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3 hours ago, Uriah said:

I have heard the many arguments of the pre trib teachings. Many pre trib teachers and proponents are forced to interpret/define selectively and invariably make the scriptures collide into each other with contradictions.

You are the one that is wrong on the subject.  So most of you guys duck and dodge facts. The Rapture is imminent, the Second Coming is a KNOWN TIME, it happens 1260 days EXACTLY to the day after the Beast comes to power. 

The problem is you are all misled by the very verses you cite. You twist them in your mind somehow, like Matthew 24:29-31. You say SEE this proves Jesus comes after the Tribulation, then when I say, YES...........But with the Church {See Rev. 19} I get silence, then the same verse cited again by the same person the very next day, even though they have to know that argument has been defeated.

We could school people on the Rapture scriptures every day, and the very next day you would all cite the very same scriptures. So its hopeless in essence, if you can't see it you can't see it, but that's on you and others, not on us. 

So basically, YOU DON'T HEAR, because you already have the answer, at least you think you do. Its hard to hear when one has the answer already, believe me I understand this because God told me about 5 years ago the reason I/we/Church couldn't hear his voice on the End Time Subjects like the Harlot, Revelation, Babylon etc. etc. He said, "Ron, you guys already know it all". In other words, Ron, you can't hear me because you already have all the answers.........Even though I didn't. But once I started LISTENING more carefully, I got the answers. But I had to put off OLD THINGS....Men's Traditions in order to hear.

Edited by Revelation Man
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1 hour ago, Revelation Man said:

 

Quote

the Second Coming is a KNOWN TIME, it happens 1260 days EXACTLY to the day after the Beast comes to power.

 Let's look at it in context:

 Mat 24:3-1And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Matt 24:32-Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh

Mat 24:33-So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

Mat 24:34-Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Mat 24:35-Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away

Mat 24:36-But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. Your above statement is in error

1 Thes 4:14- For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

It is the dead in Christ who are brought back with Jesus. This is when they come out of the graves. If not you would need ANOTHER rapture and resurrection at the END of the tribulation because those who resisted the mark are seen in Rev. 20 and are going to reign with Him for 1,000 yrs! And there will be martyrs through that period as well. Then the there is a resurrection AFTER the thousand years. So as I have been saying-too many resurrections (and raptures too)

 

Quote

The problem is you are all misled by the very verses you cite. You twist them in your mind somehow, like Matthew 24:29-31. You say SEE this proves Jesus comes after the Tribulation, then when I say, YES...........But with the Church {See Rev. 19} I get silence, then the same verse cited again by the same person the very next day, even though they have to know that argument has been defeated.

In Rev 19 the bride is given her new attire, NOT 7 yrs earlier! We ALL get new bodies at the same time-read Heb. 11:40.

A multitude of people in that chapter can be seen in the air shouting for joy as Jesus arrives on the white horse! THAT is the rapture!!!

 

Edited by Uriah
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30 minutes ago, Walter Goraj jr said:

That's funny that's what I was thinking of all morning.   Because I do not believe in the "millenial reign" teaching, When I read the colorfully metaphorical language in the O.T., To me it's like a poetic rendering of God's salvation and judgment in the last days or at the last day.

Feet standing upon the Mount of Olives.... bells on horses that say Holiness to the Lord.... 10 men taking hold of the skirt of a Jew.... the wolf drawing with the lamb... the child playing near  the snake hole... looking upon the carcasses of men....

Amazingly many people believe that this is what they're going to literally see their  so-called millennium...really?

 

Hi Walt,

What is your take on biblical prophecy? What happens at the second coming of Jesus?

 

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24 minutes ago, Walter Goraj jr said:

I believe when Jesus comes the second time we go right into our new life with Him into eternity. Please allow me to share /compare two verses:

" So Christ was once offered to bear the sin of many ; and unto them that look for Him shall He appear the second time without sin unto salvation."  (Hebrews 9:28)

" And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for Him, and He will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for Him, we will be glad and rejoice in His salvation." ( Isaiah 25:9)

I am patiently waiting

Ok, and what becomes of Earth?

