apothanein kerdos Posted June 11, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 331 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 8,713 Content Per Day: 1.21 Reputation: 21 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/28/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted June 11, 2007 It's interesting how ID causes such reactions from different people. If it's so wrong, why is it viewed as such a threat? Hmmm...that must be because it is a threat....and maybe it's not soooo wrong. Otherwise, why would people react like this....? Call it science, don't call it science. It's touching a nerve that's creating a frenzy of fear. The odd thing is it takes a burst of anger for them to let their guard down enough to reveal what is in their heart about the belief in God. For years, this man has offered respect to people of religion, so long as they don't tear apart science. OK, it gets difficult with the whole "origins" debate. But until then, his attacks were focused more on the "attacks against science." But at this juncture, he did directly attack the belief in God/Creator. This to me showed that the heart of the issue truly was about knowing God. Atheists will say, "Believe what you want." But if you push them just right, they will declare how much they cannot stand your belief in God, so much that they truly are trying to take it away from you. It is very eye-opening once you see it in action. Have either of you read Behe's new book "On the Edge of Evolution"? More applicable to what both of you are talking about, however, would probably be Allister McGrath's "The Dawkins Delusion" It's nice to be able to discuss ID with some people instead of debate it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
undone Posted June 11, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 45 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 819 Content Per Day: 0.13 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/01/2006 Status: Offline Author Share Posted June 11, 2007 "If we go back to the beginning we shall find that ignorance and fear created the gods; that fancy, enthusiasm, or deceit adorned or disfigured them; that weakness worships them; that credulity preserves them, and that custom, respect and tyranny support them in order to make the blindness of men serve its own interests." ~ Baron d'Holbach Yep...heard this before...not in those exact words, but through the attitudes and responses of many atheists I've run accross on Worthy and other boards. I bet you can find T-Shirts and bumper stickers with this printed on it at your local atheist gear shop. So Baron Holdback succeeded in holdin' back alot of innocent folks. He probably had strict Christian parents and he was going through a rebellious phase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted June 11, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.76 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.95 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted June 11, 2007 AK - Have you ever read Darwin on Trial by Phillip E. Johnson? I think you could get some milage out of it, since you're the skilled debator. He, as a lawyer, describes quite well how the language of evolution (the way evolutionists argue and describe evolution) establishes itself up such that it cannot be questioned or challenged. Believers fail in advancing our perspective (no matter what form of "Creation" we ascribe to) because we have not learned how to play this "language game" as I call it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apothanein kerdos Posted June 11, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 331 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 8,713 Content Per Day: 1.21 Reputation: 21 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/28/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted June 11, 2007 AK - Have you ever read Darwin on Trial by Phillip E. Johnson? I think you could get some milage out of it, since you're the skilled debator. He, as a lawyer, describes quite well how the language of evolution (the way evolutionists argue and describe evolution) establishes itself up such that it cannot be questioned or challenged. Believers fail in advancing our perspective (no matter what form of "Creation" we ascribe to) because we have not learned how to play this "language game" as I call it. I've read it and I loved it. Phil is a very good man and kind. Though his Darwin on Trial is one of his more popular books, he considers Reason in the Balance to be the most important. It covers the consequences of Darwinism left unchecked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted June 12, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.76 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.95 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted June 12, 2007 I'll have to look into that - thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
undone Posted June 12, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 45 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 819 Content Per Day: 0.13 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/01/2006 Status: Offline Author Share Posted June 12, 2007 I suppose one of the reasons I posted this topic was to examine the cause and effect of this particular issue. As a body of believers, what are we doing to cause unneeded defections? I can tell you that I've asked our church youth group, on occasion, "why are you Christians?". You can instantly see question marks pop up over their heads. I then ask, "why did you get saved, if you've already done so"? Replies vary from, 'their parents made them', to 'wanted to do it before the last youth pastor left', to 'I don't know'. None of them seem to give solid answers. With this being the case, you have to believe that we are setting them up for failure