Can your name be blotted out of the Lamb's Book of Life?

[exrockstar]

Here is something else that seems straight forward. 1 Corinthians 9:27 "But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway." Obviously Paul was saved, but even he realized it was possible to become a castaway if he ceased to follow God. It all comes down to interpretation. That is why that while I don't agree with the OSAS doctrine, I respect the opinion of those who do. I don't go around claiming they are preaching a license to sin and things like that because many of them live better than those who reject OSAS. It is more a matter of committment than anything.

26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:

27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means,

when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

is he a castaway to God OR....is he telling the Corinthians that since he preaches to others that if he doesnt

keep himself under discpline that he will be a castaway to his ministry?

we see that all the time. There is a church with many members then one day the pastor does something that the church

has lost respect for him. That pastor has such a responisibility that he may be labeled a castaway to the church member's eyes.

Paul wasnt talking about losing salvation. Paul was recognizing the responsibility he had.

Think about it...if Paul would of not kept his mind, body and soul under control then the churches he was establishing would of <insert thought here>.

That is an example of what I was talking about. There are differen't ways we can interpret individual verses througout the Bible. To me, this means that Paul would be in danger of losing his salvation if he fails to keep his body under subjection, and you take it to mean that he would lose the respect of the church and be a castaway from his ministry. Every single verse that supports OSAS can also oppose it and vice versa.

There are numerous other doctrines where the same thing happens. The rapture of the church for instance. I believe in the pre-tribulation rapture, and have scriptures to back up my position, but there are others who believe in the mid and post-tribulation rapture who have scriptures to back up their positions. When it comes to the basic plan of salvation, the Bible is clear to the point where most of the church world is in unity, but when it comes to other doctrines, we are divided, not because people aren't wanting the truth, but because things are not spelled out that plain. That is why there are so many denominations as well as independent churches today. We have our faith in Christ that unites us, but we differ on nearly everything else, and as a result, have divided into various groups.

well the whole chapter isnt talking about salvation.

you said you read the bible many times then shouldnt we approach it like its organized instead of a bunch of random thoughts?

if you read the beginning of Chapter 9 it says:

1 Corinthians 9

1 Am I am not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? are not ye my work in the Lord?

2 If I be not an apostle unto others, yet doubtless I am to you: for the seal of mine apostleship are ye in the Lord. (seal! geez im good)

i just "interpreted" for you that it talks about his responsibility in establishing ministries and apostleship.

show me in the chapter where he talks about losing salvation?

i never read a verse and run with it.

I read it then read surrounding scriptures then read the chapter if i have to.

he even says:

"19For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more."

all 27 verses do not talk a bout losing salvation but you make the conclusion. then you talk about interpretation?

it takes time and patience. this is study. this is making "interpretations" that make a little sense.

im not judging you but what else can i tell you?

i guess you have your study methods and i have mine"?

[exrockstar]

When this epistle was written, it wasn't broken down into individual chapters. If you want to come from that argument, the entire epistle covers many differen't subjects, so this argument doesn't work. Let's take your scripture from 1 John for instance. There are scriptures in 1 John that would seem to show OSAS cannot be right, at least as it is taught today. For instance, the OSAS believers think that if a person is a Christian and they commit adultery and die while in the very act, they are still saved. Listen to what it says in 1 John 3:6 "Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him." Verse 8-10 "He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whoseover is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." The only way these verses work in conjunction with OSAS is if you believe that anyone that sins was never really saved, and that is not what is being preached.

i'm confused with what your saying. to be honest, i dont know what is being preached. i dont get into religion that much.

yeah i go to church but i cut off all the fat that is being preached.

as for chapters and verses, they aint that bad. some one somewhere tried to organize it a little.

because we're talking about translations then we have to follow the main point sometimes.

ie\

1. i like apples

2. they are red and delicious

3. covered in caramel

4. oh it tastes great

what is "it" the caramel or the apple?

sometimes we have dig and use other scripture to make sure there isnt a conflict.

while everyone is arguing over verse 4 some decide to go to other scripture to support.

