Mark of the Beast

[buckthesystem]

Rev 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

It is rather dificult to imagine that "no man" refers to every one of the 6.5 billion people on earth.

The Revelation describes a spiritual conflict. I believe that the loss of the ability to "buy or sell" will pertain to those churches and groups who are adhering to the true Word of God. If a church is not given official recognition as an organisation, it will no longer be able to function.

This situation occurs in China today, where only churches recognized by the government are permitted to operate. There are many who refuse to submit to these restrictions, and operate as small house churches. On numerous occasions this has resulted in persecution - interrogation (torture) and imprisonment, and even death.

So those members, in China, of "underground" churches not recognised by the government, may be persecuted if caught, but while they are operating their small house-group church they are not prevented from buying and selling.

A church that is not given official recognition as an organisation may well be unable to function, but its members can still buy and sell.

The only way that that could be achieved is with legislation and technology.

[kenod]

In any case, the mark will have a characteristic that will allow both the believer and unbeliever to distinguish themselves from each other. So it is in no way a spiritual mark, the means by which one will accept that mark will probably be spiritual, a ceremony of some sort, but the mark in itself will be physically applied just based on the term "mark" being used in the context that it has been written in scripture. The term defines a physical action by which a person will receive an physical indication of a sign or token.

The term and manner of how the verse implies it, is physical. The act of worship is towards the beast not the mark, it is the beast that will be worshipped not the mark.

CJ

That legislation and technology will be used in implementing the goals of the "beast" and his "image", is most likely.

Multitudes will be trapped in the beast's schemes, but since the devil is the source of his power, his main target will be those who remain faithful to God.

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The context of The Revelation, from start to finish, is highly symbolic. Virtually nothing in the book is literal. If the "beast" is not a literal wild animal, it seems unlikely to me that the "mark" is a literal, physical mark.

I believe the mark, in embryonic form, is already here.

Edited December 23, 2006 by kenod

[kenod]

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall

worship

him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

If the "beast" is a man, what form will this "worship" take?

Can we imagine in this day and age, people actually worshipping this man as a divine god?

It seems to me that this worship will be of a more subtle kind. Perhaps as in the expression: "It is wrong to worship money". By that we mean giving money a place in our lives it should not have - in other words, putting it before the things of God.

Will he have such an appealing proposition that most will be prepared to accept what he says even though it is contrary to the Word of God? Or perhaps it will be so deceptive, that many will not even recognize that it is contrary to the Word of God.

Edited December 23, 2006 by kenod

[Adarian]

Just some ideas, and a few different takes on what all of you have said already. I wanted to comment on a few of the things you all said in different posts, so I will just start again:

Quote, Kenod: " think it is clear from these and other indications, that the city is the Vatican, and the beast is papal succession. Some Popes have been notably good (JP11), but there have also been those who were corrupt and debauched. In the future, I believe such a man will gain control of the papacy".

This is certainly possible, but what about the EU? It seems logical to me that "a continuation of the old Roman empire" is the EU, and the EU fits the bill for everything else. "The city" would be the Hague in the Netherlands. The "Beast", possibly, has yet to emerge and could be an (as yet) up and coming European politician or bureaucrat. The lust for power is already there, in the form of the EU's desire to "control the world" through the international criminal court and the UN. UN headquarters might be in NY, but that doesn't mean that is in any way an American organisation. I believe that "the Harlot" is a one-world-religion (formed using the "popular" - in Europe anyway - idea of being "inclusive" and "blending" several beliefs together, even if they have nothing to do with traditional Christianity, and of course, leaving out the resurrection of Jesus). I know this is assuming a lot, but I can see it happening quite easily and a lot of people being fooled into believing in it.

I agree it is very possible that EU countries could be involved. That may be the meaning of the "ten kings"

Rev 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

Nevertheless, we are told "the beast" is a man, and given a number of ways to identify him. In a future world devastated by nuclear terrorism, climate change, a flu pandemic, and economic chaos, a man will emerge with great charismatic leadership qualities. By adding up all the Scriptural references to the beast, I believe that it points to a pope.

There has been a couple of comments on the RFID implantable chip and its location. So here's another reason for "the chip" to be in the right hand or the forehead. I will quote from an article by Dr Carl Sanders, one of the inventors of the original microchip: " This microchip is recharged by body temperature changes. Obviously you can't go in and have your battery changed every so often, so the microchip has a recharging circuit that charges based upon the body temperature changes. Over one and a half million dollars was spent finding out that the two places in the body that the temperature changes the most rapidly are in the forehead (primary position), right below the hairline, and the back of the hand (alternative position). "

Why would you personally object to a microchip implant?

