Pre mid or post trib?

[Massorite]

Man, I just love your message. You are so right and there are millions of Christians who are deceived by this escape theology of a pre-trib "rapture". Please permit me to correct you. Margaret MacDonald, sister of James and George MacDonald of Port Glasgow, had been sick and bed ridden for about 18 months during which time she claimed to have had a series of vision of the coming of the Lord. As she had these visions she wrote them down and sometime during March and April 1830 she sent a copy of these visions to a man named Edward Irving who pastored a Presbyterian church in London. About a month later Edward Irving claimed that Margaret's letter had a huge impact on him. From that point in time the per-trib concept has developed. But in Margaret's letter she said a lot that was contrary to scripture including misquating the parable about the ten vigins and talking about a secret rapture which is not spoken of anywhere in the bible.

Believe it or I have a copy of her letter. I got it from a website call name, I think "Last Trump.com"

This is your opinion. It's not fact. While it cannot be concretely proven that there will be a pre-tribulation rapture, it also cannot be proven that there will not be one, so any one saying it's "false doctrine" or some kind of "evil horrible teaching" is just giving an opinion based on nothing more than. . . their opinion. Might want to do a little more research because a pre-tribulation rapture was taught much, much earlier than 1830.

[kari21]

What does it say about the character of God to allow His children to go through the worst years in human history? The wrath is God is directed toward the UNbelieving world.

All throughout the Bible, when God decided it was time to punish, HE TOOK HIS PEOPLE OUT! (Sodom and Gomorrah, the Flood, etc.)

Funny, during the tribulation, God changes...

[Massorite]

Man, I just love your message. You are so right and there are millions of Christians who are deceived by this escape theology of a pre-trib "rapture". Please permit me to correct you. Margaret MacDonald, sister of James and George MacDonald of Port Glasgow, had been sick and bed ridden for about 18 months during which time she claimed to have had a series of vision of the coming of the Lord. As she had these visions she wrote them down and sometime during March and April 1830 she sent a copy of these visions to a man named Edward Irving who pastored a Presbyterian church in London. About a month later Edward Irving claimed that Margaret's letter had a huge impact on him. From that point in time the per-trib concept has developed. But in Margaret's letter she said a lot that was contrary to scripture including misquating the parable about the ten vigins and talking about a secret rapture which is not spoken of anywhere in the bible.

Believe it or I have a copy of her letter. I got it from a website call name, I think "Last Trump.com"

This is your opinion. It's not fact. While it cannot be concretely proven that there will be a pre-tribulation rapture, it also cannot be proven that there will not be one, so any one saying it's "false doctrine" or some kind of "evil horrible teaching" is just giving an opinion based on nothing more than. . . their opinion. Might want to do a little more research because a pre-tribulation rapture was taught much, much earlier than 1830.

OK Don't just run your mouth about the per-trib rapture concept being preached long before 1830. PROVE it. Send some reliable researchable proof.

I can certainly send you some proof that the pre-trib concept is a lie from the pits of hell. One of the pre-trib concepts major characteristics is the fact that Christ will come for His people before the antichrist shows up. But in 2 Thess 2:3 the word of God says the day of Christ will not come unti after the antichrist is revealed, unless of cource you are calling that portion of scripture a lie. Read it, research it and see for your self. Now there are those who teach that 2 Thess 2:3 happens after verses 6,7,& 8 of the same chapter take place. But that to is a lie from hell because it can not be scripturally proven. Another of the major characteristics of the pre-trib concept is that in 2 Thess 2:7 the bible speaks of a "Restrainer" or "He Who Withholds" or He Who Letteth" will Restrain until he will be taken out of the way. And then the wicked shall be revealed. (verse 8) The pre-trib concept teaches that this "Restrainer" is the church/body of Christ or the Holy Spirit. However that teaching can not be scripturally proven by any other scripture which makes that concept also nothing but a lie and an assumption.

So now I have sent you some scriptural proof that proves that my opinion is not based on simple opinion and is infact not at all an opinion but a belief that is based on scriptural fact. If the characteristics or features of the pre-trib concept can not be proven scriptually then the whole pre-trib concept is what God would call a lie from the chief of all who lie. Which leaves only the mid-trib and the post-trib concept left and I am ready to dispute the post-trib concept using the word of God to back up my beliefs.

I spent 8 years researching the book of Revelation and the only reputable, researchable and provable documentation that I could find was the MacDonald story. I can tell you that before 300 AD the whole of the early church believed in a mid-trib resurrection. After 300 AD the Roman church took over dictating doctrinal belief and the Jerusalem church simply faded away.

You are hereby Challenged.

As The Spirit of Compromise Rages On

Edited July 28, 2007 by Massorite

[kari21]

[Christian]

Morgan Edwards (1722-1795) who was one of the most influential Baptist preachers of his time, wrote a book in 1742-44, teaching the Pre-Trib Rapture.