[HAZARD]

Judas is a classic example of once saved then lost, and he had his name blotted out of the book of life.

There are many more such examples as Judas in the Scriptures. I have discussed this with several prominant board administrators and board founders and also many ministers, and to my surprise they fail to understand this despite the Scriptures plainly showing that a saved person who returnes to sin is lost unless they repent and return to Christ.

Judas had eternal life. He was a saved man. His name was written in the "Book of Life." Judas was a "Familiar Friend" of Christ who ate His bread (Psalm 41:9) Judas was not an enemy of Christ, but an equal in Grace, a guide, and a sweet acpuaintance; (Read these Scriptures for they are the truth, Psalms 55:12-13).

In Matt. 10 we have the facts recorded that Judas as one of the "twelve disciples" recieved power over demons, sickness and diseases and was called to preach the gospel. Of these twelve (Judas included) it is said that Christ gave them power and sent them forth, and commanded them to preach and to heal the sick. Jesus said to Judas and all the twelve, "Freely ye have recieved, freel give. . . and I send you forth as sheep . . . it shall not be ye that speak, but the spirit of your Father which speaketh in you" (Matt. 10:1-20).

These statements prove that Judas was once chosen and a genuine apostle. He was a true believer, a saved man, divinely empowered and equal in every sense with the others, a called preacher and a destroyer of Satans works. He was untill he sinned an obedient man, a sheep filled with the Spirit, and one who had God as his Father. In Mark 6:7-13 we read that the twelve (Judas included) went "forth two by two . . . and preached that men should repent. And they (Judas included) cast out demons and anointed with oil many that were sick, and healed them. This proves that Judas was a divinley efficient man, a sucessful preacher and had the power to heal.

If Judas was not a saved man, and if he could have done all these miracles as a lost sinner, then it would seem that the modern Christians who claim to be saved regardless of what they do should be able to do as much as Judas did whom they say was never saved.

It is insulting to Jesus Christ Himself and His Father in Heaven to accuse them of choosing an unsaved man to preach repentance and holiness, to heal the sick, to cast out demons, and the represent the Kingdom of God among men.

The only proof some men give to prove Judas was never saved is their OWN BELIEF that Judas was not a saved man at one time because he was FINALLY LOST.

Some cite John 6:64-70, but this passage does not say that Judas had at all times been a devil and unsaved. Jesus, in this Scripture was speaking of "some" of His disciples that believed not, and who should betray Him. The first part of this passage refers to the "some" that did not believe and does not include Judas. For after they had left Jesus JUDAS WAS STILL WITH THE TWELVE! whom Jesus asked, "Will ye also go away"???? See how easy it is to come to unsubstanciated conclusions!!! We must search the Scriptures like a bloodhound on the scent trail. Only the last part of this statement refers to Judas. Jesus knew who wdid not believe and He also knew who would betray Him. He did not say that Judas did not believe, nor that he was a devil from the beginning and therefore not a saved man.

The Holy Spirit through Luke records for us that JUDAS "BY TRANSGRESSION FELL" (Acts 1:15-25). Judas not only had a moral fall but "sin" caused it. Judas was not always a "devil" and a "thief." He became both after he had been saved for quite some time. Judas's weakness was the love of money and this caused his fall (John 12:6; Luke 22:5; Matt. 26:14-16). If he had refused to be treasurer of the first Christian disciples and had told them that money was his weakness, he would have been better off. Judas had seen Jesus escape the mob many times and he had no doubt the Lord would escape again and he would be thirty pieces better off.