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5 hours ago, Uriah said:

 Let's look at it in context:

 Mat 24:3-1And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Matt 24:32-Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh

Mat 24:33-So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

Mat 24:34-Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Mat 24:35-Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away

Mat 24:36-But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. Your above statement is in error

This is what I am talking about. You can't see the Rapture when its presented. Remember, Jesus told only Paul about the vagaries of the Rapture, here Jesus is answering the THREE QUESTIONS the Disciples asked, I have done an Exegesis that took months on this one chapter. The three questions are 

The first question was about what Jesus had just said, the Temple being DESTROYED ( When shall these things be? ) The second question was what will be the Sign of your Coming and the third question was what shall the end of the World. These are dealt with in order. So we get about 10 to 12 signs, the last sign being the Sun and Moon being darkened {Joel ch. 2 mention} in verse 29 so that Generation {70th week Tribulation Generation} will be the one to see Jesus returning in the clouds {Second Coming}. 

Jesus has thus covered the largest base of the Jewish peoples because 85-95 percent of them will not receive the Lord Jesus Christ before the Rapture that Paul has spoken about in many places, including 1 Corinthians chapter 15. So now Jesus, in order to answer the three questions IN FULL,  must cover the few Messianic Jews plight, you know like Paul, John, Peter and all of today's Messianic Jews. What will happen to them at the End Times? Well they will be Raptured, along with all the dead in Christ, and those of us who are alive when Jesus calls us home to Heaven, so we can Marry the Lamb (Rev. 19) and then return with him to destroy the Anti-Christ and his Minions.

So Matthew 36-51 tells about the coming Rapture of the Church, but I will only post verses 38-42, for it emphasizes everything that needs to be said, Jesus tells the Messianic Jews about their destiny.

Matthew 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

This of course happens right before the Tribulation, or Jacobs Troubles. If this actually happened during the Tribulation period would they be Drinking/Marrying and having a grand ole time? No, of course not, that makes no sense, the Jewish nation will be in hiding in the Wilderness, (Rev. 12) and the wicked men of earth will be dodging the plagues of Gods Wrath, there will be no one who will be having fun just before Jesus’ SECOND COMING, that I can assure you !! So this is the Rapture here, we are expectant, but Surprised when Jesus Returns. The World during Gods Wrath will not be surprised, the 6th Vial is the Gathering of nations unto Meggido for the battle of Armageddon, so does anyone really think that Jesus showing up on The Mt. of Olives at Vial number 7 is going to be a surprise? NO…..The Anti-Christ has exactly 42 Months to rule.

Jesus then illustrates what can only be the Rapture, it can not be the Second Coming. He says Two will be in the field and One will be taken and the other shall be left [Behind]. The same thing is spoken about with the women grinding at the mill, One will be taken and One left.

Then Jesus says WATCH, for you know not what hour when your Lord comes. Just like the Bride knew not what hour the Bridegroom was to come !! We know when Jesus’ Second Coming will be. Exactly 42 Months after the Anti-Christ commits the Abomination of Desolation, AND…….everyone on earth will all see Jesus (with us at his side) splitting the Eastern skies, no one will be left behind, believe me, the Wicked will be DESTROYED, not left behind. Amen.

Matthew 24:1-6 is the Destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple.

Matthew 24:7-13 is the 2000 year period from 70 AD to the Rapture.

Matthew 24:36-51 is the Rapture/Matthew assumed it should be with the Second Coming, but of course only Paul was given the Rapture understanding.

Matthew 24:15-28 is the Abomination/Time of Troubles/False Prophet and Anti-Christ time.

Matthew 24:29-31 is the Second Coming of Jesus Christ. The Church will come back from Heaven with Jesus Christ on White Horses (Rev. 19) Amen, Glory to God.

Matthew 24:32-35 is the Parable of the “FIG TREE”. It basically is saying when the Fig Tree is ripe you know that Summer is NEAR and Likewise, when you SEE ALL OF THESE SIGNS, My Coming will be Near.

The Sign of Jesus Second Coming will…….NOT be when you see the Temples/Jerusalem’s Destruction, NOT when you see the Kingdoms vs. Kingdoms or pestilences, NOT be when the Gospel is Preached unto all the World, NOT be when the Abomination of Desolation happens, NOT be when you see the TROUBLES OF JACOB, it will NOT be when you see the false christ and false prophet, it will NOT be when you see the Sun turn dark, the moon turn red or the stars falling from the skies.

But the Second Coming will only happen when you see ALL OF THESE SIGNS COME TO PASS !! 

Basically this is a multi faceted prophecy, that takes revelation from God to understand via much prayer. 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This was about half of my Matt. 24 Exegesis, I chose to limit it by not putting in all the Verses and my dissection of each verse, I chose to just show the end result of why Matt. 24:36-51 is actually the Rapture. You point to it as the Second Coming, in fairness its not placed in the proper place because Matthew had no idea about the Rapture, so it seemed in the proper place to him, only Paul was given the Rapture Mystery. 

