Who is Israel?

[st. Worm]

Israel = the NT Church of all Believers (The Israel of God)

and

Israel = a country in the Middle East that is our political ally.

OT Israel is gone, a type and shadow of the New Testament church. The temple is gone. The sacrifices are gone, completed and fulfilled at the cross. The judicial OT law is gone. The ceremonial law is gone. The Prophets are gone. The baptism into Moses is gone and replaced by baptism into Jesus. Jesus has come and now there is no distinction between Jew and Gentile. Unbelieving Jews now take their place with unbelieving Gentiles. God has made his final move against sin. It is finished. The gospel is here in its fullness. Amen, amen and amen. Praise God.

sw

[Vickilynn]

Israel = the NT Church of all Believers (The Israel of God)

and

Israel = a country in the Middle East that is our political ally.

OT Israel is gone, a type and shadow of the New Testament church. The temple is gone. The sacrifices are gone, completed and fulfilled at the cross. The judicial OT law is gone. The ceremonial law is gone. The Prophets are gone. The baptism into Moses is gone and replaced by baptism into Jesus. Jesus has come and now there is no distinction between Jew and Gentile. Unbelieving Jews now take their place with unbelieving Gentiles. God has made his final move against sin. It is finished. The gospel is here in its fullness. Amen, amen and amen. Praise God.

sw

Shalom SW,

Sorry, it doesn't work that way. The Church is the Church. It will never be Israel.

The Church is made up of born-again Believers, Jew and Gentile.

Israel, the people, the nation, the [b physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob will forever be Israel and FOREVER belong to G-d.

The Gospel went out to the Gentiles and it is the hope that this will in turn cause Israel (the nation, the people) to turn to their Messiah, - Jesus.

Paul says this very clearly in Romans. Israel is not gone, they are very much alive. Paul agonized over them and their salvation, as we should. And the Gentiles should not be "arrogant" towards the natural branches.

18 do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you.

Romans 11

I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew.

11So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. 12Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean!

13Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry 14in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them. 15For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead? 16 If the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole lump, and if the root is holy, so are the branches.

28As regards the gospel, they are enemies of God for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. 29For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30For just as) you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, 31so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy. 32For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.

[Guest]

"At the same time, saith the LORD, will I be the God of all the families of Israel, and they shall be my people.

Thus saith the LORD, The people which were left of the sword found grace in the wilderness; even Israel, when I went to cause him to rest.

The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee."

Jeremiah 31:1-3

Jesus has come and now there is no distinction between Jew and Gentile

Beloved Brother

You Have Got To Be Teasing.

The Whole World Knows Who The Jews, Messianic Or Not, Are.

The Whole World Knows The Jew Are Still A Separate People.

But thou hast cast off, and put us to shame; and goest not forth with our armies.

Thou makest us to turn back from the enemy: and they which hate us spoil for themselves.

Thou hast given us like sheep appointed for meat; and hast scattered us among the heathen.

Psalms 44:9-11

I Have Neighbors Who Know Nothing About Anything Religious And Yet They Still Hatefully Think The Jew Somehow The Cause Of All The Evil In The World.

Thou makest us a reproach to our neighbours, a scorn and a derision to them that are round about us.

Thou makest us a byword among the heathen, a shaking of the head among the people.

My confusion is continually before me, and the shame of my face hath covered me,

Psalms 44:13-15

The LORD Jesus Will Come Back To Rule From Jerusalem, The City Of David.

The Remnant I Believe Are Jews Who Know Their Messiah.

The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

Joel 2:31-31

I Was Raised On The Complete Holy Bible From My Youth.

The Old Testament Folk Were As Real And As Dear To Me As Were My Aunts And Uncles And Neighbors.

For The Last Twenty-five Or So Years God Has Broken My Heart For His Israel.

As First I did Not Know What Was Happening Except I Could Clearly See The Killing Machines Forming Again Just As They Did In WW II.

But Now The Pending Holocaust Appeared To Be Forming Into A Total World Wide Effort.

I Was Vexed To Anger And To Tears.

I have not Opened My Bible For A While But I Started Searching The "Minor" Prophets Just To Be Sure The LORD Would Come Back And Save His Beloved Israel.

I Found He Is Still Faithful.

He Lead Me To A Messianic Ministry To Pray For.

He Showed Me Why I Was So Totally Broken For The Physical And For The Spiritual Welfare Of The Children Of Abraham, Isaac And Jacob.

Was I Ever Surprised.

Am I Ever Blessed.

Thank You Lord.

I have set watchmen upon thy walls, O Jerusalem, which shall never hold their peace day nor night: ye that make mention of the LORD, keep not silence,

And give him no rest, till he establish, and till he make Jerusalem a praise in the earth.