I believe that The Revelation is describing a spiritual conflict. It will necessarily involve political and economic forces in its working out. At some stage, I see that all churches will be required to be registered to gain official recognition. Of course, that already happens within denominations. You must agree to that church's creed or you will be denied access to the resources of that denomination.

In another discussion forum, which claims to be the largest Christian discussion forum on the web, the rules state that I will not be recognized as a Christian unless I am willing to accept the Nicene creed. I cannot, so I do not participate.

The danger I see in focusing on a physical "mark of the beast' is that we could overlook the spiritual significance of what is happening.

Kenod, hi, I feel a need to cut in here and toss my two bits into the pot. There are many who feel the Vatican/RC church is the beast and or the mother of harlots.

This is why I use the KJV, because of the symbolic consistency throughout it. Where the NIV and others call the city as sitting on seven hills, the KJV reads "seven mountains".

In the KJV, mountains represent nations in this context and therefore this city Babylon the Great is headed by seven nations and is not a literal city like Rome. She is an Engine of economic and substantial gain. Babylon the Great is every endeavor and undertaking of men wherein God is not credited and acknowledged. Her seven heads are seven nations, not seven hills, nor is the harlot any religious group. She is not at all associated with God, which is why she is called a harlot. To lust after the things of the world and not honor God for them or seek Him for them is spiritual harlotry.

(in other examples of symbolic consistency in the KJV, the word dragon always refers to a serpent, stars in the symbolic sense always refer to angels, and the waters on which the woman sitteth are peoples, nations, multitudes, and tongues, or in other words, the whole world.)

I believe the greek word for "mark" means a literal mark, be it a tattoo or a chip, that is a mark of ownership like a brand on livestock. To receive it willingly is the same thing as granting ownership of your person to the owner of the mark. All takers become the property of the state, and after that the property of the antichrist when he makes it mandatory. God is a jealous God, so ergo, the mark of the beast is a certain passage to hell, do not pass go, do not collect 200 shekels of silver.

[buckthesystem]

Most people (I like to think anyway) would object to a microchip implant purely on principle, because it is "creepy".

Perhaps I'd better throw away my pacemmaker

The reason I asked why you would object to a microchip, is that there may be any number of reasons. To me, it seems a little late to object on the grounds of personal surveillance ... the tax man knows more about me than my wife does!

As a Christian, I am willing to abide by any law that does not require me to behave in a way that directly contravenes my faith.

I believe the "mark of the beast" will require you to accept (either from conviction or convenience) teaching contrary to the Word of God. That is why I continue to maintain: look for the spiritual significance.

I respect those Episcopal (Anglican) congregations who recently separated from their denomination, because to continue to be a part of that system, they would be giving their support to false doctrine (homosexuality, etc). Their ability to "buy and sell" has been greatly impaired.

William Branham, whom many regard as a prophet (as I do) said that there will come a time when an ecumenical union will control the Protestant churches in the US (Rev 13:11-18). He called this the "image of the beast" To be a part of a church that joins the union for the sake of being able to "buy and sell", will mean you must accept teaching contrary to the Word of God. In agreeing to this doctrine, you will take the "mark of the beast".

Whether one agrees or not ... just keep your eyes open!

Your statement: "Perhaps I'd better throw away my pacemmaker "

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A pacemaker doesn't have the ability to track and trace your every move or control your behaviour. So unless you are the victim of a "Taser stun gun" or an "electo magnetic pulse weapon" your pacemaker is fine.

And: "The reason I asked why you would object to a microchip, is that there may be any number of reasons. To me, it seems a little late to object on the grounds of personal surveillance ... the tax man knows more about me than my wife does!"

--------------------------------------------

Well the taxman only knows your financial affairs, that has never been important to me. Although I guess in reality you are "a slave to the taxman" you do not need, or seek, his permission or blessing to do anything. And the IRD (or whatever it is in Aussie) only have the personal information that you give them.

And: "As a Christian, I am willing to abide by any law that does not require me to behave in a way that directly contravenes my faith."

-------------------------------------------

I believe that a lot of laws require us to behave in a way that contravene our faith, it is very subtle in most cases. We should always strictly put God at the top of everything and then our own families. The Bible tells us how to behave, so strictly speaking "the law" is superfluous. That is, of course, just my opinion.