5 hours ago, Uriah said:

1 Thes 4:14- For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

It is the dead in Christ who are brought back with Jesus. This is when they come out of the graves. If not you would need ANOTHER rapture and resurrection at the END of the tribulation because those who resisted the mark are seen in Rev. 20 and are going to reign with Him for 1,000 yrs! And there will be martyrs through that period as well. Then the there is a resurrection AFTER the thousand years. So as I have been saying-too many resurrections (and raptures too)

The Dead in Christ AND those who are Alive and REMAIN {in Christ of course} are all taken to Heaven to be with the Lord, the bible says so. We see the Church in Rev. chapters 4 and 5 BEFORE the Seals are opened and in Heaven in Rev. 7:9-17 AFTER the Seals are opened, save the 7th Seal which is all 7 Trumps combined. We see the Church RETURN with Christ in Rev. 19 WITH Jesus while the Beast is STILL ON EARTH !! I can't be defeated via this subject because I am standing on the pillars of TRUTH brother.

5 hours ago, Uriah said:

In Rev 19 the bride is given her new attire, NOT 7 yrs earlier! We ALL get new bodies at the same time-read Heb. 11:40.

A multitude of people in that chapter can be seen in the air shouting for joy as Jesus arrives on the white horse! THAT is the rapture!!!

The Bride stays in the Marriage Chambers for 7 days {7 years}.  We see her in Rev. 19 BEFORE she gains her White Raiment, we see her in Rev. 4 and 5 with her White Raiment, and that is BEFORE the Seals are opened {Middle of the Week}. 

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8 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

This is what I am talking about. You can't see the Rapture when its presented. Remember, Jesus told only Paul about the vagaries of the Rapture, here Jesus is answering the THREE QUESTIONS the Disciples asked, I have done an Exegesis that took months on this one chapter. The three questions are 

The first question was about what Jesus had just said, the Temple being DESTROYED ( When shall these things be? ) The second question was what will be the Sign of your Coming and the third question was what shall the end of the World. These are dealt with in order. So we get about 10 to 12 signs, the last sign being the Sun and Moon being darkened {Joel ch. 2 mention} in verse 29 so that Generation {70th week Tribulation Generation} will be the one to see Jesus returning in the clouds {Second Coming}. 

Jesus has thus covered the largest base of the Jewish peoples because 85-95 percent of them will not receive the Lord Jesus Christ before the Rapture that Paul has spoken about in many places, including 1 Corinthians chapter 15. So now Jesus, in order to answer the three questions IN FULL,  must cover the few Messianic Jews plight, you know like Paul, John, Peter and all of today's Messianic Jews. What will happen to them at the End Times? Well they will be Raptured, along with all the dead in Christ, and those of us who are alive when Jesus calls us home to Heaven, so we can Marry the Lamb (Rev. 19) and then return with him to destroy the Anti-Christ and his Minions.

So Matthew 36-51 tells about the coming Rapture of the Church, but I will only post verses 38-42, for it emphasizes everything that needs to be said, Jesus tells the Messianic Jews about their destiny.

Matthew 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

This of course happens right before the Tribulation, or Jacobs Troubles. If this actually happened during the Tribulation period would they be Drinking/Marrying and having a grand ole time? No, of course not, that makes no sense, the Jewish nation will be in hiding in the Wilderness, (Rev. 12) and the wicked men of earth will be dodging the plagues of Gods Wrath, there will be no one who will be having fun just before Jesus’ SECOND COMING, that I can assure you !! So this is the Rapture here, we are expectant, but Surprised when Jesus Returns. The World during Gods Wrath will not be surprised, the 6th Vial is the Gathering of nations unto Meggido for the battle of Armageddon, so does anyone really think that Jesus showing up on The Mt. of Olives at Vial number 7 is going to be a surprise? NO…..The Anti-Christ has exactly 42 Months to rule.

Jesus then illustrates what can only be the Rapture, it can not be the Second Coming. He says Two will be in the field and One will be taken and the other shall be left [Behind]. The same thing is spoken about with the women grinding at the mill, One will be taken and One left.

Then Jesus says WATCH, for you know not what hour when your Lord comes. Just like the Bride knew not what hour the Bridegroom was to come !! We know when Jesus’ Second Coming will be. Exactly 42 Months after the Anti-Christ commits the Abomination of Desolation, AND…….everyone on earth will all see Jesus (with us at his side) splitting the Eastern skies, no one will be left behind, believe me, the Wicked will be DESTROYED, not left behind. Amen.

