes takes years and years and is a very painful process, not just emotionally, but physically and psychologically.

I have not seen anything yet that tells me that addiction is not a disease and stand firm that it is really a disease. It is a psychological disease that runs in families and is also a familial curse. Disease is of satan because of sin. They run in families because that is the curse God gave.

I totally understand that. And I understand through experience of living in the disease what it does to people. I do not feel that this scews my view nor do I believe that satan decieves me any longer into believing this is something I have to live with. :taped:

If it is a disease...is it viral? or genetic?...If it is genetic...God is to blame. Then there may be some credibility that homosexuals are born genetically defective, then God is at fault. If it is a disease, we should not prosecute crimminal cases where acting out of symptomatic substance abuse is known or found. We would not prosecute a person with narcolepsy who killed someone in an automobile accident. I know I'm being hard line on this, but if Scripture says we are new creatures....all things have passed away.....behold all things have been made new. That is what is said about your salvation. Any area we continue to be controlled means we are living under a deception in that particular area. The whole disease argument is smoke and mirrors trying to create an unholy marriage between secular pyschiatry and the truth of Scripture. The word sin is not in the glossary of the psyche text, but the word disease or abnormality. I'll take the Biblical approach and think in terms of eternity rather than the next 24 hours. I have a friends with 10-20-30-40-50 years of sobriety who are now adddicted to a program and a philosophy that tells them they could relapse because diseases do that you know.

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The subjectiveness of this thread sometimes will handicap our discussion. Those who have lived in addiction sometimes forget they have lived in deception. A deception that says you don't have a choice you are hopelessly bound to this behavior. The disease argument matches their reality. I hate to be this blunt, but you have a hard time being objective about what has happened when you are the one that was deceived. Before you dismiss this direct comment. Think biblically and dismiss your interpretation of your experiences, which are one dimensional at best for just a few moments....

If the argument is environmental influence that leads to alcoholism, you've got my support. But a gene or genetic link, is the medical pyschiatric field making up answers that they have no satisfactory proof only theories. But it is a keen way to dismiss responsibility. "He/She can't help it they are sick." Of course, there are plenty of crutches and cliche's that say you don't ever have to submit to permanent change because you are _(DIAGNOSIS). Jesus says we are set free, we don't have to pray for healing of a "behavioral disease."

Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God. 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 NKJV

Paul is saying dismiss the deception you are a new creature no longer bound. Scripture at the very least says, even if you were sick, you are no longer sick you are whole.

David,

Had you read the previous threads you would have seen that I understand the deceptiveness of the disease and what satan plants in us making us believe we don't have a choice.

We (addicts) are diagnosed with a disease and are told that it is incurable, I disagree. I know that God heals ALL disease and afliction. I was told I didn't have a choice. I also know that is wrong. If I am not in the disease (relapsed) I am able to let God protect me in a way that keeps me from using drugs and am able to recognize that when thoughts of using are coming into my head it is because satan is planting them there, not because of my disease but because he can use my disease as a tool to get me away from God and back into that sinful lifestyle. When a person is using they pretty much don't have a choice because the drugs/alcohol hinder logical and right thinking. I found myself so many times wanting to not use but using anyhow. As Paul said, that which I know I should not do I do and that which I should do I don't..it is sin. I know it is sin. But getting out of that sin sometimes takes years and years and is a very painful process, not just emotionally, but physically and psychologically.

I have not seen anything yet that tells me that addiction is not a disease and stand firm that it is really a disease. It is a psychological disease that runs in families and is also a familial curse. Disease is of satan because of sin. They run in families because that is the curse God gave.

I totally understand that. And I understand through experience of living in the disease what it does to people. I do not feel that this scews my view nor do I believe that satan decieves me any longer into believing this is something I have to live with. :)

If it is a disease...is it viral? or genetic?...If it is genetic...God is to blame. Then there may be some credibility that homosexuals are born genetically defective, then God is at fault. If it is a disease, we should not prosecute crimminal cases where acting out of symptomatic substance abuse is known or found. We would not prosecute a person with narcolepsy who killed someone in an automobile accident. I know I'm being hard line on this, but if Scripture says we are new creatures....all things have passed away.....behold all things have been made new. That is what is said about your salvation. Any area we continue to be controlled means we are living under a deception in that particular area.

Tell me where in any of this did I claim that I have NOT been made a new creature through God's healing.

So, (hypothetical) geneticly you know that diabetes runs in your family. You have seen your grandfather lose his eye sight and a limb because his life choices took away from the proper care he should have taken to prevent these things from happening. Question, had your grandfather listened to what he could have done to prevent these things does that mean he doesn't have the diabetes? No, it means that there were preventable measures he could have taken to keep his eyesight and his leg. Does this mean he sinned yes. Why because he was aware of what could have been done to prevent it and did not care for the temple that God placed his spirit in.

You are talking to a person who began using at the age of 15 when there was little or no medical knowledge about the disease of addiction. People were unaware that they could be predisposed through genetics to carry this disease. And let's face it. Not many kids consider what drinking a beer with their buddies could do to their lives. Does that mean they sinned because they drank the beer? No, it means they were ignorant of the consequences of what might happen to them in the future. When I became aware of what using drugs and alcohol were doing to me and I continued to use I was sinning and it was the hardest thing in my entire life to break.