Joseph Mede (1586-1638) taught it as well. I quote: "I will add this more, namely, what may be conceived to be the cause of this RAPTURE of the saints on high to meet the Lord in the clouds, rather than to wait his coming to earth....What if it be, that they may be PRESERVED during the Conflagration of the earth and the works thereof, 2 Pet.3:10, that as Noah and his family were preserved from the Deluge by being lift up above the waters in the Ark; so should the saints at the Conflagration be lift up in the clouds unto their Ark, Christ, to be preserved there from the deluge of fire, wherein the wicked shall be consumed?" ("The Works of Joseph Mede," 1672, London edition, Book IV, p.776)

It was also taught by the founder of the Catholic Apostolic Church, Edward Irving in the late 1820's

Also: "All the saints and elect of God are gathered together before the tribulation, which is to come, and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins." -Pseudo-Ephraem (c. 374-627)

Need any more?

All these are examples of the doctrine of "MEN" !!!

kari, these are not "scriptural" examples, clearly denoting proof. Also, all of your examples are from relatively the same time period (within 200 years of each other) to allow for this cult of thought to propagate.

And regardless of your adoration of "Ephraim the Syrian", he is yet another "man" giving his "interpretation" of scripture. His name is not among those who are in the accepted canon of scripture(no chapter of the Bible bears his name?), which I think it would be if he were so anointed and insightful.

1 Corinthians 2:4-7

(4) And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:

(5) That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

(6) Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

(7) But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

That "true power and wisdom of God" spoken of here can only come from scriptural infallibility.

[kari21]

Excuse me? You said, and I quote: " OK Don't just run your mouth about the per-trib rapture concept being preached long before 1830. PROVE it. Send some reliable researchable proof. "

I provided that proof. It was PREACHED long before 1830.

[Massorite]

OK Don't just run your mouth about the per-trib rapture concept being preached long before 1830. PROVE it. Send some reliable researchable proof. Edited July 28, 2007 by Massorite

[Massorite]

OK Don't just run your mouth about the per-trib rapture concept being preached long before 1830. PROVE it. Send some reliable researchable proof.

Morgan Edwards (1722-1795) who was one of the most influential Baptist preachers of his time, wrote a book in 1742-44, teaching the Pre-Trib Rapture.

Joseph Mede (1586-1638) taught it as well. I quote: "I will add this more, namely, what may be conceived to be the cause of this RAPTURE of the saints on high to meet the Lord in the clouds, rather than to wait his coming to earth....What if it be, that they may be PRESERVED during the Conflagration of the earth and the works thereof, 2 Pet.3:10, that as Noah and his family were preserved from the Deluge by being lift up above the waters in the Ark; so should the saints at the Conflagration be lift up in the clouds unto their Ark, Christ, to be preserved there from the deluge of fire, wherein the wicked shall be consumed?" ("The Works of Joseph Mede," 1672, London edition, Book IV, p.776)

It was also taught by the founder of the Catholic Apostolic Church, Edward Irving in the late 1820's

Also: "All the saints and elect of God are gathered together before the tribulation, which is to come, and are taken to the Lord, in order that they

may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins." -Pseudo-Ephraem (c. 374-627)

You may find this link interesting as well....

http://www.according2prophecy.org/ancient.html

Need any more?

[Massorite]

OK Don't just run your mouth about the per-trib rapture concept being preached long before 1830. PROVE it. Send some reliable researchable proof.

Morgan Edwards (1722-1795) who was one of the most influential Baptist preachers of his time, wrote a book in 1742-44, teaching the Pre-Trib Rapture.

Joseph Mede (1586-1638) taught it as well. I quote: "I will add this more, namely, what may be conceived to be the cause of this RAPTURE of the saints on high to meet the Lord in the clouds, rather than to wait his coming to earth....What if it be, that they may be PRESERVED during the Conflagration of the earth and the works thereof, 2 Pet.3:10, that as Noah and his family were preserved from the Deluge by being lift up above the waters in the Ark; so should the saints at the Conflagration be lift up in the clouds unto their Ark, Christ, to be preserved there from the deluge of fire, wherein the wicked shall be consumed?" ("The Works of Joseph Mede," 1672, London edition, Book IV, p.776)

It was also taught by the founder of the Catholic Apostolic Church, Edward Irving in the late 1820's

Also: "All the saints and elect of God are gathered together before the tribulation, which is to come, and are taken to the Lord, in order that they

may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins." -Pseudo-Ephraem (c. 374-627)

You may find this link interesting as well....

http://www.according2prophecy.org/ancient.html

Need any more?

Thank you for the info. I will research these people and their teachings and get back to you. But please don't talk to me about Catholics. As far as I am concerned anybody who preaches that we can pray to any dead man and that the dead man has the power to answer our prayers or to do miracles is a heretic who rejects the diety of Christ. You know my mother will pray to a dead woman/ Mary before she will pray to Christ. It is simply rebellion.

These people may have preached the pre-trib concept before 1830 but it still depends on what they based their beliefs on and if it wasn't scriptural. It is not.

Please send me all the info you got. I would be glad to look it over.

Edited July 29, 2007 by Massorite

[sweetycakes]

I lean more towards pre-trib.

A lot of it has to do, I suppose, from watching Barry Smith videos, and hearing him speak.

He was a great speaker, from New Zealand. He put forward a few convincing arguments for pre-trib rapture. You should watch some of them.

However, as always, I consider myself on a journey of learning, and would not altogether discount other possibilities.