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Do You Believe in "Once Saved, Always Saved"


Guest ROBERT WELLS

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Hosea was not forced to come back to God as nowhere in scripture do you find Hosea was out of God's will scripture show to us that Hosea was obedient to the voice of God in his life and did what God told him to do how he told him to do it. For it was the nation of Israel as a whole that had turned it's back on God and went a whoring on God playing the harlot and being unfaithful to God in the relationship and not Hosea.

Um...nowhere did any of us suggest it was Hosea who was rebelling. We've repeatedly said it was GOMER (who represented Israel). This changes things drastically. You're viewing it from the wrong paradigm. I'd suggest you re-read it, as you didn't even approach the story in the right context. ;)

This is the direct quote that was given back in Post # 1181 where it was suggested.

Hosea (as a representation of God) forced Hosea to come back to him (as a representation of Israel).

I think your words betray you here in my interpretation of them. I think I'll stick to my wrong paradigm for now and suggest you re-read a might as well.

OC

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:thumbsup: I BET HALF THE PEOPLE WHO RESPOND TO THIS QUESTION DONT REALLY KNOW THE ANSWER DO THEY? :blink:
Edited by Rediscovering God
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:24: I BET HALF THE PEOPLE WHO RESPOND TO THIS QUESTION DONT REALLY KNOW THE ANSWER DO THEY? :24:

I was just reading in Hebrews today and was surprised to read something scarey in chapter 6, verse 4-6. "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame." I am from a Mormon background, but am rediscovering God and so it may not be true, but this does appear to suggest that we can lose our salvation if we do it to ourselves. Does it not?

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:24: I BET HALF THE PEOPLE WHO RESPOND TO THIS QUESTION DONT REALLY KNOW THE ANSWER DO THEY? :24:

I was just reading in Hebrews today and was surprised to read something scarey in chapter 6, verse 4-6. "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame." I am from a Mormon background, but am rediscovering God and so it may not be true, but this does appear to suggest that we can lose our salvation if we do it to ourselves. Does it not?

No the author is talking to the christian jews who were thinking they could just go back to judaism. It is directed at them specifically.

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oc--I think sometimes someone ignorant and unlearned can come along and speak with authority as the disciples did as they had been with Jesus. The gospel was not just to the educated as we have the Holy Spirit to lead us into all truth. Somethings needs to be tossed out the window in my opinion.

AK--All of them, however, became educated after being with Christ. The fact is, when someone who has well studied disagrees with someone who isn't studied at all in scripture on the matter of interpretation, the former is inevitably going to trump the latter. The Holy Spirit operates through our soul and MIND. If your mind is mush, if you haven't worked on it, then there isn't much there for Him to work with, now is there?

Yes, that is what I just said, being with Christ can make one smart beyond text books. As far as your other analogy goes it just depends on which one is the smartest in whom trumps who.

oc--No where in the scriptures do I find where Jonah denied God. J

AK--So you separate sin/rebellion and denying God? They are the same thing.

I am saying that Jonah did not go and publicly deny that God was God and that he no longer believed in Him. As that is the way I took you to mean so that is why I said what I did in that regards. I do seperate sin, rebellion and denying God as they are three seperate things which all may lead to the same results in the end but they are seperate things from one another.

Sin is wilful transgression against God.

Rebellion is not listening to what God says to you personally

Denying God is an outward act one does wanting nothing to do with God like apostle Peter did when they arrested Jesus three times before the cock crew he denied knowing the Lord Jesus Christ publicly. As they are three different things.

God however never forced Jonah to go back as Jonah came to the realization of what God was trying to do through his life and when Jonah learned what it was it was at that time he chose to obey God and do what God wanted done and that was that the salvation message be proclaimed to the Gentile nations so that His glory would be in all the earth as a result.

So God didn't coerce Jonah at all? Really?

In my opinion God did not coerce Jonah at all. But God used Jonah's situation knowing what he would do and gave Jonah as a sign to the nation of Israel in how that He Himself was going to turn to the Gentile nations so that His glory would fill all of the earth at their rejection of the Messiah as this was a sign the only sign that was given. God did teach Jonah however His divine will and purpose through it all.

Hosea was not forced to come back to God as nowhere in scripture do you find Hosea was out of God's will scripture show to us that Hosea was obedient to the voice of God in his life and did what God told him to do how he told him to do it.

Really? Are you serious?

Hosea 2:15 - Therefore, behold, I will allure her,

Bring her into the wilderness

And speak kindly to her.

Hosea 2:6 Therefore, behold, I will hedge up her way with thorns,

And I will build a wall against her so that she cannot find her paths.

Both of these give the imagry of Him FORCING Israel/Gomer to return to Him, they have no choice in the matter.

Yes, really I am serious. The scriptures you provide are to the nation of Israel to return as the prophet of God was true in his relationship with God and God used Hosea to speak unto his people. Hosea did not go astray as you are suggesting but the nation of Israel however did. Notice the "HER" in the scriptural text provided by you. It wasn't Hosea for He was being used by God as God's voice during that time period as Israel straying from God as thus Gomer did from Hosea's marriage.

There was no force. There is no force in "alluring" there is no force in "speaking kindly" there is chastisement from God in hopes they will repent and return on their own seeing the error of their ways but no force it is all up to them to return freely of their own choice or not. Even after chastisement from God one is not forced by God to return never.