It was not until the end of Christs ministry that Judas began to pilfer and to grow cold in his love of Christ. And it was not untill the last supper that the devil entered into his mind and became united in the same crime. Two days before the passover the devil put it into the heart of Judas to go top Christs enemies and betray Him. (Matt. 26:1-5, 14-16; John 13:2). It was at this time he openly broke away from christ AND SAUGHT THE OPPORTUNITY TO BETRAY HIM. Judas was sorry for his betrayal (Matt. 27:3-5), and he could have been forgiven as Peter was when he cursed God and denied Christ and fled like a coward at his test. But being of the disposition to do so Judas brooded over his sin and eventually yielded to satan to commit suicide. Judas then is a specific example of a New Testament man who was once saved and in God's favour and grace, but who lost this favour and went to Hell because of sin (Matt. 25:24 Acts 1:16-25).

Its this simple to understand. One cannot loose something we do not have! Jesus testified that to EVERY ONE [including Judas] the Father had given Him, He had given ETERNAL LIFE (John 17:2).

To deny Judas was once a saved man who lost his salvation is to deny Scripture and also deny Jesus Christs own statemens regarding Judas. Jesus also acknowledged to the Father that of those whom the Father had given Him Judas was the only one whom HE HAD LOST. Jesus Christ could not have LOST JUDAS HAD JUDAS NOT BEEN SAVED IN THE FIRST PLACE.! Judas had eternal life as much as the other apostles including Peter wo also denied Christ but he bacame "lost" and "by transgression fell" (Acts 1:25).

Not only were saved individuals warned to repent if they returned to sin, but entire churches were commanded by Jesus to repent or be lost. Many in the seven churches in Rev. 2-3 who WERE FALLEN from grace were repuired to repent and do their first works or else cut off in sin and be lost. Jesus was not a teacher of once in grace, or unconditional security always in grace and secure. He kept rebuking, warning, and commanding Christians to meet certain conditions if they were to be saved.

The Church at Ephesus, once in God's favour and grace at one time or it could not have fallen as indicated by Jesus Christ saying to it, I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. "Remember therefore FROM WHENCE THOU ART FALLEN, [there it is, the entire church had fallen from grace], AND REPENT, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and I will remove thy candlestick out of its place, [and again Jesus warns] except thou repent" (Rev. 2:4-5). One losing his first love loses God, as is clear from 1 John 4:7-8 which shows that if one does not have love he does not have God. Anyone who does not have God or love, does not have grace. Having fallen from all of this, the church at Ephesus was ORDERED TO REPENT and do its first works, or have their candlestick removed, which means THE WHOLE CHURCH would be removed, for the candlestick represents the church (Rev. 1:20).

The church, completly destroyed for centuries, apparently did not return and do the first works again. As is the case with any backslider, the latter end is worse that the beginning (Luke 11:24-26; 2 Peter 2:20-22). Christ demanded other churches to "repent" of idolatry, of comitting fornication, and adultery (Rev. 2:14-15, 19-24; 3:19), and He urged them to be on fire for God again, or be spewed out of "my mouth" (Rev. 3:15-16).

These and many other Scriptural, New Testament examples which have been given, and many more which can be shown plainly state that eternal life can be lost.

"And the times of this ignorance God WINKED AT; but now commandeth all men everywhere to repent. (Acts 17:27-30). God does turn a blind eye to genuine mistakes. But if one deliberately backslides, and does not repent, as clearly shown by Scripture, one is lost, until one comes again to repentance.

[Akiko]

To me, there are only two possible choices that make sense. Either you are a pure Calvanist, and really have nothing to do with your being saved or lost, or you are someone who believes you can lose salvation if you commit wilful sins or reject the Lord after being saved. I can find numerous passages that contradict the OSAS doctrine taught by most Baptists today.

I have to disagree... I'm not Calvanist. Works are not what earns your way to Heaven (as has been established), they are a way of expressing your thanks to God. If you really love Jesus, you'll want to share Him with others and be more like Him. That's how I see it.

