Pre mid or post trib?

[Guest]

The statement "no one knows for sure" is a lie from the pits of hell and it is just what Satan want you to believe.

Vickilynn Is Our Dear Sister In The Lord.

The Sisters At Worthy Are The Beloved Of The Lamb Of God.

Abba Father Watches Over These Precious Daughter Of Zion.

Their Big Brother The LORD Jesus Christ Watches Over These Precious Little Ones With A Jealous Love.

The Holy Spirit Of The Living God Has A Hedge Of Holy Fire Ringing Our Beloved Sisters.

Vickilynn Might Not Agree With The Rest Of Us Knuckle Heads Over Every Little Quibble But She Does Not Listen To Old Dust Breath!

Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.

Philippians 2:1

I Hold You, Her And The Rest Of This Rowdy Worthy Family, Including Unbelievers, In The Highest Esteem And In My Prayers.

I Know The One Who Draws Us Hear Together To Worship, Pray And Play.

Our Redeemer Lives!

I Believed In A Pre-Tribulation Rapture But I Now Believe I Do Not Know.

Looking At The Blood Lusting Killers Surrounding Jerusalem, We Could Be In The Beginning Of The Tribulation Or In The.......?

All I Know Is The Time Is Short And The Harvest Is Ripe!

Pray For The Peace Of Jerusalem.

Be Blessed Beloved

Post Early, Post Often

Love, Your Brother Joe

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, everyone.

I don't really believe in ANY of them! The "tribulation," especially mentioned in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21, is a translation of the Greek word "thlipsis" which means "pressure." In context, it is clear that this "pressure" is the pressure put on Isra'el during a time of genocide. Now, preterists believe that this was fulfilled during 65 to 70 A.D., but I believe it only started then. It continued on for the next 1937 years (give or take), and will get worse before it gets better. I believe that this "pressure" is strictly on Isra'el and may be extended to the rest of the remnant, as well. (That may include us Gentile [Goyim] believers.) There is NO "great tibulation" at all. Listen to the words carefully:

Matt 24:9-21

9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

KJV

The above bold words come from the Greek word "thlipsis." What Yeshua` was saying is this: "At that time they shall turn you over to put you under pressure and shall kill you. You shall be hated by all the Goyim (Gentile) countries on my account. Then, many will be led into sin by betraying one another and shall hate one another. Many lying prophets shall come on the scene and shall mislead many people. Because lawlessness (religious beliefs without the Torah) shall have been multiplied, the love of the many [isra'elis] shall grow cold. However, he who shall survives to the End, that person shall be rescued! And this good news about the Kingdom shall be heralded in all the world for a testimony to all the Goyim (Gentile) nations, and then shall the End come. Therefore, when you shall the disgusting thing that makes Isra'el desolate happening in the Holy Place, proclaimed by Dani'el the prophet, (he who reads should understand), then those in Y'hudah (Judah) should flee to the mountains! He who is on the housetop should not come down to take anything out of his house! [He should take the "road of the rooftops" out of Yerushalayim (Jerusalem)!] He who is in the field should not come back into town to collect his clothes! And...OOAAHIEEE!...for those who are pregnant and for those who breastfeed in those days! Also, ask God that your escape not have to be during the winter nor on Shabbat (Sabbath), for that would make it HUGE pressure, the worst ever since the creation of the world until now, no, nor ever shall be again!"

Presumably, the students of Yeshua` DID pray that it not happen on Shabbat or in the winter when Titus attacked Yerushalayim, because His destruction did not catch them in winter's cold and snow nor did it catch them on a Shabbat when travel was limited, but they got clean away into the mountains.

"Seven years of tribulation?" No, that comes from a bad read of Dani'el 9:24-27:

Dan 9:24-27

"Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people [isra'el] and your holy city [Yerushalayim], to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy. 25 "So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Yerushalayim (Jerusalem) until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress. 26 "Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined. 27 "And He [the Messiah] will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week He will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the coat-tails of abominations [against the Messiah] will come one who makes desolate [as predicted by the Messiah], even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the ones who make [isra'el] desolate."