I want you to know that along with the sin of continuing to use drugs, your issues that you are having with my points of view bring up a plethera of other horrible things that I lived through and the aweful sins I committed and the judgement that I endured by people such as yourself who assume that this is something worse than the every day average sin each and every one of us commits daily. Judge not lest ye be judged David. You accept cancer, diabetes, parkinsons and many other health issues as disease. What makes this one different? Is it because you lack medical education about it, is it because you can't see the disease taking body parts away, or dimentia setting in?

I am not hindered with the fact that I HAD the disease. I am educated on what the disease is and can do and I know where it originates from. Satan and familial curses due to sin. Sin that occured long before I was conceived and was blessed to endure. Please stop now David.

THE DISEASE OF ADDICTION IS BOTH DISEASE AND IT IS SIN.....

One other thing, I am not controlled by the disease any longer, when I used I was, I am now a new creature through the salvation I have received through Christ who took all of my wrongs and threw them into the sea of forgetfulness

God Bless :emot-handshake:

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Jackie;

It is a deeply personal issue for you, and I know it can't be anything but that for you. I wouldn't want to hurt your feelings unnecessarily. But, this is important enough, and the stakes are high enough for people unlike yourself who have not beaten it. There are bunch who have bought this philosophy hook line and sinker and sit in defeat rather than victory. This will be my last post unless I am invited to continue. Please tell me what sin is not addictive? The biblical word is bondage, who is the bondage breaker? If this discussion were about demonic influence or possession it would be a more credible argument. I have a copy of Newsweek magazine from a few years back, they claim they have isolated a abnormality in the brain of Kleptomaniacs. So next, we can claim we are predisposed to stealing. Then Hell is going to be full of handicap people.according to 1 Corinthians 6:11. Jackie, I love your spirit and you have ministered to me. Regardless if you agree God is using you in a mighty way. I ask only that you let the Bible speak for itself. I respectfully suggest it can't be a disease and sin, there is no moderate view.

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Jackie;

It is a deeply personal issue for you, and I know it can't be anything but that for you. I wouldn't want to hurt your feelings unnecessarily. But, this is important enough, and the stakes are high enough for people unlike yourself who have not beaten it. There are bunch who have bought this philosophy hook line and sinker and sit in defeat rather than victory. This will be my last post unless I am invited to continue. Please tell me what sin is not addictive? The biblical word is bondage, who is the bondage breaker? If this discussion were about demonic influence or possession it would be a more credible argument. I have a copy of Newsweek magazine from a few years back, they claim they have isolated a abnormality in the brain of Kleptomaniacs. So next, we can claim we are predisposed to stealing. Then Hell is going to be full of handicap people.according to 1 Corinthians 6:11. Jackie, I love your spirit and you have ministered to me. Regardless if you agree God is using you in a mighty way. I ask only that you let the Bible speak for itself. I respectfully suggest it can't be a disease and sin, there is no moderate view.

Disease is sin David, all disease is sin. And just as God is not a simple being but one with many dimensions He has included things in ALL issues that have more than just a concept of the human mind that things can be as simple. Maybe I do not make sense to those who don't and haven't lived it. There is a consumation of the entire being that tells me addiction/bondage is sin. And on the flip side there is a consumation of the enire being that tells me addiction/bondage is disease. I don't view God as moderate, David. I view Him as a complex being.

Death is the wage of sin, disease is a way of death. Sin + disease could equal addiction/bondage..or any number of other things such as cancer or diabetes. I am not trying to be a text book example of medical and psyciatric medicine and science. But just as we know God created the earth and all that is in it..medicine and psychiatry exist for a reason. And not every doctor or psychiatrist or scientist out there doesn't believe in God.

Do I believe that God is the only way to the cure for ALL disease absolutely. And it saddens me to see people get caught up in the LIE that once an addict always an addict.

Fortunately many who find the road to recovery enter anonymous groups that believe in a "higher power" and that often leads to finding God. Who then can lead them away from the lies and docterines of disbelief that they can never be cured or become a new creation. And because this is such a terrible affliction that consumes the entire being it is a blessing that these groups are formed. They are not perfect. But the 12 steps of the programs come directly from the bible..when Bill W..one of the founders of AA..got sober he sought God and God showed him that all he had done while living in the disease/bondage was forgivable through those 12 steps/having originated in the NT. Which of course would lead to Jesus and forgiveness of the sins commited while living in the disease/bondage/addiction.

Many people when they get clean and sober have difficulty with God because of where they have been and what they have experienced. It is often through those 12 steps that God is found and true healing of this disease/bondage occurs. We may not be in agreement with how the process is done. But let me ask you if a person is seeking help and finds it and finds God in the process isn't God's greatest desire reached? He would that none should perish.

I am for learning about all aspects of this disease/bondage and though I know in my heart of hearts that the lies about this bondage being with me forever is not true. But each and every one of us was brought out of our bondage in manners that amaze and confuse us.

Yes you are right many are lost through concepts such as this disease that are learned through the eyes of man. But many are found.

