How can a God of love allow stoning as a death penalty ?

[EricH]

If you put no limits on God's ability, do you have any idea why he would not give us more evidence of his existence other than a book that is interpreted in so many different ways? For example, why not proof in the form of answers to prayers in which someone's amputated limb is restored?

This is talked about in the Bible (the question of why God doen't put on a show for us)

For indeed Jews ask for signs, and Greeks search for wisdom; but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block, and to Gentiles foolishness, but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

1 Corinthians 1:22-24 NASB

The request you are making is nothing new. Some want miraculous signs to validate an experience of God, others want other-worldly wisdom. But God has chosen not to use either of these methods to reveal Himself. Rather He has chosen to reveal himself in His Son, and the news that relationship with God is available to those who will believe. That is where God's power and Wisdom is most clearly demonstrated. We need to make our decisions based on that alone.

In the book of Daniel, two of Daniel's friends were arrested for refusing to fall down and worship an image of King Nebuchadnezzar. Nebuchadnezzar offered them an out, if they would just obey the order in his seeing. His final statement was that no one could deliver then from the fire he was going to place them into. Here is how they responded:

Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego answered and said to the king, "O Nebuchadnezzar, we do not need to give you an answer concerning this matter. If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the furnace of blazing fire; and He will deliver us out of your hand, O king. But even if He does not, let it be known to you, O king, that we are not going to serve your gods or worship the golden image that you have set up."

Daniel 3:16-18 NASB

That is the kind of faith God wants. Not faith that is dependent on the latest miracle. But rather one that trusts in God's character regardless of the circumstances. Whether God resued them or not, their faith did not waver in His goodness or ability to save

The problem with God going on a road show, is it will never be enough. We see over and over in the Bible, how God would perform miracles, and people would attempt to explain them away, or forget them a short time afterwards and ask for bigger and better.

Read Hebrews 11. There were some who received spectacular miracles and some did not. here is what the text says about those who did not and believed anyway:

and others experienced mockings and scourgings, yes, also chains and imprisonment. They were stoned, they were sawn in two, they were tempted, they were put to death with the sword; they went about in sheepskins, in goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, ill-treated (men of whom the world was not worthy), wandering in deserts and mountains and caves and holes in the ground. And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they should not be made perfect.

Hebrews 11:36-40 NASB

[pointer]

I do believe the Bible litterally from cover to cover - Genesis to Revelation, that it is the word of God a divine revelation of Himself to man. I have found it to be axiomatic = "self-evident" and not needing proof. You see Sylvan the burden of proof is on you. I live by faith.

This response is to LNJ and Fool-4-Christ.

I think we can agree that faith does not equal fact. Establishing something as fact is not easy. The Bible contains many extraordinary claims that, in the absence of extraordinary evidence, can only be believed on faith. I understand that this faith may be real for you. It is still faith.

I also have faith. However, my faith is that the Bible is not inerrant and that 950-year-old men and talking snakes (among other extraordinary claims) did not exist. I have faith that there isn't a God who is going to create a world in which people who don't "think" a certain way will perish in hell for eternity.

Therefore, you can say that your faith is legitimate. That's fine; it may be legitimate for you. However, I can also say that my faith is legitimate.

Indeed it is, in one sense, at least. There is not a single statement in the Bible that anyone can prove to be undoubtedly valid or 'true'. But you surely should ensure that your faith is based on a proper foundation. There are very many who believe in talking snakes and 950 year old men as much as you do, but have faith nevertheless.

[tah]

Faith means you believe something you do not see....

If I do not believe in Jesus He could be standing right in front of me and I would not know it unless I believed in Him...Many did not believe in Him when He walked this earth...

How much more evidence could you have than the person Himself??

Perhaps God has a purpose in my having one arm...

The only one who knows those kind of answers may well be God..

Joni Erickson (sp)said her broken neck saved her ...

She has nothing but praise to God ...

If God had wanted an amputated arm restored He is well able to do it..

Mat 3:9".......for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham."

I seem to be staying in the same Scriptures today..

[EricH]

Do you want to see the power of God in action? Here is a note I received this morning from a couple in our church. The wife has leukemia. She has gone through the painful process of bone marrow transplant only to have the cancer return. Now they are looking at more treatments and pain. Here is what they say:

Though we are currently enduring some of the pain and discomfort that many experience here on earth, we want to assure everyone that our faith is strong and focused on God our savior. We have no idea how this will turn out, but then again none of us can see into the future. We firmly believe that through all of this God will use this to glorify his name and that in the end a greater good will be achieved.