NASU (with modifications based on the JPS Hebrew-English Tanakh by the Jewish Publication Society)

The preterists are right in their interpretation of this passage as being fulfilled during and soon after the first advent of Yeshua haMashiach (Jesus the Christ)...UNTIL the last half of verse 27: The gap that many feel begins BEFORE the last week, actually begins in the middle of the week and continues INDEFINITELY until a "complete destruction is poured out on the ones who make [isra'el] desolate!"

We may augment this passage with the actual decree of desolation:

Matt 23:37-39

" Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. 38 "Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! 39 "For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, 'BLESSED IS HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD!' ['Baruwk haba' b'shem YHVH!' meaning 'Welcome is he who comes on behalf of YHVH!']"

NASU

He is also the One who ended the sacrifice and the grain offering:

Matt 27:50-54

50 And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit. 51 And behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth shook and the rocks were split. 52 The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many.

NASU

Heb 10:11-22

11 Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; 12 but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD, 13 waiting from that time onward UNTIL HIS ENEMIES BE MADE A FOOTSTOOL FOR HIS FEET. 14 For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified. 15 And the Holy Spirit also testifies to us; for after saying,

16 "THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM

AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD:

I WILL PUT MY LAWS UPON THEIR HEART,

AND ON THEIR MIND I WILL WRITE THEM,"

He then says,

17 "AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS

I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."

18 Now where there is forgiveness of these things, there is no longer any offering for sin.

19 Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.

NASU

Thus, Dani'el 9 is no proof text for either the "seven years of tribulation" or for the "Antichrist." It was the Messiah Himself who was with them for half of the week before He was rejected by their abomination of rejecting YHVH's Anointed to be King! Yet, even in His rejection, He provided justification and forgiveness for Jew and Gentile alike! ALL AS PREDICTED by Dani'el! The other half of the week though was NOT fulfilled yet, because it doesn't come "until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the ones who make [isra'el] desolate." Since Isra'el is still paying for their rejection of their Messiah, this "complete destruction" has not ended, yet.

HOWEVER, the good news is He will also end the desolation when Yerushalayim says, "Baruwk haba' b'shem YHVH!" When they welcome the Messiah, even Yeshua` the Messiah, then Yeshua` will return! Thank God, we are seeing such a return to Yeshua` by the Jews through the Messianic Movement and Jews for Jesus and other such organizations that see the need for Isra'el to accept their Messiah!

So, what do I do now with "pre, mid, or post?" There's only three and a half years left, not seven! "A time, times and half a time"; "42 months"; "1260 days!" Furthermore, they are the "time of YA'ACOV'S Trouble, ISRA'EL'S Trouble!" Pre=Mid and Post? How does one tell? These remaining three-and-a-half years of Ya'acov's Trouble are punctuated with a meteorite shower (Revelation 6:12-9:12), but much of the seals, trumpets, and bowls happen DURING His return while He is returning or even AFTER His return to earth! So is it "pre/mid" or is it "post?" Actually, it's NEITHER!

Just remember Paul's words:

Rom 11:25-32

25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery--so that you will not be wise in your own estimation--that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; 26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,

"THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION,

HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB."

27 "THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM,

WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS."

28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; 29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, 31 so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. 32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.

NASU

I like what Paul says a little earlier:

Rom 11:11-16

11 I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous. 12 Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be! 13 But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.

NASU

When Isra'el accepts Him, and He accepts them, the Resurrection of the Dead will happen! That's when He will return! Keep looking up!

Retrobyter

[chin]

check out the hal lindsey report.com..... you can find out more about endtimes. jim

[Christian]

check out the hal lindsey report.com..... you can find out more about endtimes. jim

Thanks, but no thanks. I'll take the Bible over any sensationalist "author" anyday !!!

Thanks for sharing your insight on Scripture Retrobyter.

I think if more people relied on the Bible and not commentaries and books on the subject there would not be the divisions among us that we have. Teachers and "modern prophets" are fallible, the Word of God is not... remember that.

in Christ,

Christian

[Guest]

And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.

For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

Revelation 7:13-17

[Massorite]

The statement "no one knows for sure" is a lie from the pits of hell and it is just what Satan want you to believe.

Vickilynn Is Our Dear Sister In The Lord.