Generational curses and genetics do carry disease from one family member to the other. God even said it would happen. The bible tells me so. And because of that I can not be swayed in believing that disease and sin do not go hand in hand. God also points us to the cure/healing of these diseases and sins and I cannot be swayed in that either.

Have a God blessed day :emot-handshake:

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Jackie;

It is a deeply personal issue for you, and I know it can't be anything but that for you. I wouldn't want to hurt your feelings unnecessarily. But, this is important enough, and the stakes are high enough for people unlike yourself who have not beaten it. There are bunch who have bought this philosophy hook line and sinker and sit in defeat rather than victory. This will be my last post unless I am invited to continue. Please tell me what sin is not addictive? The biblical word is bondage, who is the bondage breaker? If this discussion were about demonic influence or possession it would be a more credible argument. I have a copy of Newsweek magazine from a few years back, they claim they have isolated a abnormality in the brain of Kleptomaniacs. So next, we can claim we are predisposed to stealing. Then Hell is going to be full of handicap people.according to 1 Corinthians 6:11. Jackie, I love your spirit and you have ministered to me. Regardless if you agree God is using you in a mighty way. I ask only that you let the Bible speak for itself. I respectfully suggest it can't be a disease and sin, there is no moderate view.

Disease is sin David, all disease is sin. And just as God is not a simple being but one with many dimensions He has included things in ALL issues that have more than just a concept of the human mind that things can be as simple. Maybe I do not make sense to those who don't and haven't lived it. There is a consumation of the entire being that tells me addiction/bondage is sin. And on the flip side there is a consumation of the enire being that tells me addiction/bondage is disease. I don't view God as moderate, David. I view Him as a complex being.

Death is the wage of sin, disease is a way of death. Sin + disease could equal addiction/bondage..or any number of other things such as cancer or diabetes. I am not trying to be a text book example of medical and psyciatric medicine and science. But just as we know God created the earth and all that is in it..medicine and psychiatry exist for a reason. And not every doctor or psychiatrist or scientist out there doesn't believe in God.

Do I believe that God is the only way to the cure for ALL disease absolutely. And it saddens me to see people get caught up in the LIE that once an addict always an addict.

Fortunately many who find the road to recovery enter anonymous groups that believe in a "higher power" and that often leads to finding God. Who then can lead them away from the lies and docterines of disbelief that they can never be cured or become a new creation. And because this is such a terrible affliction that consumes the entire being it is a blessing that these groups are formed. They are not perfect. But the 12 steps of the programs come directly from the bible..when Bill W..one of the founders of AA..got sober he sought God and God showed him that all he had done while living in the disease/bondage was forgivable through those 12 steps/having originated in the NT. Which of course would lead to Jesus and forgiveness of the sins commited while living in the disease/bondage/addiction.

Many people when they get clean and sober have difficulty with God because of where they have been and what they have experienced. It is often through those 12 steps that God is found and true healing of this disease/bondage occurs. We may not be in agreement with how the process is done. But let me ask you if a person is seeking help and finds it and finds God in the process isn't God's greatest desire reached? He would that none should perish.

I am for learning about all aspects of this disease/bondage and though I know in my heart of hearts that the lies about this bondage being with me forever is not true. But each and every one of us was brought out of our bondage in manners that amaze and confuse us.

Yes you are right many are lost through concepts such as this disease that are learned through the eyes of man. But many are found.

Generational curses and genetics do carry disease from one family member to the other. God even said it would happen. The bible tells me so. And because of that I can not be swayed in believing that disease and sin do not go hand in hand. God also points us to the cure/healing of these diseases and sins and I cannot be swayed in that either.

Have a God blessed day :emot-handshake:

There are some gaps of understanding between the two of us. I have never been a substance abuser, but I have a wealth of ministry experience with the issues. And have been involved long enough to see some turn the corner to stability and spiritual productivity. So, I'm use to the vernacular and the arguments that would likely surface in a continued conversation. I love people and am willing to work with the understanding the person has at the point of seeking help or with the understanding the person has at a later point of reflection. Disease is not sin. Disease is the result of sin in the world. It was a curse as the result of the fall of Adam and Eve. Genesis 3 is very clear on this. Disease effects all of humanity, it is an environmental issue. Lastly, we have to be careful of a Utilitarian philosophy that as long as it gets results erroneous belief is ok. I sensed personal pain earlier in your post. This is a personal pain for this pastor, who sees individuals believing their 12 step program is a spiritual program and that they don't need the church. Or will not step into the stability of faith walking for they are concerned they are one Friday night away from embarassing everybody. I know you don't fit that description but I know those who are in that situation. We say 12 step programs are great steps in intervention, but at some point become the problem as well. There is a great book I suggest you read called Addicted to Recovery. It explains my concerns well. From the surface this may seem to be a semantical argument. But, deception is subtle, that is why it is deceptive. It seems logical. As for the psychiatric and medical community, they are having little or no success. People who recover have had a spiritual awakening. That has been my subjective experience. When people begin thinking Biblically things begin happening in their life that become permanent and attest to the spiritual not metaphysical aspect of the issue.

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