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Disease or sin?


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Guest jckduboise

Jackie;

It is a deeply personal issue for you, and I know it can't be anything but that for you. I wouldn't want to hurt your feelings unnecessarily. But, this is important enough, and the stakes are high enough for people unlike yourself who have not beaten it. There are bunch who have bought this philosophy hook line and sinker and sit in defeat rather than victory. This will be my last post unless I am invited to continue. Please tell me what sin is not addictive? The biblical word is bondage, who is the bondage breaker? If this discussion were about demonic influence or possession it would be a more credible argument. I have a copy of Newsweek magazine from a few years back, they claim they have isolated a abnormality in the brain of Kleptomaniacs. So next, we can claim we are predisposed to stealing. Then Hell is going to be full of handicap people.according to 1 Corinthians 6:11. Jackie, I love your spirit and you have ministered to me. Regardless if you agree God is using you in a mighty way. I ask only that you let the Bible speak for itself. I respectfully suggest it can't be a disease and sin, there is no moderate view.

Disease is sin David, all disease is sin. And just as God is not a simple being but one with many dimensions He has included things in ALL issues that have more than just a concept of the human mind that things can be as simple. Maybe I do not make sense to those who don't and haven't lived it. There is a consumation of the entire being that tells me addiction/bondage is sin. And on the flip side there is a consumation of the enire being that tells me addiction/bondage is disease. I don't view God as moderate, David. I view Him as a complex being.

Death is the wage of sin, disease is a way of death. Sin + disease could equal addiction/bondage..or any number of other things such as cancer or diabetes. I am not trying to be a text book example of medical and psyciatric medicine and science. But just as we know God created the earth and all that is in it..medicine and psychiatry exist for a reason. And not every doctor or psychiatrist or scientist out there doesn't believe in God.

Do I believe that God is the only way to the cure for ALL disease absolutely. And it saddens me to see people get caught up in the LIE that once an addict always an addict.

Fortunately many who find the road to recovery enter anonymous groups that believe in a "higher power" and that often leads to finding God. Who then can lead them away from the lies and docterines of disbelief that they can never be cured or become a new creation. And because this is such a terrible affliction that consumes the entire being it is a blessing that these groups are formed. They are not perfect. But the 12 steps of the programs come directly from the bible..when Bill W..one of the founders of AA..got sober he sought God and God showed him that all he had done while living in the disease/bondage was forgivable through those 12 steps/having originated in the NT. Which of course would lead to Jesus and forgiveness of the sins commited while living in the disease/bondage/addiction.

Many people when they get clean and sober have difficulty with God because of where they have been and what they have experienced. It is often through those 12 steps that God is found and true healing of this disease/bondage occurs. We may not be in agreement with how the process is done. But let me ask you if a person is seeking help and finds it and finds God in the process isn't God's greatest desire reached? He would that none should perish.

I am for learning about all aspects of this disease/bondage and though I know in my heart of hearts that the lies about this bondage being with me forever is not true. But each and every one of us was brought out of our bondage in manners that amaze and confuse us.

Yes you are right many are lost through concepts such as this disease that are learned through the eyes of man. But many are found.

Generational curses and genetics do carry disease from one family member to the other. God even said it would happen. The bible tells me so. And because of that I can not be swayed in believing that disease and sin do not go hand in hand. God also points us to the cure/healing of these diseases and sins and I cannot be swayed in that either.

Have a God blessed day :emot-hug:

There are some gaps of understanding between the two of us. I have never been a substance abuser, but I have a wealth of ministry experience with the issues. And have been involved long enough to see some turn the corner to stability and spiritual productivity. So, I'm use to the vernacular and the arguments that would likely surface in a continued conversation. I love people and am willing to work with the understanding the person has at the point of seeking help or with the understanding the person has at a later point of reflection. Disease is not sin. Disease is the result of sin in the world. It was a curse as the result of the fall of Adam and Eve. Genesis 3 is very clear on this. Disease effects all of humanity, it is an environmental issue. Lastly, we have to be careful of a Utilitarian philosophy that as long as it gets results erroneous belief is ok. I sensed personal pain earlier in your post. This is a personal pain for this pastor, who sees individuals believing their 12 step program is a spiritual program and that they don't need the church. Or will not step into the stability of faith walking for they are concerned they are one Friday night away from embarassing everybody. I know you don't fit that description but I know those who are in that situation. We say 12 step programs are great steps in intervention, but at some point become the problem as well. There is a great book I suggest you read called Addicted to Recovery. It explains my concerns well. From the surface this may seem to be a semantical argument. But, deception is subtle, that is why it is deceptive. It seems logical. As for the psychiatric and medical community, they are having little or no success. People who recover have had a spiritual awakening. That has been my subjective experience. When people begin thinking Biblically things begin happening in their life that become permanent and attest to the spiritual not metaphysical aspect of the issue.