I also disagree with the idea that you can throw away your own salvation. (I'm very disagreeable, I guess ) If God says "No one can snatch them out of My hand," I see it as nothing can separate us. There's also this famous passage; read it twice over:

"(35)Can anything ever separate us from Christ's love? Does it mean he no longer loves us if we have trouble or calamity, or are persecuted, or hungry, or destitute, or in danger, or threatened with death? (36) (As the Scriptures say, "For your sake we are killed every day; we are being slaughtered like sheep.") (37) No, despite all these things, overwhelming victory is ours through Christ, who loved us.

(38)And I am convinced that nothing can ever separate us from God's love. Neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither our fears for today nor our worries about tomorrow, not even the powers of hell can separate us from God's love. (39) No power in the sky above or in the earth below, indeed, nothing in all creation will ever be able to separate us from the love of God that is revealed in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Romans 8:35-39)

We are created beings, and as such we cannot separate ourselves from God's love. We will never 'fall out of favor' or lose our salvation. HOWEVER, this does not mean that we can't turn our back on God. You can accept God (and I mean really accept Him and be born again), then turn your back on him. You will suffer, and you won't pray, but you will still keep your salvation. Think about this: we also turn our backs on God when we sin... the only difference between us and the person mentioned above is that we come back. How long is "too long" to sin against God? Does He have some clock that ticks, and when you're past, he takes some White-Out and erases what He has written? And again, I say... why would God do something that would be negated later? It makes no sense.

People's interpetations of Scripture differ, and I don't have a problem with that. But, your interpretation should be checked against what the rest of the Bible says before you set it in stone. If my interpreation disagrees, it's wrong. Simple as that. I don't believe the idea of losing your salvation goes with the rest of Jesus' teaching, for reasons listed in this post and in my last post.

If you disagree with anything said here, please say so. Promise... I don't bite.

Akiko

[exrockstar]

oh man now we bring Judas in the discssion.

touchy territory.

[dugmando]

Again ex,

I first of all, commend you for your sense of study of the Word. Many do not choose to take time to learn for themselves and seem to base their beliefs only on what others tell them, but with that said if my Pastor mostly preached nuggets of truth surrounded by "fat" as you termed it then its time to find new Pastor. I know I know many Preachers do it and not every word they speak is from God and Study and we must know in whom and what we believe so we must study ourselves.

But if I do not agree with your sense of OSAS does not mean I don't grasp Scripture, As we have discussed (in Luke 9) I see something totally different than you. I see a possibility I can choose myself to look back and not be fit for the kingdom. To me this is saying if I choose to look back, to long for, to lust for, then I am by my own actions wanting the old life and as a dog returning to his own vomit, hence i'm denying the Wonderful Gift God gave me.

If a person who has overcome some addiction such as alchol, drugs, porno and then that person starts looking back have they then really overcome.

I bet you would not trust your family's welfare or your children around them if they where still exhibiting these traits.

Please don't take this statement that I am saying as if I would not trust a person who has truly overcome some addiction I would, I am, for I have overcome some of this in my own life, but if that person keeps looking back that is a different story.

Question if you try to eat something not fit what do you do with it? You throw it out.

I hope and pray you guys are correct with OSAS many good Christians struggle with this.

Most Important thing is not whether we agree but if we can come together and lift each other up in Christ.

way more important than whose right or wrong and if you can't see that then....

Dugmando

[exrockstar]

Again ex,

I first of all, commend you for your sense of study of the Word. Many do not choose to take time to learn for themselves and seem to base their beliefs only on what others tell them, but with that said if my Pastor mostly preached nuggets of truth surrounded by "fat" as you termed it then its time to find new Pastor. I know I know many Preachers do it and not every word they speak is from God and Study and we must know in whom and what we believe so we must study ourselves.

But if I do not agree with your sense of OSAS does not mean I don't grasp Scripture, As we have discussed (in Luke 9) I see something totally different than you. I see a possibility I can choose myself to look back and not be fit for the kingdom. To me this is saying if I choose to look back, to long for, to lust for, then I am by my own actions wanting the old life and as a dog returning to his own vomit, hence i'm denying the Wonderful Gift God gave me.