I still don't get how swearing allegience to a particular doctrine would enable you to buy and sell and others who do not swear that allegience will be barred from buying and selling.

[other one]

<B>

Rev 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

</B>

It is rather dificult to imagine that "no man" refers to every one of the 6.5 billion people on earth.

The Revelation describes a spiritual conflict. I believe that the loss of the ability to "buy or sell" will pertain to those churches and groups who are adhering to the true Word of God. If a church is not given official recognition as an organisation, it will no longer be able to function.

This situation occurs in China today, where only churches recognized by the government are permitted to operate. There are many who refuse to submit to these restrictions, and operate as small house churches. On numerous occasions this has resulted in persecution - interrogation (torture) and imprisonment, and even death.

By the time the war is over that it is given to overcome the saints, and the technology that is prevalent today, I doubt very seriously that anywhere near 6 billion people will stil be alive.

[Guest man]

Can we imagine in this day and age, people actually worshipping this man as a divine god?

Will he have such an appealing proposition that most will be prepared to accept what he says even though it is contrary to the Word of God? Or perhaps it will be so deceptive, that many will not even recognize that it is contrary to the Word of God.

2 Thess. 2:3-4 Let no one deceive you by any means, for that day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshipped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

The deception comes like this...

2 Thess. 2:11 And for this reason, God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie.

[kenod]

Hi Adrian,

There are many who feel the Vatican/RC church is the beast and or the mother of harlots. This is why I use the KJV, because of the symbolic consistency throughout it. Where the NIV and others call the city as sitting on seven hills, the KJV reads "seven mountains". In the KJV, mountains represent nations in this context and therefore this city Babylon the Great is headed by seven nations and is not a literal city like Rome.

I have heard that interpretation suggested before but I have difficulties with it for the following reasons:

1. It is true the The Revelation is a book of symbols. This is emphasized by the fact that in certain instances John was told what the symbols represent: dragon = the devil; seas = people; beast = a man; woman = city; heads = mountains.

2. When the interpretation is given, it is not necessary to make a further interpretation, although we then need to identify the person or object referred to.

3. The "heads" (or

[kenod]

I still don't get how swearing allegience to a particular doctrine would enable you to buy and sell and others who do not swear that allegience will be barred from buying and selling.

Rev 13:16-17

And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had

the mark

,

or

the

name of the beast

,

or

the

number of his name

.

The devil is the power behind the beast (Rev 13:2), and his main goal is to destroy those who remain true to the Word of God (Rev 12:17).

I believe the beast will be very religious (2 Thes 2), and will no doubt even quote Scripture, just like the devil did to Jesus (Mat 4:5-6). One Scripture he will probably use is Jesus' prayer that we all should be one (John 17:22).

Some will no doubt be convinced that unity is more important than doctrinal differences, and join with the beast or his image. Others will hold out for the truth and will suffer the consequences.

William Branham has said that in a future time a religious union will be given the backing of state power. All those churches who do not belong will have their ability to buy and sell curtailed. This will mean that they will no longer be able to function.

How far this will extend into the control of individuals, and what compromises one will need to make to be accepted, remains to be seen. Whatever you perceive the "mark of the beast" to be, just be sure you are ready to give your life for your beliefs ... and possibly the lives of your family.

[buckthesystem]

Quote, Christopher John: "Yes, People worshipped Kim Jones and David Koresh...David Koresh flat out said that he was in fact "Jesus Christ" and the ignorant ones who did't know scripture were deceived and killed...so why wouldn't this apply to the Antichrist whose path will be laid out by the false propet, which also amazing signs and wonders will be performed allowing the ignorant (those who do not read the word) to be deceived yet again."

Just picking you up on this. I believe that David Koresh didn't actually claim to be "Jesus Christ", it was a distortion by the media, trying to justify on behalf of the government at the time, the siege they laid to the community, and the eventual killing everybody that was there. I read that David Koresh had been accused of "impregnating a 70 year old woman" and he said in defence "if I did that, I must be God" (being sarcastic - saying that it is not usually possible to impregnate a 70 year old). And that is where the rumour started that he claimed to be God.

This is part of the propaganda that was put out trying to justify the fact that the FBI and the AFT deliberately killed all the branch Davidians. It was a ploy to get public sympathy for the FBI and for Janet Reno. To get "the government off the hook".

CJ your point is taken, but this is just a bad example.