Matthew 24:1-6 is the Destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple.

Matthew 24:7-13 is the 2000 year period from 70 AD to the Rapture.

Matthew 24:36-51 is the Rapture/Matthew assumed it should be with the Second Coming, but of course only Paul was given the Rapture understanding.

Matthew 24:15-28 is the Abomination/Time of Troubles/False Prophet and Anti-Christ time.

Matthew 24:29-31 is the Second Coming of Jesus Christ. The Church will come back from Heaven with Jesus Christ on White Horses (Rev. 19) Amen, Glory to God.

Matthew 24:32-35 is the Parable of the “FIG TREE”. It basically is saying when the Fig Tree is ripe you know that Summer is NEAR and Likewise, when you SEE ALL OF THESE SIGNS, My Coming will be Near.

The Sign of Jesus Second Coming will…….NOT be when you see the Temples/Jerusalem’s Destruction, NOT when you see the Kingdoms vs. Kingdoms or pestilences, NOT be when the Gospel is Preached unto all the World, NOT be when the Abomination of Desolation happens, NOT be when you see the TROUBLES OF JACOB, it will NOT be when you see the false christ and false prophet, it will NOT be when you see the Sun turn dark, the moon turn red or the stars falling from the skies.

But the Second Coming will only happen when you see ALL OF THESE SIGNS COME TO PASS !! 

Basically this is a multi faceted prophecy, that takes revelation from God to understand via much prayer. 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This was about half of my Matt. 24 Exegesis, I chose to limit it by not putting in all the Verses and my dissection of each verse, I chose to just show the end result of why Matt. 24:36-51 is actually the Rapture. You point to it as the Second Coming, in fairness its not placed in the proper place because Matthew had no idea about the Rapture, so it seemed in the proper place to him, only Paul was given the Rapture Mystery. 

The Dead in Christ AND those who are Alive and REMAIN {in Christ of course} are all taken to Heaven to be with the Lord, the bible says so. We see the Church in Rev. chapters 4 and 5 BEFORE the Seals are opened and in Heaven in Rev. 7:9-17 AFTER the Seals are opened, save the 7th Seal which is all 7 Trumps combined. We see the Church RETURN with Christ in Rev. 19 WITH Jesus while the Beast is STILL ON EARTH !! I can't be defeated via this subject because I am standing on the pillars of TRUTH brother.

The Bride stays in the Marriage Chambers for 7 days {7 years}.  We see her in Rev. 19 BEFORE she gains her White Raiment, we see her in Rev. 4 and 5 with her White Raiment, and that is BEFORE the Seals are opened {Middle of the Week}. 

I see you put out many words about things I didn't refer to or ask. Let me make plain ONE more time:

Your position includes a rapture and resurrection BEFORE the tribulation

Then of course there has to be a rapture and resurrection AFTER the tribulation to account for the "trib saints" who die and the ones who are alive and remain. 

Then there is ANOTHER resurrection at the end of the thousand years.

 

Let's see if you can stay on topic.

 

 

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13 minutes ago, Walter Goraj jr said:

You know when I read 2Peter 3 along with other passages I really believe that God is going to come with a type of fire that we don't understand ( ...the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up." v.10)  ..it's going to be such a cleansing thing, and I think just as Christ was in the fiery furnace with Daniel's friends, when He comes and our bodies are changed I believe we're going to see everything burned up before our "eyes"  (" A fire devoureth before them. ...." Joel 2:3) and wow  there are  so many verses with fire and the end of the world.

The only thing I could read about the new Earth is that it will be void of sin and only God's people will inhabit it in their new glorified spiritual bodies. Also nothing will be remembered of the former Earth or anything that has to do with sin or anything (Rev. 21:4)

I guess it would be in a different dimension... will the earth still retain its shape? When we are caught up to meet the Lord in the air where do we dwell after that? Really can't describe it... spiritual kind of Earth?   

Maybe I'll study more on it

Walt,

If my website was still up I could show you another take regarding these things. Suffice it to say the scriptures say the Earth remains forever. 

There will be many fires. There will be seismic activity, to the point where the lava flows will be seen as Peter also refers to-elements melted with intense heat. 

If I can upload some stuff to the cloud (Drop Box?) this weekend I'll put a link up here. All prophecies we have seen fulfilled so far have been literally fulfilled. If that were not the case they would be no prophecy at all. 

I'll get back here shortly.