when they leave the nest and head out on their own. When most of the graduate high school, they don't come to the youth group anymore, many go to liberal universities and fall prey to atheist friendly teaching and teachers. It's no wonder. They're still babies in many ways. My daughter calls from college (University of Texas - Tyler) from time to time to talk about these types of issues she comes across. The place she encounters error the most in when a group of her friends gather and start to talk about faith and religion. The latest is a discussion on whether or not Hell acutually exists. The prevailing opinion of the group was that it doesn't and they gave a list of reasons why. My daughter's like, but the bible says so and so. They dismiss her counsel and she, at the very least, is thinking, "well, they make a good point". Of course I'm all over it and correct what she's telling me. But you can see the problem. She's not going to risk losing friends in a place she otherwise would feel alone. So she let's 'em think what they want. In the meantime, we're cranking out teen after teen that understands little about why their Christians. I believe some basic apologetics needs to be a primary emphasis in our youth curriculum. I realize we're mostly concerned with getting them there, settling them down, and make them think it was cool to be there. There are some apologetic learning materials out there that most kids I've been involved with teaching that can really grab their attention and help make them think. At the very least, they need to have some of this information in their minds so that when they get confronted with error, they can recall that they heard something different from their parents or youth pastor and hold on to it, even if they can't quite remember what it was, until they can get to someone who can help them sort it out. Cause and effect. There's two basic reasons people do or don't do something. One, the lack of execution. Two, the lack of knowledge. We need to be equipping our youth with the tool of knowledge so that we eliminate that reason. They'll have to choose to execute what they've learned. That's my two cents... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apothanein kerdos Posted June 12, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 331 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 8,713 Content Per Day: 1.21 Reputation: 21 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/28/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted June 12, 2007 I suppose one of the reasons I posted this topic was to examine the cause and effect of this particular issue. As a body of believers, what are we doing to cause unneeded defections? I can tell you that I've asked our church youth group, on occasion, "why are you Christians?". You can instantly see question marks pop up over their heads. I then ask, "why did you get saved, if you've already done so" ? Replies vary from, their parents made them, to wanted to do before the last youth pastor left, to 'I don't know'. None of them seem to give solid answers. With this being the case, you have to believe that we are setting them up for failure when they leave the nest and head out on their own. They don't come to the youth group anymore, many go to liberal universities and fall prey to atheist friendly teaching and teachers. It's no wonder. They're still babies in many ways. My daughter calls from college (University of Texas - Tyler) from time to time to talk about these types of issues she comes across. The place she encounters error the most in when a group of her friends gather and start to talk about faith and religion. The latest is a discussion on whether or not Hell acutually exists. The prevailing opinion of the group was that it doesn't and they gave a list of reasons why. My daughter's like, but the bible says so and so. They dismiss her counsel and she, at the very least, is thinking, "well, they make a good point". Of course I'm all over it and correct what she's telling me. But you can see the problem. She's not going to risk losing friends in a place she otherwise would feel alone. So she let's 'em think what they want. In the meantime, we're cranking out teen after teen that understands little about why their Christians. I believe some basic apologetics needs to be a primary emphasis in our youth curriculum. I realize we're mostly concerned with getting them there, settling them down, and make them think it was cool to be there. There are some apologetic learning materials out there that most kids I've been involved with teaching that can really grab their attention and help make them think. At the very least, they need to have some of this information in their minds so that when they get confronted with error, they can recall that they heard something different from their parents or youth pastor and hold on to it, even if they can't quite remember what it was, until they can get to someone who can help them sort it out. Cause and effect. There's two basic reasons people do or don't do something. One, the lack of execution. Two, the lack of knowledge. We need to be equipping our youth with the tool of knowledge so that we eliminate that reason. They'll have to choose to execute what they've learned. That's my two cents... If you deal with youth, I'd highly recommend this book. If you want to read the "advanced version" you can find it here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted June 12, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.76 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.95 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted June 12, 2007 It really is hard to believe the church as a whole in America doesn't know how to raise disciples. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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