The Sisters At Worthy Are The Beloved Of The Lamb Of God.

Abba Father Watches Over These Precious Daughter Of Zion.

Their Big Brother The LORD Jesus Christ Watches Over These Precious Little Ones With A Jealous Love.

The Holy Spirit Of The Living God Has A Hedge Of Holy Fire Ringing Our Beloved Sisters.

Vickilynn Might Not Agree With The Rest Of Us Knuckle Heads Over Every Little Quibble But She Does Not Listen To Old Dust Breath!

Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.

Philippians 2:1

II Hold You, Her And The Rest Of This Rowdy Worthy Family, Including Unbelievers, In The Highest Esteem And In My Prayers.

I Know The One Who Draws Us Hear Together To Worship, Pray And Play.

Our Redeemer Lives!

I Believed In A Pre-Tribulation Rapture But I Now Believe I Do Not Know.

Looking At The Blood Lusting Killers Surrounding Jerusalem, We Could Be In The Beginning Of The Tribulation Or In The.......?

All I Know Is The Time Is Short And The Harvest Is Ripe!

Pray For The Peace Of Jerusalem.

Be Blessed Beloved

Post Early, Post Often

Love, Your Brother Joe

I wasn't trying to insult anybody but when it come to false teaching I do not hesitate to point it out. We are not meant to know the hour or the day but we are meant to know the signs of the times. We are to know what prophecies are being fulfilled. God gave us all of the book of Revelation so that we would know what to look for and I will say it again. The idea that no one knows is a lie from the pits of Hell and those who teach it are decieved. The closest event to the coming of Christ is when the moon, the stars and the sun are all darkened and then we will know that He will be coming any minute. False doctrinal teaching is false doctrinal teaching no matter who teaches it or speaks it. Jesus didn't hesitate to tell what He thought and niether do I when it come to the word of God. Today everybody is so afraid of offening somebody that they won't speak the truth without watering it done.

Edited July 18, 2007 by Massorite

[Christian]

I wasn't trying to insult anybody but when it come to false teaching I do not hesitate to point it out. We are not meant to know the hour or the day but we are meant to know the signs of the times. We are to know what prophecies are being fulfilled.

I have NEVER seen this rapture discussion/debate come to a unanimous point of view...NEVER...sadly for us. We all take our "sides", we all stand on being "scripturally accurate" and we use every commentary and author that agrees with our viewpoint to make our case. All sides insist they are in possession of the "real" meaning of Revelation, and again sadly for us we will NEVER relent on the opinion that WE alone speak the Truth.

So much trouble and unecessary disagreement disguised as sanctimonious righteousness.

When Christ is coming does not matter, it is that He is coming. Try all you want to "decipher" the libraries of viewpoints on His second advent, but the timing eluded to by men is all conjecture. The Bible states very cleary in many places, as did Jesus about no-one knowing the time. (Matthew 24:50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of...ring a bell?).

All I am saying is that Christ instructed us to be busy doing His work, and that we should be found doing such on His return. Infighting with our brothers and sisters about "who's Jesus is bigger" is certainly not that commision. Those who are saved and born again will not be any more saved and born again by being verbally pummeled (especially based on conjecture).

When He comes we will know it, and if the world begins to crumble around us while we wait we'll know He's not here yet...right? And in the meantime we should be helping the lost and those in need, not berating brothers and sisters in Christ in some prideful, vain-glorious disagreement.

1 Corinthians 2:2-5

(2) For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

(3) And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.

(4) And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:

(5) That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

He will deliver us, when is unimportant, imagining everything else is a waste of energy.

Blessings and Love to you all,

in Christ,

Christian

[Massorite]

I wasn't trying to insult anybody but when it come to false teaching I do not hesitate to point it out. We are not meant to know the hour or the day but we are meant to know the signs of the times. We are to know what prophecies are being fulfilled.

I have NEVER seen this rapture discussion/debate come to a unanimous point of view...NEVER...sadly for us. We all take our "sides", we all stand on being "scripturally accurate" and we use every commentary and author that agrees with our viewpoint to make our case. All sides insist they are in possession of the "real" meaning of Revelation, and again sadly for us we will NEVER relent on the opinion that WE alone speak the Truth.