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5 hours ago, Uriah said:

I see you put out many words about things I didn't refer to or ask. Let me make plain ONE more time:

Your position includes a rapture and resurrection BEFORE the tribulation

Then of course there has to be a rapture and resurrection AFTER the tribulation to account for the "trib saints" who die and the ones who are alive and remain. 

Then there is ANOTHER resurrection at the end of the thousand years.

 

Let's see if you can stay on topic.

 

 

No, its ONE the Holy People of God..........then TWO the Unholy People. 

I gave you a demonstration you ignored. When the Bible shows us the timeline, then people like you insist it can't be that way because God can't have two categories He has to have TWP SPECIFIC RESURRECTIONS, then that's on you, because the bible is clear. You see, the real truth is you can't see the Pre Trib Rapture, so it can't be, even though it is. 

Rev. 12:17 proves a Pre Trib Rapture, but you can't see it. Its there, but one has to be able to solve puzzles or parable to see the things of God.

The very scripture I pointed to proves that the REMNANT of Rev. 12:17 has to be The Church, it is not possible that the Remnant is the Jews, and that means if the REMANT is the Church, then the Church has to be in Heaven, because a Remnant BY DEFINITION means a small portion that is left !!

So how do I know the Remnant can not be the Jew ? Via God's Word. It says that the Dragon got ANGRY that He couldn't get at the Woman (Jews who fled Judea, or the Jews {1/3} who Repented) so he went after the Remnant of HER SEED.........Well her Seed is Jesus as Galatians ch. 3 says. Thus the Remnant of her seed Jesus would be the Church. We know it CAN NOT be the rest of the Jews don't we ? It's 2/3 who do not Repent according to Zechariah 13:8-9, so the larger part can't be the Remnant, AND we see in Rev. 12:17 that these Remnant have the TESTIMONY of Jesus and keep God's Commandments !! So we know the 2/3 of the Jews who don't repent will perish, thus they have never repented, thus that CAN NOT have the Testimony of Jesus Christ can they ? So the Remnant CAN NOT be Jews. And since it has to be the Gentile Church AND its a Remnant, that means THE CHURCH is not on earth, but in Heaven. 

I wonder if that will register brother ? Or if it just breezes on by. 

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15 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

No, its ONE the Holy People of God..........then TWO the Unholy People. 

I gave you a demonstration you ignored. When the Bible shows us the timeline, then people like you insist it can't be that way because God can't have two categories He has to have TWP SPECIFIC RESURRECTIONS, then that's on you, because the bible is clear. You see, the real truth is you can't see the Pre Trib Rapture, so it can't be, even though it is. 

Rev. 12:17 proves a Pre Trib Rapture, but you can't see it. Its there, but one has to be able to solve puzzles or parable to see the things of God.

The very scripture I pointed to proves that the REMNANT of Rev. 12:17 has to be The Church, it is not possible that the Remnant is the Jews, and that means if the REMANT is the Church, then the Church has to be in Heaven, because a Remnant BY DEFINITION means a small portion that is left !!

So how do I know the Remnant can not be the Jew ? Via God's Word. It says that the Dragon got ANGRY that He couldn't get at the Woman (Jews who fled Judea, or the Jews {1/3} who Repented) so he went after the Remnant of HER SEED.........Well her Seed is Jesus as Galatians ch. 3 says. Thus the Remnant of her seed Jesus would be the Church. We know it CAN NOT be the rest of the Jews don't we ? It's 2/3 who do not Repent according to Zechariah 13:8-9, so the larger part can't be the Remnant, AND we see in Rev. 12:17 that these Remnant have the TESTIMONY of Jesus and keep God's Commandments !! So we know the 2/3 of the Jews who don't repent will perish, thus they have never repented, thus that CAN NOT have the Testimony of Jesus Christ can they ? So the Remnant CAN NOT be Jews. And since it has to be the Gentile Church AND its a Remnant, that means THE CHURCH is not on earth, but in Heaven. 

I wonder if that will register brother ? Or if it just breezes on by. 

Are you evading my point?

Let me try one simple question that needs no long winded answer of things not asked:

Do you consider the pre trib rapture/resurrection to be the same FIRST RESURRECTION to be the same as the one needed for the great multitude of Rev.7 who were in the tribulatio? AFTER the pre trib scenario. These "trib saints" will be alive and remain until the END, while some are martyred. This also requires a rapture/resurrection.

 

Edited by Uriah
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14 hours ago, Walter Goraj jr said:

ok. Thank you

You're welcome, check your P M

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