Cold or Hot

[tsth]

But we need to understand that the nature of a parable is to use symbolisms that are standard to the people being addressed in order to make a point. For instance, Jesus' "I am the Good Shepherd" passage has a lot of imagery that makes little sense to someone who does not understand shepherding practices of His day. One has to learn how shepherds back then guarded and dealt with their flocks to truly catch what Jesus was saying. For that matter, in psalm 23 when David speaks of "green pastures," he was not talking about lush fields - the land was too arid for that - but of patches of greenery amidst the dirt and rock. Understanding this puts a different context to the shepherd leading the flock to food.

Along those lines, if you studied each city Jesus addressed, you would notice that He said key things that spoke directly to the city that fit within their cultural context. In fact, reading any part of the Bible takes on a whole new meaning once you understand the places being mentioned.

So I fail to see how this is a threat to the infalibility of Scripture to intepret it through the eyes of the people and culture the message was first given to.

Dear nebula,

You do make some good points in your post.

In His Love,

Suzanne

[tsth]

After thinking about the pharisees though, I would have to say that they fell in the lukewarm category for being "hypocrites", which I think was considered more intolerable (lukewarm), because they were masqueraders who faked their love for God, whereas IMO, the ones who flat out say they don't and won't believe (cold) , are better off, and are more likely to come to repentance, than a deceiver who says he already has. But again, I'm back to my original post again, aren't I?

In His Love,

Suzanne

[nebula]

whereas IMO, the ones who flat out say they don't and won't believe (cold) , are better off, and are more likely to come to repentance, than a deceiver who says he already has.

Are you sure?

What of Ahab? Herod? John Lennon?

Note again:

3:15 - I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot.

Jesus is talking about their works being cold or hot, not their hearts.

[exrockstar]

Rev3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.

16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

cold and hot are zestos and pychoros in greek.

they are water measurements of temperature or characteristics of a substance.

The waters of Hierapolis provided either healing through the hot springs or medicinal

benefits through drinking it (coldness).

Our mind defaults and thinks Christ is drinking water and "spues" it out

which makes me take on a further question.

Why would Christ place diseased water in His mouth. After all, this is what is being presented here in this lovely thread.

we do know from scripture that we take from Christ, He does not take from us or does He?

so i laid out:

John 4:14

But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall

be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

so what does the Church at Laodecia (or Christians in general) provide to Christ that He takes

us in through His mouth and is presented as symbolism? This has to tie into the entire point of

this letter.

the answer is fruit.

John 15 (King James Version)

14Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

15Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.

16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

we provide fruit for Him. so many lovely scriptures saying this.

this is symbolism at it's best.

He bites, He spits (rejects).

that is what he rejects their fruit :"17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods,

and have need of nothing."

We can get into details here about materialistic minds and how they work but I think we get the point.

we all provide fruit. They will know us by our fruit.

Luke 6:44

For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes.

The different works (fruits) and the things we do are for Him.

They come in different forms and fashions such as the variations of temperature of the waters located

near/at Laodecia.

The Church at Laodecia was providing fruit but Christ was rejecting it.

Christ says "thou sayest I AM rich." I am is that point of view like Cain where he presented what he thought

was good enough in his eyes but God rejected it. (Gen 4:5) you also see arrogance in their behavior/statement, definately

not spiritually mature.

He doesn't reject our salvation but He does reject our fruit (works).

So goes the rest of the letter, Christ giving them a tongue lashing of who they really are and kinda like

"putting them in their place."

i think ive made my point. if ya get it...cool.

Tear it down if ya want but what else can I say?

i honestly dont think this is bad at all.

did this all by myself. Call it whatever name ya want. I never said Shiloh was wrong but I believe

scripture should be presented to strengthen a view. So here is mine.

God bless ya'll

[apothanein kerdos]

whereas IMO, the ones who flat out say they don't and won't believe (cold) , are better off, and are more likely to come to repentance, than a deceiver who says he already has.

Are you sure?

What of Ahab? Herod? John Lennon?

Note again:

3:15 - I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot.

Jesus is talking about their works being cold or hot, not their hearts.

Which of course begs the question, How can one have cold works?

Good observation Nebula.

[tsth]

Good points, good study. I can appreciate the "fruits" aspect, as this does seem to fit with regard to biblical contexts.

These passages seemed appropriate:

Jer. 24:1 After Jehoiachin son of Jehoiakim king of Judah and the officials, the craftsmen and the artisans of Judah were carried into exile from Jerusalem to Babylon by Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, the Lord showed me two baskets of figs placed in front of the temple of the Lord.

Jer 24:2 - Show Context

One basket had very good figs, like those that ripen early; the other basket had very poor figs, so bad they could not be eaten.

Jer 24:3 - Show Context

Then the Lord asked me, "What do you see, Jeremiah?" "Figs," I answered. "The good ones are very good, but the poor ones are so bad they cannot be eaten."

Jer 24:5 - Show Context

"This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: 'Like these good figs, I regard as good the exiles from Judah, whom I sent away from this place to the land of the Babylonians.

Jer 24:8 - Show Context

"'But like the poor figs, which are so bad they cannot be eaten,' says the Lord, 'so will I deal with Zedekiah king of Judah, his officials and the survivors from Jerusalem, whether they remain in this land or live in Egypt.

Jer 29:17 - Show Context

yes, this is what the Lord Almighty says: "I will send the sword, famine and plague against them and I will make them like poor figs that are so bad they cannot be eaten.

Mic 7:1 - Show Context

What misery is mine! I am like one who gathers summer fruit at the gleaning of the vineyard; there is no cluster of grapes to eat, none of the early figs that I crave.