Isaiah 62:6-7

Israel Herself Appears Not To See The Gathering Storm.

She Still Closes Her Doors To Many Groups Of Jews.

I Believe God Will Gather The Jew To Israel.

I Believe God Will Open Wide The Door.

I Believe God Will Smooth The Way.

Hosanna! Hosanna! Hosanna!

I Weep For The Lost Israelite.

I Rejoice At His Strong Right Arm.

I Weep For The Carnage Yet To Come.

Even So Come Quickly Lord Jesus Come Quickly.

I Believe God Does Not Burden All His Children With All His Ministries All The Time.

A Worker May Carry His Co-workers Continuously Before The Lord In Prayer.

A Sailor May Carry His Shipmates Continuously Before The Lord In Prayer.

A Mother May Carry Her Family Continuously Before The Lord In Prayer.

A Prisoner May Carry His Or Her Inmates Before The Lord In Prayer.

A Gentle May Carry Israel And The Jew Before The Lord In Prayer.

Shortly I Will Rejoice With Seth And Joshua And Ruth And Boaz And Jesse And .......

In the courts of the LORD's house, in the midst of thee, O Jerusalem. Praise ye the LORD.

Psalms 116:19

Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:

The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them.

Numbers 6:24-27

Love, Your Brother Joe

[Vickilynn]

"At the same time, saith the LORD, will I be the God of all the families of Israel, and they shall be my people.

Thus saith the LORD, The people which were left of the sword found grace in the wilderness; even Israel, when I went to cause him to rest.

The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee."

Jeremiah 31:1-3

Jesus has come and now there is no distinction between Jew and Gentile

Beloved Brother

You Have Got To Be Teasing.

The Whole World Knows Who The Jews, Messianic Or Not, Are.

The Whole World Knows The Jew Are Still A Separate People.

But thou hast cast off, and put us to shame; and goest not forth with our armies.

Thou makest us to turn back from the enemy: and they which hate us spoil for themselves.

Thou hast given us like sheep appointed for meat; and hast scattered us among the heathen.

Psalms 44:9-11

I Have Neighbors Who Know Nothing About Anything Religious And Yet They Still Hatefully Think The Jew Somehow The Cause Of All The Evil In The World.

Thou makest us a reproach to our neighbours, a scorn and a derision to them that are round about us.

Thou makest us a byword among the heathen, a shaking of the head among the people.

My confusion is continually before me, and the shame of my face hath covered me,

Psalms 44:13-15

The LORD Jesus Will Come Back To Rule From Jerusalem, The City Of David.

The Remnant I Believe Are Jews Who Know Their Messiah.

The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

Joel 2:31-31

I Was Raised On The Complete Holy Bible From My Youth.

The Old Testament Folk Were As Real And As Dear To Me As Were My Aunts And Uncles And Neighbors.

For The Last Twenty-five Or So Years God Has Broken My Heart For His Israel.

As First I did Not Know What Was Happening Except I Could Clearly See The Killing Machines Forming Again Just As They Did In WW II.

But Now The Pending Holocaust Appeared To Be Forming Into A Total World Wide Effort.

I Was Vexed To Anger And To Tears.

I have not Opened My Bible For A While But I Started Searching The "Minor" Prophets Just To Be Sure The LORD Would Come Back And Save His Beloved Israel.

I Found He Is Still Faithful.

He Lead Me To A Messianic Ministry To Pray For.

He Showed Me Why I Was So Totally Broken For The Physical And For The Spiritual Welfare Of The Children Of Abraham, Isaac And Jacob.

Was I Ever Surprised.

Am I Ever Blessed.

Thank You Lord.

I have set watchmen upon thy walls, O Jerusalem, which shall never hold their peace day nor night: ye that make mention of the LORD, keep not silence,

And give him no rest, till he establish, and till he make Jerusalem a praise in the earth.

Isaiah 62:6-7

Israel Herself Appears Not To See The Gathering Storm.

She Still Closes Her Doors To Many Groups Of Jews.

I Believe God Will Gather The Jew To Israel.

I Believe God Will Open Wide The Door.

I Believe God Will Smooth The Way.

Hosanna! Hosanna! Hosanna!

I Weep For The Lost Israelite.

I Rejoice At His Strong Right Arm.

I Weep For The Carnage Yet To Come.

Even So Come Quickly Lord Jesus Come Quickly.

I Believe God Does Not Burden All His Children With All His Ministries All The Time.

A Worker May Carry His Co-workers Continuously Before The Lord In Prayer.

A Sailor May Carry His Shipmates Continuously Before The Lord In Prayer.

A Mother May Carry Her Family Continuously Before The Lord In Prayer.