That is faith. That is the miracle. These dear people, who are facing an unknown, see God's goodness even in this. You want to see a miracle. Look here my friend. God is at work to give courage, where none seems possible. People are looking beyond their own comfort and lives in the hope that God will use them to achieve something lasting for His kingdom. That is the miracle. If you have eyes to see it

[billie]

just a question-why would unbelievers who aren't interested in in God or didn't want to be convinced of Him post on these boards? before i got saved, this would've been the last place i would've been

[sylvan3]

Do you want to see the power of God in action? Here is a note I received this morning from a couple in our church. The wife has leukemia. She has gone through the painful process of bone marrow transplant only to have the cancer return. Now they are looking at more treatments and pain. Here is what they say:

Though we are currently enduring some of the pain and discomfort that many experience here on earth, we want to assure everyone that our faith is strong and focused on God our savior. We have no idea how this will turn out, but then again none of us can see into the future. We firmly believe that through all of this God will use this to glorify his name and that in the end a greater good will be achieved.

That is faith. That is the miracle. These dear people, who are facing an unknown, see God's goodness even in this. You want to see a miracle. Look here my friend. God is at work to give courage, where none seems possible. People are looking beyond their own comfort and lives in the hope that God will use them to achieve something lasting for His kingdom. That is the miracle. If you have eyes to see it

You would not find me arguing against a powerful, positive message. I am happy to hear that these people have a positive outlook. I can only hope for the best for them and anyone else in that position.

My problem, however, is that faith is also required to believe in hell, where people will allegedly go because they don't "think" a certain way. I don't have that faith.

[sylvan3]

just a question-why would unbelievers who aren't interested in in God or didn't want to be convinced of Him post on these boards? before i got saved, this would've been the last place i would've been

I'm philosophically oriented. I like hearing about what others think and believe. I don't try to change people's beliefs, either. I have good questions, though, that Christians should want to answer. I'm interested in those answers, and I appreciate most of the ones that I have received.

[pointer]

Do you want to see the power of God in action? Here is a note I received this morning from a couple in our church. The wife has leukemia. She has gone through the painful process of bone marrow transplant only to have the cancer return. Now they are looking at more treatments and pain. Here is what they say:

Though we are currently enduring some of the pain and discomfort that many experience here on earth, we want to assure everyone that our faith is strong and focused on God our savior. We have no idea how this will turn out, but then again none of us can see into the future. We firmly believe that through all of this God will use this to glorify his name and that in the end a greater good will be achieved.

That is faith. That is the miracle. These dear people, who are facing an unknown, see God's goodness even in this. You want to see a miracle. Look here my friend. God is at work to give courage, where non seems possible. People are looking beyond their ownd comfort and lives to hope God will use them to achieve something lasting for His kingdom. That is the miracle. If you have eyes to see it

With respect, that is not a miracle, Eric. The sceptic can easily say that this is just wishful thinking, and probably will. There will be a miracle if this dear lady is miraculously healed, yes.

You are imv right, though, to cite personal experience as evidence for the truth of the gospel rather than cite the truth of the Bible. The Bible is for those who have a Master, who recognise His Voice, not really for those who are not yet born again of the Spirit. The internet is a poor means of providing personal experience, though; almost anything can be invented, and almost anything claimed (I'm not suggesting for a moment that you are inventing). To appreciate the fruits of the Spirit, self-control, patience, readiness to forgive, kindness, peaceableness, one needs to know a born again person in the flesh, to know that there is more than just words involved. That is the way in which many are converted, even people who have read the Bible quite a lot.

[EricH]

With respect, that is not a miracle, Eric. The sceptic can easily say that this is just wishful thinking, and probably will. There will be a miracle if this dear lady is miraculously healed, yes.

A changed life is indeed a miracle whether a skeptic realizes it or not. But you are correct that it is not demonstration of God's suspending the normal process of life to achieve a result. Non-the-less it is a miraculous change of heart and attitude

[pointer]

With respect, that is not a miracle, Eric. The sceptic can easily say that this is just wishful thinking, and probably will. There will be a miracle if this dear lady is miraculously healed, yes.

A changed life is indeed a miracle whether a skeptic realizes it or not. But you are correct that it is not demonstration of God's suspending the normal process of life to achieve a result. Non-the-less it is a miraculous change of heart and attitude

But is it even a change of heart? People can want to believe many things, for a variety of motives. Millions go to Lourdes or to Hindu shrines believing that miracles will occur, but is that faith justified? Do you know the real motives of these particular people? Can you show to a sceptic in Apologetics that it is not wishful thinking that they have?

It is of course very possible that the faith of these people is genuine, but I don't think that in serious conversation it is a good idea to use the word miracle too loosely, and certainly not when it is applied to faith. One cannot understand a miracle, or it would not be a miracle. Some friends of mine have a teenage son who was transformed overnight from an indolent, surly, troublesome person into a pleasant and helpful one. They with a little humour called that a 'miracle', but they well understood what had happened to their son in conversion, which is a well-defined change of mental state with cause and effect. It is a change that Christians and non-Christians need to consider more closely than often they do, imv, and labelling it a miracle is unlikely to help, I think.