You can read of such an instance in the book of

Numbers 14:34--latter part of that verse God Himself says, "and ye shall know my "breach" of promise."

as that generation died in the wilderness and God took their children to the promised land after that 40 years was up and they was all dead. God never forced them back but let em die in unbelief for breaking their covenant with God as they went a whoring on God. So God broke his covenant with them and disinherited that entire generation as a result never forcing them to repentance or coming back to him as it was to late. IT DID OCCUR.

Really? So Israel never took the Promised Land? Because, if they didn't, you'd be correct. If, however, they did, your point no longer counts considering that the covenant was made with Israel and that covenant was fulfilled...God killed those who would not follow, but He did not remove Israel from His covenant with them.

Yes, really those that were 20 years old and upward did not take the Promise land. As they wandered for 40 years and died never recieving the promises of entering into the promised land there carcases were left in the wilderness. So I am correct. My point does stand as that entire older generation was cut off and did not inherit. The generation that died in the wilderness was included in the covenant and said they would obey God and do as He said do but they disobeyed and broke the covenant with God and went astray in unbelief and was cut off because of it as God did not honor His end of the covenant with that generation and waited till that entire generation died off as they never entered the promised land. God removed that generation because of unbelief.

He did not remove those who believed in God as there was Joshua and Caleb the only two of the spies who believed the good report that they could take the land. The others however did not believe and died in it in the wilderness and God took their children and let them take and inherit the land instead. As if one doesn't want to believe God will find another to take their place.

OC

IF i remember correctly his covenant was to lead them to the promised land. He did that. They could see it. It didn't however say that that generation would take the promised land. That commandement was given at the river and was not followed. His covenant was fulfilled. He never promised moses that he would enter the promised land.

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:24: I BET HALF THE PEOPLE WHO RESPOND TO THIS QUESTION DONT REALLY KNOW THE ANSWER DO THEY? :24:

I was just reading in Hebrews today and was surprised to read something scarey in chapter 6, verse 4-6. "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame." I am from a Mormon background, but am rediscovering God and so it may not be true, but this does appear to suggest that we can lose our salvation if we do it to ourselves. Does it not?

Shalom!!

First off... praise the L-rd that you came out of Mormonism and found the true G-d!

Secondly, yes, this means exactly what it says...we CAN walk away from our salvation and harden our hearts to reject Jesus and receive eternal damnation.

However, if we keep ourselves close to Jesus, walk in His Spirit and not harden our hearts, we need not fear, He will help us abide in Him and walk out our salvation unto eternal life.

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How much of the New Testament can we say was only directed at and/or for other people? If we do this to much then there isn't very much to apply to us.

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

According to this verse ALL scripture is given for doctrine, reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. This would include Hebrews also.

Those scriptures in Hebrews is talking about those who fall away. It doesn't matter where they fall away to, just the fact that they left the grace of Christ.

Shalom CC,

Exactly!! These Scriptures apply to each of us today as much as it did to early Messianic Jews. The point is, they were being warned about falling away from the faith of Messiah. That clearly proves that a Believer CAN fall away.

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This may have already been said.....But yes I do believe once saved always saved. God does not walk away from you, but you from god, when if and when you return to him he is there with open arms. when you return to the lord you just begin your walk again, but with repentance.

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How much of the New Testament can we say was only directed at and/or for other people? If we do this to much then there isn't very much to apply to us.

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

According to this verse ALL scripture is given for doctrine, reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. This would include Hebrews also.

Those scriptures in Hebrews is talking about those who fall away. It doesn't matter where they fall away to, just the fact that they left the grace of Christ.

Shalom CC,

Exactly!! These Scriptures apply to each of us today as much as it did to early Messianic Jews. The point is, they were being warned about falling away from the faith of Messiah. That clearly proves that a Believer CAN fall away.

:blink:

oc

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1) History and context is great, but you havn't shown any. I on the other hand, as well as Cardcaptor and others, used exegesis and context by using other parts of the bible.

Tom, you don't even know what exegesis is, what it means, what it consists of, etc (you acknowledged this earlier). So please, don't try to offer it up as a justification.

Secondly, how have I not used the context and the history of the book? On both passages I explained why Paul was writing the book, the climate at the time, and the surrounding verses to draw out the interpretation. Justify your claims...this isn't a school yard, this isn't kindergarten, we can't just sit around and say "Nu uh" and expect people to accept it as a valid argument. Put some meat behind what you're saying (i.e. quote my responses on the passages and show where I failed to give the history and context).

2) you are correct that jonah denied Gods calling, but God didn't force him. He certainly coerced him, or persuaded him, but the choice was Jonah's. God works with big consequences for big responsabilities.

Shoving a person into a situation where they have no choice but to accept you is called coercion Tom.

3) If I'm not mistaken....I think God allowed Satan to walk away. And, oh....a third of the Agnels too...and I think that there might be a few hundred warnings to us about falling away.

Give me a scripture that:

1) Shows they are anthropological in their ontology

2) That they carry with them the imago Dei

3) That they were in a covenant with God to begin with

Why warn about it if there is no danger?

and,

If you think that those warnings weren't for believers, I'd like you to show me one.

We are never warned that we could fall away from God, that we could reject Him. The reason for the warnings have to do with relationship. In a covenant with God, if you neglect the relationship, life gets extremely difficult because He begins to remove protection (happiness, grace, etc) from you.

Hey...I looked up the term exegetical and posted earlier its definition. I have been using the bible for my exegesis, but you won't tackle what the rest of the bible says.

and if you noticed above....I did say that God used coercion. Do you just like to argue?

I can coerce my son to obey me by spanking him or removing privilages, but if he is too bull headed then that might not work.

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