A Prisoner May Carry His Or Her Inmates Before The Lord In Prayer.

A Gentle May Carry Israel And The Jew Before The Lord In Prayer.

Shortly I Will Rejoice With Seth And Joshua And Ruth And Boaz And Jesse And .......

In the courts of the LORD's house, in the midst of thee, O Jerusalem. Praise ye the LORD.

Psalms 116:19

Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:

The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them.

Numbers 6:24-27

Love, Your Brother Joe

Shalom Joe,

Your posts are so amazing! G-d bless you!!

[Guest shiloh357]

Israel = the NT Church of all Believers (The Israel of God)

That is not how Paul uses the term. "Israel of God" only refers to Jewish believers. When examining the context of Galatians six, which is the only time the phrase is used, the context is not one in which Paul is trying to define the Church. He is not referring to the Church at large.

"Galatians 6:16

[Fraught]

Replacement Theology. The Church and Israel are always treated seperately. The Church has not, does not, and will not replace Israel, as a country, or as a people. There are specific prophecies yet to be fulfilled when it comes to Israel, and God always keeps His promises.

Amen brother!

So many are taking their eyes off of the truth.

I do not want to take my eyes off the truth. I want to find the truth of God, but not the truth of man

[Fraught]

I am nearly convinced that the church is Israel, which of course implies that the present day nation of Israel is not so important in the end times events. The geographic area of the place, sure. I believe it is the center of the earth and near where it all began. Can any of you consider that when God speaks of bringing Israel together, he means us? I would appreciate knowing what you think?

Fraught -

You have two good responses already. Listen to the wisdom in them.

It's good to ask the question because it requires study to answer.

The term "Replacement Theology" was mentioned in one of them. It is the technical term given to the teaching that becuase Isra'el rejected the Messiah, God has taken all of the promises He made to them and given them to the Church. But this makes God a liar - one who breaks His everlasting covenants.

Truly the Church is - by faith - of the seed of Abraham.

But Paul makes it clear that God has not abandoned Isra'el. Read Romans chapter 11.

Has God cast away His people? Certainly not... God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew... Even so then, there is a remnant according to the election of grace... I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles. Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness! For if their casting away brings the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance bring, but life from the dead? Romans 11:1 - 15

And in his next breath, Paul specifically responds to teachers of Replacement Theology.

And if some of the branches were broken off so that you, a wild olive tree, could be grafted in among them, and - with them - become a partaker of the root and fatness of the Olive Tree, do not boast against these branches... you do not support the root, the root supports you... And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature and were grafted contrary to your nature into a good Olive Tree, how much more will these, who are the natural branches, be grafted into their own tree? ... For I do not desire that you be ignorant of this mystery that the hardening has happened to Isra'el until the fullness of the Gentiles has come. And so, all Isra'el will be saved ... Romans 11:17 - 26

the operative sentence?: if they do not continue in their unbelief

Also note the separation of the 2 tribes Jacob who became the Jews and Israel the northern ten who were scattered.

I promise you I am not trying to argue this. My motive is honest and sincere.

[Fraught]

If the Church is Israel, then all the Scriptures about the children of Israel being gathered from the North, the South, the East and the West to Eretz Israel (the land of Israel) make no sense whatsoever.

Why? The church is scattered all over as well. And I am not being facetious here. My desire to know is honest and sincere.

[Fraught]

I am nearly convinced that the church is Israel, which of course implies that the present day nation of Israel is not so important in the end times events. The geographic area of the place, sure. I believe it is the center of the earth and near where it all began. Can any of you consider that when God speaks of bringing Israel together, he means us? I would appreciate knowing what you think?

Replacement Theology. The Church and Israel are always treated seperately. The Church has not, does not, and will not replace Israel, as a country, or as a people. There are specific prophecies yet to be fulfilled when it comes to Israel, and God always keeps His promises.

What are the prophecies and what makes them specific to Israel?

[Guest shiloh357]

Also note the separation of the 2 tribes Jacob who became the Jews and Israel the northern ten who were scattered.

I promise you I am not trying to argue this. My motive is honest and sincere.

Yes, but the Joining of the northern and southern Kingdoms is mentioned within the context of God restoring national Israel to her biblical homeland in chapter 37 of Ezekiel. There is no hermeneutic possibility that this is referring the Church.

The terms Judah and Epharim are NEVER used in reference to the Church. The church is never referred to as Judah, Ephraim, Jacob, Twelve Tribes, Israel, Zion or any other such term used to refer to the physical descendents of Abraham through Jacob. None of those terms are synonomous with being a Christian or the Church. That is also why the aforementinoed reference to Israel being a "type" of the Church is so fallacious. The Church is never referenced as an antitype of Israel.