Na 3:12 - Show Context

All your fortresses are like fig trees with their first ripe fruit; when they are shaken, the figs fall into the mouth of the eater.

Mt 7:16 - Show Context

By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?

In His Love,

Suzanne

[exrockstar]

tsth,

that's why He goes further and says "v18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich."

the fruits they were producing would not benefit anyone.

this goes back to:

1 Cor 3:

12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

their works (fruits) were of wood, hay and stubble.

Christ urged them to produce fruit that would reward them with gold.

one could look at it that Christ was being given this "bad fruit" for such a long time that it got to

a point that Christ was tired of it that He was rejecting it. He wanted to make sure that the Laodecains knew.

He's literally telling them that He is spewing it out.

did he not start the letter by saying "i know thy works?"

this is all food for thought.

and to believe, this is just two verses we're covering in this thread. ... 3xR0c|<stAr

[nebula]

Rev3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.

16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

cold and hot are zestos and pychoros in greek.

they are water measurements of temperature or characteristics of a substance.

The waters of Hierapolis provided either healing through the hot springs or medicinal

benefits through drinking it (coldness).

Our mind defaults and thinks Christ is drinking water and "spues" it out

which makes me take on a further question.

Why would Christ place diseased water in His mouth. After all, this is what is being presented here in this lovely thread.

we do know from scripture that we take from Christ, He does not take from us or does He?

so i laid out:

John 4:14

But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall

be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

so what does the Church at Laodecia (or Christians in general) provide to Christ that He takes

us in through His mouth and is presented as symbolism? This has to tie into the entire point of

this letter.

the answer is fruit.

Problem -

Jesus said He would prefer the church to be cold or hot. As drinking water, which would be preferable? Cold, correct? (Who drinks hot water? Well, unflavored, anyway.)

You see, you are mixing metaphors.

In the case of fruit, there is either good or bad. There is not in between.

In the case of Laodicea, both cold and hot are good, but lukewarm is bad. Therefore, both cold and hot are considered good. Correct?

So then, how can one who openly rejects the Gospel be considered "good fruit"? Do you have any idea how many Scriptures this notion violates?

[Pilgrim7]

Greetings Suzanne and all,

Jesus is quite clear in His statement. He said what He meant and meant what He said.

He says:

Rev 3:15 I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot: I would you were cold or hot.

3:16 So then because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue you out of my mouth. (this is a promise)

Lukewarm people have lukewarm hearts that produce lukewarm works. The issue is the condition of the heart. This lukewarm condition of heart comes from the lack of the Holy Spirit dwelling in the heart. The Spirit is the fire of God dwelling within the heart. This fire produces a 'hot Christian' with 'hot works'. What Jesus is saying is that these people are just 'playing church', without the unction of His Holy Spirit. He has provided all they need to be 'hot', but they have rejected it and are content with a 'form of Godliness without the Power of God'. Jesus will reject those who are not 'zealous in repentance'.

They don't understand His instruction to 'buy of Him', all the things that they don't have. They think that they have all they need and are pleasing God, when just the opposite is true. All the things that they are told to buy, are the essence of salvation, all provided by the indwelling Holy Spirit. They are in the worst delusion of all, they think that they are saved and guarateeed entrance to heaven, when in reality, they are the ones that Jesus says, 'depart from me, I never knew you'.

Rev 3:17 Because you say, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and know not that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked:

3:18 I counsel you to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that you may be rich; and white garments, that you may be clothed, and that the shame of your nakedness does not appear; and anoint your eyes with eyesalve, that you may see.

3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

One of the main causes of this condition is the practice of 'head conversion' in lieu of 'heart conversion'. In 'heart conversion, Jesus comes to dwell in the heart, making one 'hot' for God. In 'head conversion', only theories enter the head, which have no power to change the heart, thus one can be at best, only lukewarn. Such are the 'leaky wineskins' that Jesus told us about. The 'new wine' requires 'new wineskins', born of the Spirit, in order to hold the 'new wine'.

Now we tell the 'lukewarm', leaky wineskin', that He is OSAS. This makes him impermeable to the warning of Jesus here. Jesus says 'I will vomit you out', and his Pastor tells him/her that he/she has 'eternal security' now. Voila, the 'delusion that they should believe a lie', and in the end, Jesus says, 'depart from me, you who work iniquity'.

God Bless,

Dennis

[nebula]

Jer 24:2 - Show Context

One basket had very good figs, like those that ripen early; the other basket had very poor figs, so bad they could not be eaten.

Jer 24:3 - Show Context

Then the Lord asked me, "What do you see, Jeremiah?" "Figs," I answered. "The good ones are very good, but the poor ones are so bad they cannot be eaten."

Jer 24:5 - Show Context

"This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: 'Like these good figs, I regard as good the exiles from Judah, whom I sent away from this place to the land of the Babylonians.

Jer 24:8 - Show Context

"'But like the poor figs, which are so bad they cannot be eaten,' says the Lord, 'so will I deal with Zedekiah king of Judah, his officials and the survivors from Jerusalem, whether they remain in this land or live in Egypt.

Again, here, there are only two sets of fruit: one good and one bad. There is no third group.

In what Jesus said to the Laodiceans, both cold and hot were good, but lukewarm was bad.

Again, this goes back to the water the people are familiar with. Cold is good because it refreshes. Hot is good because it brings healing (note: hot water is not used for drinking in this way). Thus both cold and hot are lumped together as "good works", or good fruit. The works that are like the lukewarm water are the "bad works," or bad fruit.

thus, cold and hot are not conditions of the heart.