So much trouble and unecessary disagreement disguised as sanctimonious righteousness.

When Christ is coming does not matter, it is that He is coming. Try all you want to "decipher" the libraries of viewpoints on His second advent, but the timing eluded to by men is all conjecture. The Bible states very cleary in many places, as did Jesus about no-one knowing the time. (Matthew 24:50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of...ring a bell?).

All I am saying is that Christ instructed us to be busy doing His work, and that we should be found doing such on His return. Infighting with our brothers and sisters about "who's Jesus is bigger" is certainly not that commision. Those who are saved and born again will not be any more saved and born again by being verbally pummeled (especially based on conjecture).

When He comes we will know it, and if the world begins to crumble around us while we wait we'll know He's not here yet...right? And in the meantime we should be helping the lost and those in need, not berating brothers and sisters in Christ in some prideful, vain-glorious disagreement.

1 Corinthians 2:2-5

(2) For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

(3) And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.

(4) And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:

(5) That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

He will deliver us, when is unimportant, imagining everything else is a waste of energy.

Blessings and Love to you all,

in Christ,

Christian

First of all I don't read any commentaries or any book in which any man or woman expresses their opinions or view points. Because I believe that such books can pollute our minds with non biblical facts That sound logical but are false teachings. You are correct in that one can search these books until they find someone who agrees with their concept. I use Hebrew Lexicons, Greek Lexicons, Biblical dictionaries and the Strongs to do all of my research. I have never been influenced by any denominational doctrinal beliefs and I believe in a literal interpretation of the bible. So please if you could. Tell me what you are calling conjecture? The bible tells us to "study to be proved". Are you saying that we should skip prophetic scripture if we disagree about it or because it talks about bad stuff. I believe that the antichrist will come before Christ will because 2 Thess 2:3 says so. Are you calling the word of God conjecture? Do you think that God wrote all of that scripture because He didn't want anybody to know about it? Do you think that God wrote the bible so that ten people could read one verse and get ten different meanings from it? When Carl Marks, Harie Chrishna, Mao Se Tong and many others wrote their books on how to live do you think that he meant for those who read them to interpret their books their way or your way? There is only one way to interpret the word of God and that is Gods way. If it is not written in the bible it does not exsist and is a false doctrinal teaching.

You know I once heard Jack Van Impy say on his show that the word "falling" in 2 Thess 2:3 meant falling up, but that intertretation of the word falling can not be found no matter how hard one looks and hundreds of thousand of people heard him speak that untruth and many believed it because it fell in line with what they want to believe instead of what it really means. I have heard Charles Stanley say " You get your name written in the book of life when you get saved" yet there is no place in the bible where it says that and besides Moses knew there was a book and he knew that his name was written in it and he never got saved. People always say that when we die we go to heaven and yet there is not one single place in the bible were it says that. That doesn't mean that we go to hell when we die it means that we simply go to sleep like the bible says. Who is making a stand against false doctrinal teaching. I might be a nobody to the rest of Christiandom but I have that unrelenting desire to do so and God gave it to me. I do not consider myself a prophet but I can say that all of the prophets were killed because they were contrary to the beliefs of the people of their day. So God does send His servants to speak out against that which is contrary to His word. One day when the time is right God is going to inlarge my ministry.

So were is the conjecture here. If you think that I am wrong about what I say, Don't just run off at the mouth about conjecture and sanctimonious righteousness. SEND ME SOME SCRIPTURE. Prove me wrong using scripture. I am willing to change the way I believe but not without scripture that proves me wrong.

As The Spirit Of Compromise Rages On

Edited July 19, 2007 by Massorite

[Christian]

In an effort to quickly clear the air here and not drag the (o.p's) thread off track I will respond to your questions via PM Massorite.

in Christ,

Christian

[Guest]

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

John 3:16

Oh!

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Romans 8:1

No!

And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

1 Corinthians 13:2

Forgive!

Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

Matthew 18:21-22

Esteem!

Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.

Philippians 2:3

Love!

This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

John 15:12

Look Up!

And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Luke 21:28

Be Blessed Beloved Of The King

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:

The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them.

Numbers 6:24-27

Love, Joe