Thank you David I will take your concern to heart. Differences of opinion are bound to happen and where you've seen failure I have seen success. There are always to sides to a coin. Deception is deception and if I am being deceived I pray the Lord will guide me out.

I do however, want to say that to put in a nutshell that all who use Anonymous groups that include the 12 steps are not going to find the truth is to say that God is limited in His ability. To say that the 12 step programs tell people they don't need church is ignorance. I've attended many in the past and what is suggested is that we do whatever it takes to stay clean because we did whatever it took to get high. As I spoke before I do not agree with everything that goes on in those meetings, nor do I believe the docterines of always being addicted. But I do believe the 12 step programs were God inspired and God lived. Just as the church has endocrinated man made beliefs and worked on changing the moral values God has laid down for us, so the 12 steps have had their foolish moments.

BUT IF I WAS IN NEED OF A MEETING AND NEEDED TO BE AROUND PEOPLE WHO UNDERSTOOD WHAT WAS GOING ON INSIDE OF ME, I WOULD GO TO A MEETING. jUST THE SAME IF THERE WAS ONLY ONE CHURCH IN THE TOWN I LIVED IN AND I NEEDED CHURCH I WOULD GO. WHY? BECAUSE GOD IS EVERYWHERE I AM.

I am not in acceptance of anything that is not of God. I am not addicted to recovery and I do know what can happen to people who rely too much on their recovering groups to lead them in the right direction. I am not blind to the dangers in that. But let's give God the credit due to Him. If he wants a person He IS going to get that person, no matter where that person is.

God Bless David, I am finished with this thread. Much too painful for me to deal with today..maybe another time. :wub:

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Jackie, I am not understanding how you can call an addiction a disease...

Honestly I cannot... :emot-hug:

If I choose to smoke, drink, do drugs, sex or whatever addictive behavior I can come up with...

it is my choice.....not a disease..

I cannot blame my grandparents for my choices of sin....

we are all capable of all sin .....we are not immune to anything of the fallen flesh nature....

the flesh nature calls us and we choose to OR do not choose to follow it..no disease here.....

I have to take full responsibility for my sins..

I have yielded to a sin...become addicted..repented..got cleansed and am no more addicted as God has set me free....

I am not a addict any longer...

just because my flesh is calling me to sin again does not make me an addict....

we are all being called upon by our flesh nature to sin....whatever our brand of sin may be...

But if I have diabetes and my parents and my grandparents and the ones before them then I can look at them and say I inherited this disease from them..I had NO choice in the matter..disease is not a choice...

my grandparents and aunts and uncles and and others were alcoholics..

If I became an alcoholic it would have been my own foolish choice and there is no way I could blame them for passing down to me their alcoholism...

:wub:

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Jackie, I am sorry your still struggling...

there will come a day when you will be completely free... Yes!! :emot-hug:

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Guest jckduboise
Jackie, I am sorry your still struggling...

there will come a day when you will be completely free... Yes!! :emot-hug:

Tah I don't struggle with addiction. I am free and healed. I struggle with misunderstanding and judgement, and stigma and all of the other uncomfortable things that non-addicts feel and how they put it out there for those who are or were addicted. It saddens me and takes me back to the days of persecution by those who don't see it any other way besides what they think they know. I don't think you are all completely off base but I do think there is a lot of uneducated guessing on the subject and therefore my time on this thread is done. God gave me a clear understanding of what I had been dealing with and with that understanding of the WHOLE picture I was set free..

God bless

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Not an uneducated guess here Jackie..

been there ...done that..guilty I was..

But God did set me free after many years..

I woke up one day and I was free...

but only because I stood my ground and did not yield to the temptation to sin..

It is gone.... \ :emot-hug: /

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Not an uneducated guess here Jackie..

been there ...done that..guilty I was..

But God did set me free after many years..

I woke up one day and I was free...

but only because I stood my ground and did not yield to the temptation to sin..

It is gone.... \ :wub: /

Praise the Lord Tah, it is done for me as well..and just for the record I WAS guilty too...

He is soooo Good :emot-hug:

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sin is not the issue. jesus died for the sins of the whole world. the gifts of god are without repentence. that is the "good news." the 'bad' news is that we still reap what we sow.

disease is not a mystery. disease is of basically three categories - gentetic, physical injury, and diet. the first two are fairly self explaintory. the third one is the key to it all.

david from bern is right in that disease entered mankind at the same time that sin did. they are bound together. but lets look at what action brought this about. it was the act of eating that brought both illness and sin into the world. the spiritual significance of disobedience resulting in death is not lost either. it is all connected.

when adam was created, in the image of god, it can be easily and i believe rightly assumed that if he had not eaten the FTKGE(fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil), he would have lived forever. up until that point, there was no mechanism in place for which he would incur death. so what was he eating that would allow his flesh to maintain itself in perpetuity?

there was a period of time from the forming of adam from the dust of the ground to the planting of the the garden when there is no mention that adam ate anything. he survived on his breath alone. we know it takes a while for plants to grow and bear fruit. then the lord said to adam:

15And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.

