Mark of the Beast

[kenod]

CJ, as I see it, we are already forced to accept substantial infringement of our personal liberty, for the sake of convenience or complying with the law. An electronic chip in itself is of no consequence. What it represents must be more than just curtailment of personal freedom. It would need to have a spiritual significance that amounts to worship. The "mark" must in some way pertain to our faith - what we believe about God.

Rev 14:9-10

And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man

worship

the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God

Good point, I actually hadn't correctly read that part...*sigh* it is always when we read to0 fast that we lose the scope of the text. It is interesting that it is through worship that they receive the mark...I'll have to take some time to relook at this more carefully.

Thanks Kenod.

CJ, here are a few points to summarise some of the things that occur to me concerning the "mark":

1. The mark is related to a form of

[kenod]

I am courios. Doesn't anyone believe that the church will be gone at the time of anyone being forced to having the mark of the beast, or a chip implant being mandated for them to " buy or sell"????

Very good point. Personally, I do believe that believers will be "caught up" before the Tribulation. I am trusting God that I will be a part of that .... but I know that not everyone will be. If we believe we are going in the Rapture, should we not still be concerned about those who are "left behind"?

[buckthesystem]

Quote, Kenod: "Why would you personally object to a microchip implant?"

I guess I'll answer this question first: I'm surprised that you would even raise this question. A subdermal microchip implant has the most horrible "big brother" connotations, it is the ultimate in control and to agree to have a microchip implant you would have to trust the government or company controlling the "chip" 100%. I just don't trust ANYONE on this earth that much, and nor should anyone else. An implantable microchip leaves the recipient open to a myriad of abuses. It is so easy to agree to have a microchip implant for one reason and yet find out (or not as the case may be) that you are subject to a number of controls and surveillance. I would not even have a microchip implant for "medical" reasons (say to control the doses of a drug) because I believe I should be the only one to have control over my own body - me and Christ of course, that is. Christ didn't give us these bodies so we could hand control of them over to bureaucrats. We are not robots to be reprogrammed at the whim of somebody else, and it is nobody's business what I do, or where I go. I don't like to be manhandled in any way, I don't even like the demand to wear a seat belt in my own car.

Most people (I like to think anyway) would object to a microchip implant purely on principle, because it is "creepy". Christ can surveille us as much as he likes - that is his business, he doesn't even need a microchip or a CCTV camera, or number plate recognition technology - he is omnipresent.

Somebody in this thread (can't be bothered going back to find out who) said that the MOB

[buckthesystem]

I'm sorry, I don't know how that happened, I just looked up and it was posted. I guess I must have pressed the wrong button. It is really late, that is a good excuse. I wasn't quite finished, so will continue.....

(said that the MOB...) must be a physical mark (i.e. the subdermal RFID microchip) because if it was entirely spiritual, there would be no way of preventing or enabling anybody to buy or sell.

However, I can see a time when a "one-world currency" will be adopted. The Euro is already in existance, the Amero (N. American, Mexican & Canadian currency) has been talked about. So all it would take is for one of them to dominate, usurping the other and a lot of other countries would be forced to comply and adopt it also, or lose their trade. People seem to have trouble in imagining an entire world where everybody is microchipped. A lot of Americans are already, and to get the others we would only have to marginalise groups of people (prisoners, Alzheimers sufferers, children, elderly people in general, certain occupations, parolees, soldiers, military in general etc.) and keep adding to and enlarging these groups until eventually all newborn babies are automatically "chipped" for "identity" purposes or "to stop them being discharged to the wrong parents" or "to prevent them from being kidnapped". And in Europe and UK, they have practically reached that stage already.

Once 60 or 70 percent of the population has a "chip" and it is demonstrated how easy it is to buy and sell using the chip, just about all the rest would soon "flock" to get their "chips" too.

The only people who would not be affected by this sort of thing would be those who truly lived in primitive places where money is not a big issue anyway.

I believe the "worship" part comes in because "those who have the micrichip would be bowing down to a false idol and worshipping the beast" - money!

The only part of this theory that doesn't "pan out" is that Rev. indicates that the MOB will be entirely voluntary. But how could it be voluntary if you are "chipped" against your will (as a prisoner - physically forced, or a mentally handicapped person, or a newborn baby)?

Somebody, help me out here? Perhaps we need to come up with another theory?

As for the Church. To be honest, I think they'll be just as divided (in opinion) and confused as everybody else, as well.