If a person who has overcome some addiction such as alchol, drugs, porno and then that person starts looking back have they then really overcome.

I bet you would not trust your family's welfare or your children around them if they where still exhibiting these traits.

Please don't take this statement that I am saying as if I would not trust a person who has truly overcome some addiction I would, I am, for I have overcome some of this in my own life, but if that person keeps looking back that is a different story.

Question if you try to eat something not fit what do you do with it? You throw it out.

I hope and pray you guys are correct with OSAS many good Christians struggle with this.

Most Important thing is not whether we agree but if we can come together and lift each other up in Christ.

way more important than whose right or wrong and if you can't see that then....

Dugmando

thank you sir. actually i never knew it was termed OSAS til i read it in this thread.

i used to be a "lose salvation" kind of person but then I started reading on my own and taking seminary classes.

Pastors are just like CEO's they wake up and put on their pants like you and I.

What they know so can we.

It's just a matter of challenging the status quo and ones self.

We all have access to the same information so it's OK to ask a few pastors for different opinions.

we know there is one truth so by siding on one side does not make it truth.

we have to ask and take all information to make decisions.

we are going to be rulers. so how can we rule if we are only used to following...ya know?

alot of this salvation stuff is broken down by Paul very well. every one just reads reads reads but i tell people that

Paul is a smart person. We are talking about a man that persecuted Christians and was called by God.

He didnt get into the technicalities of the gospels and thats where we typically get into discussions.

He had no part of that. He is a little like you and I since he wasnt walking around with Jesus.

Once someone just concentrates on Pauls writings then the rest falls in place. it really does.

well it did for me.

[exrockstar]

Exrockstar, you mentioned taking seminary classes? That explains a lot. Your choice of Bible school will influence the way you interpret the Bible. If you choose a Baptist Bible College, or one with a Calvinistic influence, you will come away believing in OSAS. If you went to a Bible college with a Wesleyan influence, you would come away rejecting OSAS. The school will spin things in a way as to cause a person to come out with their viewpoint.

that's true in what your saying but i wasnt taking classes like i wanted to be some sort of pastor.

I took classes because it was a personal goal to understand and organize my feeling towards them.

I have only taken classes that are just straight forward reading. i have not taken one class that interprets scripture.

students will ask questions that are influenced by what they were raised but our teachers would say "well some people believe because

of so-so and others because of so-so..." to me that is a good teacher. he's being biased.

i was asked to take classes that are interpretation classes but i passed up on them.

honestly the bible isn't supposed to be complicated. WE complicate it.

if a scripture says "believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved..." that is something that

anyone can understand. my nieces can mentally figure that one out.

its the religious ones or the ones that want to keep Christianity for themselves like its a treasure. that complicate things.

pages ago we're talking about vines and cutting branches and pulling plows....

Paul came and talked about grace not of works that any many should boast.

over and over. examples after examples. the Jews found it too easy to just accept that it's believing.

He even told the Galatians:

"Galatians 1:6-8 (King James Version)

6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed."

i guess we're all going to interpret our own thing here...lol. but what Paul is telling the Galatians is that they (we) are saved by Grace and not mix it up with something else. unless an angel appeared from heaven or Paul came back preaching something else then believe it.

in the same book: Gal 2:16 he says "in faith by Jesus Christ...."

the only thing I tell anyone, is to understand what Christ did for you.

I can knock on everyones door in my neighborhood and they'll tell me who

Christ is but have the slightest idea what he did on the cross. that's the tricky part.

anyways Butero I try not to be influenced. If you only knew how much of a stickler I am when getting information.

I question it all.

[Akiko]

Is there any reason no one comments on my posts? If you agree with everything in them, I don't see why we're having this discussion... and if you disagree, please, say something.

[Floatingaxe]

Is there any reason no one comments on my posts? If you agree with everything in them, I don't see why we're having this discussion... and if you disagree, please, say something.

Hi Akiko!

Apparently, it's a man's world here, today!