16And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

17But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

so then, in this perfect state of creation, adam was given a job to do. the increased activity would require more energy than was available to him just from breathing and the sun. so, as any grade schooler can tell you, all the cells in the body need to metabolize is water, oxygen and sugar. we are sugar eaters. ask any child what he thinks. and not just any sugar, but the lord provided fruit from trees for adam to accomplish his tasks without tiring. we are, according to the scriptures, fruitarians. that is what we were created to be.

so sin entered into the world thorugh the act of disobedience. much transpired here, but one of the things that happened regarding health is that the flesh over ruled what adam knew to be right. he lusted with his eyes and he partook with his lips. man has never stopped this addiction ever since. some have overcome it, but they have done so by fasting and meditating on the lord. and these are the ones we read about - noah, abraham, isaac, jacob, joseph, david, daniel, john the baptist. they all have one thing in common - they denied their flesh food. they all fasted. oh yes, and paul, too. and when fasting is mentioned in the bible, it does not say "if" you fast, it says "when" you fast. it is certainly a part of seeking first the kingdom of god. but it is not only necessary for spiritual health, it is necessary for physical health as well. presenting your body as a living sacrifice, wholey acceptable unto god, which is your reasonable service is not just another slogan. it is doable. just look at these verses :

# Matthew 17:21

Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.

# Mark 9:29

And he said unto them, This kind can come forth by nothing, but by prayer and fasting.

the sick person must be fasted. that is the only way, even according to our lord. and if you think i am misconstruing the meaning of the scriptures here, consider this:

luke 2

36And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser: she was of a great age, and had lived with an husband seven years from her virginity;

37And she was a widow of about fourscore and four years, which departed not from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day.

here it is for all to see. this womans prayer and fasting kept her from death and disease. this would not have happened without the fasting.

no matter how disease enters a person, that person has built in to every strand of dna, the ability to correct itself, repair and replace anything in the body. so that all disease is a matter of diet, no matter how it is acquired.

this may seem quite alien to some, such as OC who said he had no idea what i was talking about, but that is the crux of it. our diet today is so far away from what is normal and health giving as to be laughable. how can life come from anything dead? all cooked food is dead food.

search the scriptures and find if i am wrong. look a jesus feeding the 5000. was he running a barbeque there? were those loaves the same fractionated red wheat and baked at 350 degrees that we know? no, those fish were raw and those cakes were oil mixed with sprouted grains. how do i know this? because i know our lord and he would not give us anything that was not good for us. john the baptist ate honey and locusts. look at the vow of the nazarite. look at how much of the word of god is devoted to proper eating or setting limits on eating.

bottom line is we dont need genetics or an accident to disable us. all we need is to eat a standard american diet year after year. that dead food will clog circulation, deaden the tissues, impede elimination, and create a stagnant cesspool in our bodies that reeks and creates acid and kills our cells one at a time, day after day, 24/7. the only cure is to fast all of these accumulated morbid matters out of the body and not put them back in. that person will have more than enough energy for every day of life and live to over 100 as the lord has decreed, given we are not called home on some other account. but the addiction is strong, and morsels and dainties very tastey. many would rather die than give them up. they will.

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Jackie;

Know that I love you...don't let our opposing views stand in the way of you knowing that I have great admiration for who you are and what you have allowed God to do in and through your life. I may never meet you face to face here, but one day I will tell you face to face. We can praise the Lord together for what His grace has done in our lives. Please don't let this thread I started discourage or hamper you in any way. I would be wrong to simply try to out debate you the Holy Spirit will teach both of us the truth.

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Guest jckduboise
Jackie;

Know that I love you...don't let our opposing views stand in the way of you knowing that I have great admiration for who you are and what you have allowed God to do in and through your life. I may never meet you face to face here, but one day I will tell you face to face. We can praise the Lord together for what His grace has done in our lives. Please don't let this thread I started discourage or hamper you in any way. I would be wrong to simply try to out debate you the Holy Spirit will teach both of us the truth.

Yes he will brother and I love you too...know that I have been through worse than what happened in this thread and I am a very strong woman through the Love of our Lord Jesus. Please do not worry about me. I will be back same time tomorrow ready to talk again. Besides I almost let satan win before, I sure can't imagine letting him defeat me in this manner. I understand more than you think about what was happening today and someday maybe we'll get to share a cup of coffee and discuss it face to face..if not, I wonder if there will be coffee in heaven? It is my favorite drink..hehe

God Bless your heart David from New Bern. :thumbsup:

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