How can we agree to reject the MOB when we can't even agree on what it is?

[Guest man]

What exactly did Jesus look like?

My point exactly.

The bible tells us that Christ is the image of God and that no one has seen God, but just about everyone on this planet can give you a physical description of what Christ looks like. Non-believers included.

Everyone believes He has long shoulder length hair. The bible tells us He didn't.

I believe it's important to know this one simple fact. I think Paul believed it also, otherwise why would he even mention it.

Isn't it odd that the bible teaches that Christ didn't have long hair, but in every image we see Him depicted with long hair. That image is a lie and I believe that image will play a big part in the end times.

When the "abomination of desolation" spoken of by Daniel steps into the limelight, I believe he will bear a striking resemblence to that image of Christ that everyone knows.

[Guest man]

The only people who would not be affected by this sort of thing would be those who truly lived in primitive places where money is not a big issue anyway.

One of the reasons I believe this "chip" is not the mark of the beast.

[Guest man]

Somebody, help me out here? Perhaps we need to come up with another theory?

You're looking at the physical when it is the spiritual that needs to be addressed.

Everything that involves God is Spiritual. Therefore I believe the "mark" will be a spiritual mark.

God said that he who endures onto the end will be saved.

God knows the heart of man and it stands to reason that He would know who is following the beast and not Him. He will mark those who follow the beast. It won't be a physical mark that is visible to the eye, but a spiritual mark that is visible to the reapers.

In order the buy and sell, one must worship or declare allegience to the beast and once this is done, that individual is marked and counted with the tares.

[buckthesystem]

Somebody, help me out here? Perhaps we need to come up with another theory?

You're looking at the physical when it is the spiritual that needs to be addressed.

Everything that involves God is Spiritual. Therefore I believe the "mark" will be a spiritual mark.

God said that he who endures onto the end will be saved.

God knows the heart of man and it stands to reason that He would know who is following the beast and not Him. He will mark those who follow the beast. It won't be a physical mark that is visible to the eye, but a spiritual mark that is visible to the reapers.

In order the buy and sell, one must worship or declare allegience to the beast and once this is done, that individual is marked and counted with the tares.

Then if that is the case, how do you suppose those who don't swear allegience to the beast will be prevented from buying or selling?

Are you thinking of a scenario whereby someone has to produce proof of their membership of the "I worship the beast" society (or something like that) in order to have access to their bank account, get paid, operate a business, sell something or buy groceries?

Or perhaps those who refuse to attend a attend a ceremony confirming them in the "church of the beast" (or what ever it might be called) would be "outcasts" and refused permission to operate in society

(If the second option is the case, then what is to prevent them forming their own society and trading within it?)

[kenod]

Most people (I like to think anyway) would object to a microchip implant purely on principle, because it is "creepy".

Perhaps I'd better throw away my pacemmaker

The reason I asked why you would object to a microchip, is that there may be any number of reasons. To me, it seems a little late to object on the grounds of personal surveillance ... the tax man knows more about me than my wife does!

As a Christian, I am willing to abide by any law that does not require me to behave in a way that directly contravenes my faith.

I believe the "mark of the beast" will require you to accept (either from conviction or convenience) teaching contrary to the Word of God. That is why I continue to maintain: look for the spiritual significance.

I respect those Episcopal (Anglican) congregations who recently separated from their denomination, because to continue to be a part of that system, they would be giving their support to false doctrine (homosexuality, etc). Their ability to "buy and sell" has been greatly impaired.

William Branham, whom many regard as a prophet (as I do) said that there will come a time when an ecumenical union will control the Protestant churches in the US (Rev 13:11-18). He called this the "image of the beast" To be a part of a church that joins the union for the sake of being able to "buy and sell", will mean you must accept teaching contrary to the Word of God. In agreeing to this doctrine, you will take the "mark of the beast".

Whether one agrees or not ... just keep your eyes open!

[kenod]

Rev 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

It is rather dificult to imagine that "no man" refers to every one of the 6.5 billion people on earth.

The Revelation describes a spiritual conflict. I believe that the loss of the ability to "buy or sell" will pertain to those churches and groups who are adhering to the true Word of God. If a church is not given official recognition as an organisation, it will no longer be able to function.

This situation occurs in China today, where only churches recognized by the government are permitted to operate. There are many who refuse to submit to these restrictions, and operate as small house churches. On numerous occasions this has resulted in persecution - interrogation (torture) and imprisonment, and even death.